my C3C concern.....

[Ision]

The C3C scenarios are getting all the talk and I do understand why. I believe they are a great 'twist' on the standard 'all ages' Civ game. While I am looking foward to playing the C3C scenarios, I have no doubt that my first love will always be a full scale 'from 4000 bc to the end of time' game.

My concern is that the game company has focused so much on the scenarios at the expense of any improvement for the 'classic' civ game.

Has there been any improvement to the classic game? I have not read any post that indicates any changes to the AI, tech tree, unit strengths, ect.... Please don't tell me that C3C is identical to PTW in the 'classic' game in all aspects except the addition of a few new Civs.....

Am I off on this one?

Sincerely,
Ision

[Solver]

It won't be identical for the classic game. Firaxis realise that Civ old-timers still want the 4000 BC till 2000 AD game. This is why all the new feautures that are in C3C also apply to the single player game. That is, new resources, units, civs, governments, Wonders, and all the other stuff, will also work for the "classic" game.

The scenarios are also supposed to add some appeal to the non-hardcore civ gamers, who can be heard claiming that Civ is a great concept, but games are too long.

As far as the AI goes. This is, of course, my favorite area for improvement - and it has been said that Soren will work on further tweaks. I have heard unconfirmed news, too, that the AI will be adapted to play a somewhat decent game at Regicide.

So worry not... you will see all kinds of improvements.

Hope this helps.

[Spiffor]

Changes to the general game:

- 4 new wonders
- New units
- 2 new terrain tiles: Volcanoes and Marshes
- 2 new governments: Feudalism and Fascism
- 2 new difficulty levels
- 2 new city specialists: policeman and civil engineer
- 2 new Civ traits
- 7 new Civs
- Enslave ability for the Mayan and the English UU
- Communication trading and Map trading pushed back to the late Missle Ages.
- Various AI improvements
- Amphibious attacks now twice more powerful.
- Planes have now lethal bombard
- Time spent by industrious workers on a tile improvement now lasts 66% of the normal time, rather than 50%

And I forget some things, but I don't know what.

As you can see, there are quite a few changes to the epic game, and I'm looking forward to them. The new traits are especially appealing to me, and the lethal bombardment given to planes will radically change the way modern wars are fought

[WarpStorm]

In addition, to counteract the lethal bombard some units have an AA capability.

[Solver]

With the AA capability being more important. After all, lethal bombardment was added in many user mods after the patch allowed it, while AA is new.

[GhengisFarb™]

Aren't the Scientific Great Leaders in the main game now as well?

[Solver]

They are.

[Wittlich]

Though I've heard that Multiplay will be apart of C3C, I haven't heard much else about it....especially where PBEM is concerned. I am curious if Firaxis addressed the issue of not knowing who attacked your units when its not your turn. It is a big pain when you start your turn only to find out that some of your units are missing and not knowing (for sure) who attacked them and with what... Has anyone heard anything more concerning this?

[Shogun Gunner]

I can't wait to see these new changes!!!

[Solver]

I will be interested to see which changes does the game bring... currently, I love Civ 3 completely up to the Industrial era, but after that, problems start appearing. You don't really have much to do except for moving workers around, starting wars is worthless at this point, and modern age isn't balanced.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Wittlich
It is a big pain when you start your turn only to find out that some of your units are missing and not knowing (for sure) who attacked them and with what...

I did it. It was me. I used my Deathstar to zap your units on that silly little moon you have colonized.

Muwhahahahhaah.

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by Solver
starting wars is worthless at this point

Really? That's my favorite time to start wars in Civ3. You can often get everyone into the action. Oh well, different strokes...

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Solver
I will be interested to see which changes does the game bring... currently, I love Civ 3 completely up to the Industrial era, but after that,

I agree, my enthusiasm for the game drops like a rock at the dawn of the Industrial Age.

[Wittlich]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb

I did it. It was me. I used my Deathstar to zap your units on that silly little moon you have colonized.

Muwhahahahhaah.

That's what I'm worried about!

[Solver]

Originally posted by WarpStorm


Really? That's my favorite time to start wars in Civ3. You can often get everyone into the action. Oh well, different strokes...

I do actually agree. Industrial is the most fun time to start a war because you can get a big one... with 8 or 10 ore more countries in it. Hundreds of units, that's cool.

My point is, there's no real reason to start a war. You probably got some decent territory already, you have the resources, you have everything. And wars aren't cost-effective. Suppose you can gain control of one additional luxury if you win the war... but the cost will usually be greater than the reward. And wars are thus too risky.

This is why in the Industrial Age, I get less enthusiastic... although theoretically, I'd enjoy the modern times more.

[ChaotikVisions]

Bah, the cost is greater then the reward? Nonsense! Wars are about subjucating your neighbors, and running your own policy of Manifest Destiny. I love building up, then justifying my actions for invading another country on something like them being Commies. Then you can't stop there, they've got friends in it. So you've got to drag all your artillery to Indias capitol and bombard it from size 20+ to 2. Then just for fun, you raze all of Scandanvia. Its moments like those that makes Civ3 fun, heh.

But more on topic, from the sounds of everything it should add a good deal to the classic Civ game. Can't wait for CSC to come out.

[Wittlich]

Though I agree with your line of thought in principle Chaotik, I too get the feeling that even though you have cooler toys (ie, units) to play with in the late game...the game does seem to turn into being a little monotonous...

[GhengisFarb™]

It becomes more a game of who can outproduce who, and with Railroads who attacks first. More of a slugfest and less of strategy.

[Solver]

Well, usually, you're dominant in the Industrial Age. Either doomed or dominant.

I do usually find myself in the situation when I'm the most powerful, and one country is pretty close to me. For the fun of it, though, I may try to ally with everyone against that other country, and wipe it... but even though Tanks, Bombers and others are fun, economically, not going to war is a better choice.

Just use maths. The upkeep you pay for an offensive military is one. The time that your core cities spend producing military during the war is two. Potential issues with happiness are three. Any productive tiles or cities you lose are four. And the benefits are fewer.

I have found that going defensive in Industrial pays off more. That is, make sure that my cities are defended with Infantry, but only have very little attacking forces. A few Cavalry or Tanks later, and a bit of Artillery... but only enough to drive the invaders from my land. And I would end up with most cities having every improvement...

[WarpStorm]

That may be more efficient, Solver, but I like to draw the game into a World War and win by a combination of diplomacy, culture, and domination. Just me.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by WarpStorm
That may be more efficient, Solver, but I like to draw the game into a World War and win by a combination of diplomacy, culture, and domination. Just me.

[Theseus]

Man... I can't wait.

[Solver]

Good point WarpStorm. I was just poitning out the actual, mathematical benefits.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Actually speaking of Wars in the Industrial and Modern Ages-What if you've claimed LOTS of territory, but you find yourself with no coal, no oil no rubber or even-NO URANIUM!!!! Worse still, what if your neighbours have it?! Plus, when I was playing the game (before my computer crashed), I used to set the disappearance for late-game resources slightly higher than normal so that, even if you got them, you might not have them for long-giving a great impetus for war! Anyway I don't mind late-game wars myself, even if there are no resources involved!!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[vmxa1]

NO URANIUM!!!! who cares about that? I can't recall the last time I used a nuke.

[Solver]

You need it to build the spaceship .

[Brundlefly]

My concern about c3c scenarios is: can I play them out of the box? It seemed like every PTW scenario shipped with that game was useless by itself and you needed to d/l current version online - so why even bother shipping scenarios if you have to go through this trouble?

[Brundlefly]

sorry to go o-t for a second, but Solver could you change your avatar to 'Smoking Man as he gets hit by helicopter rocket' (from last x-files episode)

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Solver
You need it to build the spaceship .

Like I said who cares, never have that turned on either. Only Dom and Conquest. Only in AU games do I have those other paths on.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Feephi
My concern about c3c scenarios is: can I play them out of the box? It seemed like every PTW scenario shipped with that game was useless by itself and you needed to d/l current version online - so why even bother shipping scenarios if you have to go through this trouble?

There is a difference here.

The extra PTW content was user made mods pulled off the 'net and slapped on the CD with no regard paid to playtesting.

The "Conquests" in C3C are "professionally designed" scenarios that are being playtested in house by Firaxis/Atari/Breakaway and therefore should work out of the box.