Second Front Feedback

[Captain Nemo]

Xin Ju:
Don't research anything! The techs are all given by events. Cash on the other hand is great. Speedbuilding units in English cities that cannot finish them in one turn is a good idea as is building USMV repair facilities in France to repair damaged units. As new units arrive in the next turns they will start taking the production away from the British cities so ultimately those units should be relocated and re-homed in French cities... 4 Fuel-trucks per turn should fill the Fuel depots in French cities.

Do Fuel convoys deliver more if the sending city is big or the receiving city is big? I thought it was 5 rows in the receiving city no matter how big the city?

The two types of shells are designed to target different types of units. With this scenario I think I have established that missile attacks are ONLY controlled by the relative cost of the units.
The 15cm and 210mm shells target different cost units. The 15cm WILL go after LCVPs when you put some of the more expensive units in them. The LCTs are so expensive they get attacked whether full or empty. Later in the game (I will give this away, you can look up the date in any WWII history book) the Germans start attacking the British cities with V-1s and they actually do attack the cities which I never was able to do with my Desert Storm scenario (SCUDs against Patriots) because I didn't understand the mechanics of missile attacks.

Regarding the missiles being blocked, watch out. The AI cheats and will move missiles through walls of planes. I tried to surround a ship with a chain of planes leaving no openings but leaving one square inside the circle open... Well the missiles appeared in there!

Regarding the DD tanks you should have gotten a message? "DD tanks launched too far from coast sink in rough seas" I have tried to make this scenario EXTREMELY historical so many messages are there to report historical facts. All but 2 of the 30-some DD tanks launched to support the Omaha Beach landings sank at sea. On Utah beach the DDs were launched closer to the shore and made it to the beach (The small island of St Marcouf should provide protection against the dreaded Trireme syndrome)

Sten:
You got a good idea about the hedgerows. Attacking the Germans there will not be very successful but using them to your advantage is the right approach.

Case:
1. On the Air Force joining the Land Forces I am dead set against it. Landing in small villages on the coast is completely unrealistic. Also the Air Force is deadly once you get into a groove. It is not just attack the nearest unit or try to empty a city. It is more of a tool to deplete the German reinforcements, block their advances and prevent them from bringing tanks up... The Airforce will eventually get places to land in France

2. Beach mines are not subs, because if they were they would give you a chance not to attack them when you attempt to move into their square. They are simply naval missiles drawn as a piece of ocean. You can detect them one way... and also guarantee that you don't run into them. You might figure it out.

3. More of the Map should be revealed to the Airforce and the idea of the Allies and Airforce exchanging maps sounds good. Need to look into it to avoid creating other problems.

4. The B/W stripes were the hallmark of the entire Normandy Campaign... But B-26s were used on D-Day. Of course. My experience is that the entire challenge of getting past the beaches on D-Day dissappears if you get any more help from the Air Force. Also the amount of air attacks you would be able to deliver on a 11 turn D-Day is the same as you get in the following 11 days... (Because after part 1 the game timeline becomes 1 turn = 1 day) Too much.

A good book? D-Day by Stephen Ambrose and Citizen Soldiers (June 7-May 1945) by the same author. Excellent books on the American Army in Europe.

MagyarCrusader:
D-Day objectives besides the ones you got:
Pointe du Hoc (That tech comes with the destruction of the 240mm battery on the cliff)
Arromanches (VERY IMPORTANT, that's where the second Mulberry was built)
Bayeux (Can be captured on D-Day or early in part II)
Le Hamel
Lion s/Mer
Isigny
Carentan

The achievable techs are:

-5 beaches (Omaha, Utah, Gold, Sword, Juno)
-Pointe du Hoc
-Mulberry Design
-Coleville Draw
-Bayeux
-US-British Link-up
-Omaha-Utah Link-up (Not likely on D-Day)

You should get at least 7, the Mulberry & Colleville are probably the most important.

[klesh]

Ummm, guys tell me if I'm wrong. I got to turn 11 and folowed the new file loading procedure (not exiting the game) and when I came back to the game from the explorer, the option to "load game" was not highlighted on the pulldown menu!?! I have prior saves to revert to but did you guys (MGE) have this problem? I hope not...

Nemo, I didn't even see that 240mm battery on my map until you mention it. It was unexplored, and I had to cheat to find it...

Of the techs, I don't have Pointe du Hoc (obviously), Omaha Utah link up, or Bayeux.

Of the cities, I don't have Isigny, Carentan, or Bayeux. Now that I know I'm supposed to attack these places, I have something to work for on my next couple of turns besides fortifying until the next phase.

I hope that battery isn't to hard to kill, because I have to work quite a ways to get there.

One more thing, should I build Mulberry harbor in phase 1? I have enough money to complete it this turn.

Thanks for your help!
[This message has been edited by MagyarCrusader (edited October 05, 2000).]

[Xin Yu]

Captain Nemo: a food caravan gives 5 rows of food, or 5*(size+1) icons. So the larger the city size, the more food from a caravan. However there is a shield support problem and a happiness problem as well, so a city cannot support too many units.

Barracks are pretty expensive. I plan to disband some infantries to add to the production.

Also I'll send a food caravan to each of the 4 air force cities so they get food surplus and can grow using 'WLTKD'. Just don't know if the cities have sewing systems or not. You have set the limit to be 8 instead 12 so without them the cities can't grow. As for the army cities, they grow pretty fast even without the 'WLTKD'.

Missile attack: I think if you give the transports a positive attack factor then the missiles will attack them. I don't know it is cost related.

[klesh]

I think I'm ok... I build the Mullberry Wonder in Arromanches, and the little icons came up. Text is updating as the turns pass as well. I think it's ok.

The freshly released panzers are costing my dearly. The Brits are waivering under the steady tide of armor on their left flank. I've lost controll of Coursulles and Le Hamel, leaving Lion-Sur-Mere isolated. I was able to reinforce the northernmost beachhead at La Madeline. Hoping for a breakout to Brevands and then Carentan.
With the help of the heavy bombers I was able to break the deadlock at Colleville, but I cannot utalize the 2nd Mullberry at St Laurent, because it's still in German hands. Arromanches has just recieved a fresh shipment of supplies, but I don't know how much offensive work I'll be able to do.
Thinking of starting over...
I was able to take Bayeux. Got a few of the beach secured techs, as well as British-American linkup.
I really want to play this with my new FW! I know no one who plays Civ. Gonna have to make another purchase.

[Sten Sture]

Ambrose's D-Day book is excellent...

Further Xinification of the scenario would occur if the Battleships and their shells were Airforce controlled - that way they couldn't land in the French liberated cities. In fact all of the non-landing craft could report up through the Air Forces under Mallory.

[Cal]

D-day is almost over, I've done well, I think.

I managed to achieve all available tects except for the Omaha-Utah Link-up. I was working on taking Carentan, but I ran out of good attack units and couldn't call in an air strike. The only city that got recaptured was Langrune, and I managed to take that back the next turn. Very fun, maybe more-so than Red Front, as none of that difficult stuff like Economics or City Management gets in the way.

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

[Cal]

Ok, I finished D-day with 18 Allied Objectives.

Life is good...

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

[Stefu]

Oh yes, one thing that would be important (perhaps even so imprtant that Nemo would answer to my post ) is that there should be backup of sf.sav, in case some people would want to replay the scenario. I did mine in first opportunity, of course That file would be loaded when you use the editor to load graphics and rules for first part, of course.

[Jonicro]

Im in the beginning of part 2 and noticed one problem.

In game.txt it says i should capture Caen as soon as possible and this is what i did but nothing happened. No tech, message or anything. Then i checked those event-files and noticed that only events related to Caen are in part 4.

So is it meant to be so human player isnt able to capture Caen before part 4? Atleast i was able to do this with using something like 10 veteran artillerys and all bombers in the area.

[Cal]

You checked the events files? The readme said not to, you know...

I think... historically, Caen was not taken at that time, how did you manage to take it? Which version of the game are you playing?

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

[Jonicro]

Well yes...i checked those event files but only to see why i didnt get any message from taking that city.

Im playing MGE version. I managed to take the city with moving all available artillery to Bretteville. From there it takes only 1 movement point to suburbs of Caen so you can attack with full power. Right in the beginning of part 2 when you get to use those bombers and german tanks havent yet arrived its quite an easy task to take the city. Nemo, one easy way to make this a lot harder would be taking of that urban hex from 105,77.

[Sten Sture]

What does everyone think about the combat engineer unit's alpine movement? I feel like I got a little too much out of those guys on the first couple of turns. With the recommendation an above post (MaygarCr) I used the Mustangs to help the destroyers clear beach mines, and that allowed me to get all of my rangers and ceebees to the coast intact. With alpine movement they were able to wipe out several of the shore batteries on turn 2, before they had fired a shot.

Sharing maps via the diplo menu might be nice every 5 turns or so at first and possibly more frequently later - every turn would be too much I think.

[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited October 05, 2000).]

[Xin Yu]

Sharing maps? that will open a window for gifting ground units to the airforce for occupying a city, and trade techs so that the ground civ can produce air planes...

[Sten Sture]

bah - right, no way to avoid that. Map sharing has to be completely out.

Maybe a recon plane that had fighter type movement and no where to land on the first turn - that might allow some limited map discovery without sharing all info. But those might be able to just bump into mines unless they had a 1a or something. There are two open slots in the first rules.txt...

Xin - what do you think about the combat eng movement?

[Cal]

Which civ got the Apollo Wonder? That would solve the map problem, but only for either the airforce or the ground forces. Hmm... it's a difficult problem.

[Xin Yu]

SS: engineer alpine flag makes the game somewhat easier. Use a 'boarding party' of a ranger and an engineer to attack costal batteries was very effective.

The first turn I have my gliders/commandos landed on a lightly defended city and waited there. Then I sent a combat engineer and some commandos to the city (takes 3 turns). On turn 5 I use the gliders to paradrop the engineer to the 'Atlantic Wall' city and kill the command post inside the city, thus I'll get the city and the wonder. The alpine flag saves me two turns.

Use planes to patrol the seashore and kill the mines. Have a sheet of paper and write down the coordinates of the river mines, cities, batteries, and safe landing positions (a safe landing position is surrounded by water and barb wire hence nobody can attack you immediately).

Some planes can reach France in one turn. Keep the battlefield within the range so you can use them for 3 turns instead of 1. Never attack stacked units with planes.
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited October 06, 2000).]

[Sten Sture]

quote: Originally posted by Captain Nemo on 10-03-2000 09:14 PM One of my testplayers said "Be careful with those gliders, Xin Yu is sure to find a way to misuse them"...

LoL. I can hear Captain Nemo cursing you from here!

What would it take to keep you from successfully doing that one? I assume increasing the defensive units in the close-to-glider cities would suffice - easy enough.

I have changed my mind on wanting the engineers to have reduced movement - if you lose some to mines, you can lose a lot to coastal bombardment.

I kinda wish there were fewer mines, or they wouldn't show up through the events.txt. I would be willing to risk losing some units to random collisions, but I tried once to run through the landing with out clearing it first and I lost 60% of my first wave - yikes. It doesn't feel right to take them out with planes. And it is tempting to check for them in crucial situations.

[Xin Yu]

SS: actually I messed it up with another city. I did take the 'Atlantic Walls' once, but couldn't remember it clearly after playing the first several turns a hundred times.

The only thing works for a command post (a=1, not 0) is veteran heavy artillaries. I paradroped all vet artillaries available to the city and took it. The engineer was used to occupy the German air field city close to it. It took me 3 artillaries to take out one command post inside the city. 105 Howitzer M7 works too but are less effective.

[Cal]

According to the World Wonders menu, the atlantic wall wonder is in Le Havre, which looks like a very large city that could never be taken until it came time to do so. How did you manage to capture that?

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal
[This message has been edited by Cal (edited October 07, 2000).]

[Xin Yu]

Cal: on turn 1, use gliders to land your commandos on a city Southeast of your starting point (the city is one square inside the dark area, use the paradrop icon to detect it) and take it. then land your gliders inside and fortify the commandos (buy an anti-tank if necessary). Later, use a glider to paradrop a commando one-square from the city to take out the anti-tank gun, the glider can still come back and hide inside the city. You can hold the city for a while (the only threat will be from air raid and a panzergradier).

Start from turn 2, move your transports towards SouthEast but make sure they will not be attacked by mines. Meanwhile use chain-transportation to move heavy artillaries and combat engineers to the frontmost transports. On turn 3 your airplane should be able to take out all mines so you can move your transports ahead right beyond the battery range but can reach the shore. By turn 4 you should have two engineers land and take out both the 210mm battery and the haus unit inside a city (the city is withing paradroping distance from the glider city). Land heavy artillaries and occupy the city, then paradrop the gliders to there. On turn 5, paradrop the heavy artillaries to the first city and you are ready to strike. On turn 6 La Hevre is yours -- just paradrop heavy artillaries (A) and commandos (C) to attack in the following sequence: ACACCAAA. The first two artillaries should be vets.

[Cal]

If only Ike, Montgomery, Patton, and all the others had the creativity to think of that.

You're good... you're a pro, Xin.

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

[Captain Nemo]

Very good feedback...

I never intended the gliders to be reused beyond the first turn and thought I had made it impossible by limiting their range. The next version will definitely make it impossible to salvage the gliders.

Historically Caen was taken about July 9 and Le Havre became an isolated pocket that held far into September (A month after Paris was taken) therefore it should be impregnable until the very last part of the scenario and then should be difficult to take.

Taking Le Havre and Caen will not change the overall course of the scenario significantly and should make it MORE DIFFICULT to win!! Diverting resources away from the historical objectives makes you less likely to take them hence you might not achieve the required technologies for parts 2-11. Taking Caen too early eliminates the "Caen Captured" technology which is source of half the British reinforcements in parts 4-7... Sending so many good units to Le Havre will trap them there when the gliders dissappear in turn 2 and they will be unavailable to use against the required objectives.

Of course this is not intended but it will not make the following parts so easy that there is no challenge. This great feedback should allow me to close some of the loopholes and make the next version better.

Who thinks the scenario is too easy?
Who thinks the scenario is too difficult?

Another interesting development I would like to hear about is the long term success... Achieving the D-Day objectives at too high a cost (Especially in airplanes) may make the following parts more challenging if not impossible...

MagyarCrusader: Your scorecard looks like you achieved the desired results but at a tremendous cost... Especially you fleet got devastated!

Version 1.1 will at least include the following:

Tougher defense of Caen (Though I was never able to capture it before the historical date) (Being good at designing scenarios doesn't mean you are any good at playing them )
The "window" between having just the early defenders during the invasion and the arrival of the tough SS divisions will be closed.

Better readme file with a map, list of objectives with dates and stats for all "normal units".

Disabling of the "Xin factor" (I will make SURE the gliders are totally useless!!)

Stefu:
Isn't there a SF44.sav file (Starting position)? That one is the starting position. SF.sav should be the save file after you start the game so to restart just use SF44

[Shadowstrike]

Those sea mines are evil......

I must have lost a dozen transports by smashing into them...

Is there any trick to holding the cities you take? I've captured quite a few different cities only to have them reclaimed a turn or two later. Every time I try, the British front gets decimated and the American front soon follows suit.

[klesh]

Well, I hate to say this...But i am going to say I think this is too hard.

I haven't been able to break out like some of the kids here have done. I've restarted a few times, but I never have the reinforcements to press on. I'm usually left with scores of US Infantry that can't advance for the life of 'em. Perhaps I'm not attacking at the right points? I'm on the MGE version, so I never know where the counterattacks are coming from.
Basically, I feel lost and alone in this French wilderness. I have taken heavy losses in the Airforce and they don't seem to be holding back the German reinforcements.
There is all kinds of civil unrest in England, it occure before it is possible to resupport any units.
I have seen no where near as much success as some of the kids here are talking about. I'm not playing around with loopholes either.

But alas, I though RedFront was too hard untill I got the hang of it. I guess it's the looming thought that If I don't take what I need to now, the events and rules wont give me the reinforcements I need. It's like I'm trying to hang on to a string that I can't see, you know. I'm sure once I find a way to really do well on D-Day, that all will be well.

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!
Großdeutschland!

[DarthVeda]

Actually there's a really easy way around the mines. Use the goto function with the mouse drag and send them toward land. Sure it takes a bit longer but you'll never lose a guy since the goto automatically avoids enemy units.

[Sten Sture]

Darth - since all of the units can see the mines, you really just have to watch where you are going - the go-to will leave you adjacent to mines and inside shore gun range.

So far I think the scenario is quite tough, but pretty balanced. Playing it in MGE is driving me a little nuts with the invisible counterattacks but so be it.

Once I figured out the easy way to see the mines it made landing without blowing everybody up in the water much easier. In fact, I would suggest that you make the little buggers visible (just barely) to speed up the process of moving - if they are visible then maybe a few more of them.

You could eliminate the glider problem by making sure the commandos alone can't take Langrune - perhaps with just adding a blockhaus. Any glider that doesn't get to a city in that first turn is pretty much gone.

I like the layout of the German fixed positions that tie down the zoc's on Utah. Having a primary road through the hedges that could be blocked by the Airborne might be handy.

One thing that I think you should make a house rule is allowing limited pillaging - maybe by placing a couple of size one Kreigsmarine cities around the map at junctures where commandos took out bridges in the early hours of D-Day to block reinforcements (Pegasus Bridge comes to mind.) Actually that might not work either, but you get the general idea. Maybe let the player pillage a limited number (three or four?) road sections with the Airborne & glider Commandos.

Rereading Ambroses' D-Day between gaming sessions really makes the history come alive. Good work!
[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited October 09, 2000).]

[Cal]

I think the scenario is just right... I couldn't blindly march ahead and complete the objectives, but I was able to work out some sort of strategy.
Also... I've never had a problem with cities being recaptured, the only time that happened was when I took Langrune and left two commandoes in it... both badly damaged. In fact, the germans usually don't even counterattack, except to throw Luftwaffe units at the cities.

This is referring to part 1... of course, part 2 became harder once the panzers showed up and stopped my advance on Caen.

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

[Shadowstrike]

Grr.. I'm struggling through Part I and someone pops up and tells me Part II is harder....

Nemo, you really have to make an "easy" version for those of us who are less skilled civ-wise...

[Cal]

Why not go check the Art of War forum for strategies?

Just try not to lose any ships to those silly coast mines. When seizing Omaha beach, I prefer to go after grandcamps or port-en-bessin and sneak through to capture omaha that way, it's a lot easier than to risk having your forces destroyed in the minefields.

Btw, Captain Nemo, since the Allies expected to have seized Caen on D-day, shouldn't it be an objective before it was actually taken historically?

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal