Second Front Feedback

[Captain Nemo]

Jim Winchell:
The command posts and bunkers should alternatively be vulnerable in each part (Bunkers in part 1 and 3,
Command Posts in Parts 2 and 4) I don't believe there are any triggers to remove them. One particular city is on a river and is difficult to take.
I will look into the Fontenay issue. Part 5? How far have you gotten?

[Jim Winchell]

Captain Nemo:

I am on turn 4 and I still have not been able to take out the cities in the woods and hedgerows just south of the Omaha beach cities. I have taken cities further south and isolated them, but I cannot wipe out the command bunkers in these cities. Is there a trigger city that eliminates these bunkers?

[Jim Winchell]

Fontenay is easily captured before turn 5--I think I got it on Turn 3. You might want to put a command bunker in it with its home city being one of the cities near Cherbourg.

[Jim Winchell]

Captain Nemo: I thought some bunkers were supported by certain cities. It seemed like the bunkers in and around Isigny disappeared with I captured Carentan.

My hints to new players: Omaha Beach can be successfully invaded at Port-en-Bessin. Use engineers to destroy the pillbox on the railroad by the ocean and in the city. Have your AF screen the city to prevent the Germans from reinforcing the city. Unload everything onto the railroad hex--units with a mp of 2+ can continue to move that turn. Then advance along the beach to take the objective cities from the land side. The city west of Colleville can be emptied out by your AF (no bunker) and occupied by rangers on turn 2. Non-alpine units can be landed just north of that city and move into it the next turn (and can continue to move if mp 2+).

Captain Nemo--Is there any way to toughen the Port-en-Bessin area to prevent it from becoming a ahistorical landing zone (I landed 90% of the Omaha invasion force there and those units were quickly all over the board)? A command post in the city supported by Colleville? That should keep Port-en-Bessin from becoming a "mulberry" for the allies until later on D-Day.

[Evil Capitalist]

I noticed something similar. Especially as the bunker can be taken out by a cruiser.

Hint to new players: Pont d'Hoc can be destroyed by 1 engineer and a ranger on turn 2, leaving it free to reboard and move down to Grandchamps (and remove the blockhouse therein)

[SunTzu]

Hey captain nemo. Days before the D-Day invasion and days after the invasion began, French Resistance groups helped alot by sabotaging and blowing up bridges and so-fourth. I think that to make your scenario more realistic than it already is. Is to make a trigger in the scenario that add's Partisans in france every few turns. Maybe create a new civ called French Resistance. The French Resistance was lead by Charles De Gaulle from London.
Just an idea i had when playing last night.
Anyways
PEACE!

[Shadowstrike]

Phew... I'm on Part II now and doing well...

I don't really get the text messages. What are the objectives of Part II? Just Caretan (sp?)?

The airstrikes are so useful, you can take out an incoming panzer offensive, attack fortified positions (not the batteries or blockhouses) and have a lot of use.

Nemo, for some wierd reason, Mulberry is not being completed, even though I ordered it to be started 5 turns ago, I still haven't gotten a single shield. Also, when I press "F2" it says that I'm making 255 German POWs. Its a wierd bug...

Very great scenario to play. I'm doing this 2 turns a day so I look forward to the weekend...

The great thing about this scenario is the "feel" that you are on a campaign, it really keeps you playing.

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Webmaster of Shadowstrike's Civilization II Site
Emperor of The Gamer's Abode Forums

[Captain Nemo]

Currently I'm reworking Second Front with all the great feedback I have been getting here.

So far there is a massive new Readme.doc with a historical timeline, a big new "hints" section, a map for the "historically challenged" (so you can find the beaches and the D-Day objectives) and a roster of the enemy units with graphics and statistics to make up for the lack of info in the Civilopedia.

There are a few events changes to prevent the capture of Caen on D-Day and to improve some of the playability aspects.

Port-in-Bessin is now protected by mines homed in the city so the non-historical landing is no longer possible. I have expended the events in part 2 to include Port-en-Bessin since historically it wasn't taken until June 9. (It was where the British and US forces met)

Measures have been taken to prevent the misuse of the Gliders (These measures are known as Anti-Xin defenses)

But primarily I have worked on a greatly improved use of the Kriegsmarine... Here are the guts of it:
The Kriegsmarine has only a capital city located in a very protected spot (St Heliers on the Channel Islands) all other cities are nameless and look like the 210mm bunkers! They produce their own shells and are protected by infantry... Some cities are located North of Le Havre and look like V-1 launching ramps! Except one of the bunker-cities is named Pointe du Hoc and is one of the Allied objectives on D-Day.
This seems to greatly improve the defense capability of the Bunkers and does allow them to "reload" after
they run out of shells.
It also frees 2 unit slots (210mm and 240mm Batteries) for use in the game. All the bunker-cities are size one with city walls so they will be destroyed when captured but survive multiple assaults without dissappearing. Size 1 limits how quick they can build
new shells and that is good too IMHO.

One of the two new units is spoken for but let me know what the other one should be... I heard one vote for "French Partisans"?

Shadowstrike: Are you building the "Mulberry Wonder" in Arromanches? Is your city producing any shields? is there disorder in the city?

Jim Winchell: Yes there are a few of the bunkers that are designed to dissappear (Per your great idea when you testplayed the game) but not the ones south of Omaha. I have myself gotten out of sink with the switching strength of those units... It is important to take out all blockhaus-es adjacent to the beaches in part 1 or they will stop you until part 3 and vice versa the Command Posts need to be eliminated in part 2 or you have to wait until part 4.

[Kull]

An excellent scenario Nemo, you've come up with yet another sleep banisher! In no particular order, here's a few comments, tips, and suggestions:

1) Need to get a new sound for those drowning tanks. The sounds of a collapsing trireme don't quite fit.

2) I too have been using Port en Bessin as the Omaha Beach "port", and found it to be very useful. I'll miss it in Version2! One engineer will kill the blockhaus on the shore, send a 15" battleship shell into the city to weaken that blockhaus, finish it off with another engineer, send in another shell to kill/weaken the wilderstandsnest, and finish off the remaining units with BARs. Definitely clog the back roads with planes to prevent reinforcements.

3) When taking out mines with your destroyers, if you can position the ship so it's adjacent to 2 mines or a mine and one of your planes, it won't move into the space after you kill the mine. That can save several movement points, and is usually the difference between being able to escape or getting clobbered by artillery shells next turn.

4) A single engineer with 2/3 movement can take out any 15" or 210 battery and all blockhaus's. Exception is those inside cities. Crocodiles are less reliable. They usually need a full rack of movement points.

5) Use P-47s and Typhoons almost exclusively against Widerstandsnests in the opening turns. You should be able to kill most of those near the beach cities, and if you attack from the land side you'll keep the beaches clear AND clog the roads to prevent reinforcements.

6) With very few exceptions, your Airborne and glider troops should be fortified immediately on hedgerow squares. This makes them almost impervious to attack and will really slow down the German reinforcements at Utah and Ouistreham (I dropped three of the gliders behind this British objective and fortified 6 commandos in the hedgerows behind those two cities. Lost the Gliders but reinforcements were non-existent.)

7) Cruisers! Excellent for taking out those pesky Command Centers near Ouistreham and Port-en Bessin, and Carentan. They will also kill any gun battery based on the seashore, if necessary.

8) Displaying units in the Civilopedia: Rather than give most of them them a "no" prerequisite, take one of your unused techs and make it "no,no" (invisible and unresearchable) then take another Tech (call it "Unit Display" or some such) and make the "no,no" tech it's only prerequisite. This new tech cannot be researched or stolen, but all units based on it will now be visible online. You have a few "Do Not Use" Techs which could be used for this. If in fact the Germans insist on Disbanding Units when you do this, it could at least be done for the Human player's units. I didn't have the disbanding problem in one of my scenarios, but that may be because the AI wasn't allowed to build ANY units.

9) New units for Version 2: Bangalore torpedos which generate events that turn certain sections of barbed wire into clean beach. There could be only one for each enemy civ (and I only know of 3: Luftwaffe, Germans, and Kriegsmarine). They'd be zero-move units placed on barbedwire terrain, and killing them would change the tile underneath from barbed wire to beach. You'd only need them for the first section, and then could use the slot for something else. With all the other changes you're making to eliminate our little "cheats", it would be nice to get at least one bonus in return! Plus, if you placed these at the site of historical breakout points, you'd be enhancing the
accuracy of the scenario. To keep planes from killing them, give them "Blockhaus" type stats so the player would have to attack them with his engineers.

10) Speaking of non-historical uses for planes. Why not give the mines a stronger defense and even "Aegis" capability?

11) I don't know if this is a cheat, but I was able to get most of my armor and artillery ashore on turn 3, and conquered most of the beach cities by turn 4. You can do this by "chaining your transports". Without getting into excruciating detail (too late!), here's how it works:

- Transport "A" with 2 infantry has five move points, and waits for transport "B" carrying 2 engineers to arrive in the same square.
- When they're in the same square, "wake-up" all four units, and then put the engineers to sleep. (Edit: If Transport "B" is an LST, you'll have to "wake-up" the units on "A" BEFORE it reaches the square, because the 8 sleeping units on "B" will occupy the entire window. Also, "A" will only grab the first two units in "B", so if you need units 5&6, you'll need 3 waiting LCVPs in the square)
- Move Transport "A" and the engineers are now aboard instead of the infantry.
- THE KEY: The land units which will leave MUST be the last ones to arrive in the square! Whichever ship departs first, they'll be aboard.

I found that by using this method, on turn 3 most of my infantry were aboard the LSTs while a massive armor and artillery force was slashing into the german defenses. They didn't have a prayer! At that point I stopped the game and replayed it, forcing myself to drop all the infantry ashore before going back for the tanks. I couldn't resist SOME finagling and used the above method to move all the engineers into my initial assault force, which was still very helpful.
[This message has been edited by Kull (edited October 20, 2000).]

[Kull]

Nemo: One other way to keep the troops on the beaches would be to make them an alternating set of Kriegsmarine and German troops (and even Luftwaffe if you really want to jazz things up). The interlocking ZOC would keep them from wandering off, and their low target value would prevent the player from going after them with his Air Force (which I will definitely do if the only "holding" units are Widerstandnests, since those are an early priority target for me anyway)

[Sten Sture]

A couple of ideas for the extra unit slot -

Ost Company: Very weak "None" defenders (3a2d?) that could man the batteries and some fortified ground in numbers. They could be easily knocked out individually, but would tie down units to take them out one at a time.

Mine sweepers: Submarine unit that has a high attack value to clear floating mines. (make mines destroyed on attack and give them bigger defense #s and Aegis to prevent/reduce clearing all of the mines with planes)

[SunTzu]

Nemo here's the real info on the Invasion Forces.
5,000 Transport, Warships ect....carried 150,000 troops to France for the invasion. Not 3million that you had as the events file Just alittle history check for your remaking of Second Front. Also, I suggested The French Partisans that keep on poping up in france. Also,
Bombers and other planes dropped 23,000 Airborne Troops into France while bombing bridges ect...So i think you should add some B-17 Bombers or something that are already in the air in France near the Airborne troops already in France.
Just some tips to make it more realistic
Still a great scn!

[Shadowstrike]

Nemo: That's the wierd thing. Its not in disorder, and its producing 16 shields (it is the bullets, right?)

Just curious, do you get more engineers via events? I'm down to 4 now, and I don't know how long they'll last...

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Webmaster of Shadowstrike's Civilization II Site
Emperor of The Gamer's Abode Forums

[Case]

Some Ideas for the new unit:
-Canadian Troops- These guys made up about 1/3 of the "British" forces.
-spotter Aircraft for the army
-Airforce owned forward air controllers to keep pace with the ground troops and spot targets for the planes. Historically these guys travelled in Shermans with upgraded radios.
-Landmines (eg invisible units with high defence values)
-French Civilians (Allies get rewarded for liberating them and the need to look after them slows down the allied advance)

Also, Are you sure that Cherbourg Air Base was to the west of Cherbourg? 'Overlord' by Max Hastings places it to the east of Cherbourg (about halfway between the city and St Pierre-Eglise)

As for the resistance: I don't think that they were important players in Normandy (can you imagine some untrained and lightly armed guerillas surviving in the midst of a major German army?).

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If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error
-John Kenneth Galbraith

[Shadowstrike]

I'm on Part II now and I seem to have reached an impasse. I'm out of Engineers (lost the last 2 to a Blockhaus.....), but I control an unbroken beach from the Pont du Hoc to Lion-sur-Mer, and St Mere Eglise and La Madiline. Furthermore, I control nearly 30 tanks at the British beaches and 15 on the American ones. Utah beach is good for another couple turns. Is it possible for me to go on? Or will I eventually end in futility?

[Captain Nemo]

First: More engineers are coming in part III as long as you got Pointe du Hoc on D-Day. Bombers in part 2 should help you fend off the worst German onslaught.

Shadowstrike: If you hold the entire coast from Lion s/Mer to La Madeleine you're in pretty good shape IMHO. There are techniques for hurting the superior Germans with your tanks just need to get the terrain to work to your advantage.

Note that there is a MAJOR difference between Grass and Field terrain. The Grass is used to represent lanes in the hedgerows where anyone caught by the enemy would be a sitting duck... A P47D can take on a veteran Tiger on grass with decent odds. So can a veteran Sherman with about 40% odds.

Regarding the 150,000 invasion versus 3,000,000: Actually 155,000 was the number of troops landed on D-Day alone. The entire personel involved in the invasion including reinforcements was 3,000,000 (That's where my number comes from). For example, by D-Day + 24, the Allies had landed 920,000 troops in Normandy. By the end of the scenario (August 22nd) the Allies had almost 3,000,000 troops in Northern France (Without counting the Southern Force landed in operation Anvil).

New units, my favorites so far:
Canadians
German bunker defenders
Artillery Spotter Piper (US used a lot of those)
Minesweeper (Just need a "low cost" destroyer that is not a target for the Huns)
Another German aircraft?

Location of airfield near Cherbourg:
There were actually 3 German airfields in the area. One straight East of town, one to the West and Carquebut to the South East... Also Plumetot East of Caen, with Carpiquet to the West. My airbase locations were chosen for playability rather than history but I think I can change it now without causing what I feared (Massive non-historical German raids on D-Day)

The Shadowstrike "Mulberry" mystery... Has anyone else had problems building the Mulberry after taking Arromanches?

Kull: That has been my technique. The Widerstandnest unit is the best because it looks normal in the terrain and doesn't move so it traps the units on the beach. The WN will be slightly stronger because I think Civ2 penalizes them for being "submarines" (I love how they pop-up as hidden positions would in a real invasion)... I am not hoping to keep the Germans on the beach more than 2 turns so I think the WN serves the purpose. The bangalore idea is superb! I am seriously thinking about it, only hesitating because the events in part 1 are already maxed out.

Talking of a specialized item: Who has a good sound for a sinking DD tank?... And for a ship caught in a storm?

The Allied units appear in the unit roster (Defense Minister) with their stats. I am pretty convinced the AI disbands units that he can't build unless set at nil,no.

[Shadowstrike]

Phew... The intro to Part II said that I needed to capture more cities... I doubt that I can even cut off access to Cherbourg in Part 3/4. Is there any way to take a city with a command post/bunker without engineers or croc tanks? Do I get more Croc tanks?

I'm afraid that Utah beach might fall. The problem is that I don't control the beach from La Madeline to Lion-sur-Mer. There's the gap between the Point du Hoc and La Madeline, which prevents me from reinforcing that area for a while. St Mere Eglise is defended only by 4 airborne infantry units, a transformed DD tank, and IIRC a BAR infantry (I thin that might have been killed off though.. and its being bombarded turn after turn by Panzers and infantry. Most of them dash themselves agaisnt the defense, but a few have gotten through lately and weaken the defenses quite a bit. I can't even gain any territory there. Stupid me, making a mistake landing the tanks....

Wierdly enough, Mulberry seems to be working now... Wierd bug. Nemo, did you look into the "255 POWs in production on F2 report" problem?

If I have no way to destroy bunkers/batteries/command posts, I might as well fortify everything inside the cities...

The air force isn't too hard to keep from destroying itself. Save your bombers, because you can build only fighters. I hate it when I run into an enemy plane with a bomber, no way to attack it....

[Case]

quote: Originally posted by Shadowstrike on 10-20-2000 10:33 PM Is there any way to take a city with a command post/bunker without engineers or croc tanks? Do I get more Croc tanks?

Vetern heavy artillery and mobile artilery can do everything that an engineer can. You can also use B-24's to take out command posts and bunkers with a good chance of success (though this chance is a lot lower when the bunker is on urban terain)

You don't get any more Croc tanks, and after D-Day they turn into Firefly tanks. Its not a great loss, just send over some engineers from the American beaches and use the heavy artileries from Brighton



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If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error
-John Kenneth Galbraith

[Captain Nemo]

The problem with 255 POWs is pretty typical. A bug in the way Civ2 counts the units in production, it loses count under certain conditions, same BTW when units are wiped out by special circumstances like a change terrain event. The game thinks they are still in play and counts them. Towards the end of my last game the AI thought it still had something 60 tanks and 200 infantry with only 8-10 cities left... I couldn't believe it so I looked through all the cities and sure enough there was only about 30 units left.

I am going to start a new thread on SF because this one is getting too slow to load... See you there

[Cal]

Aww... we could've pushed this to 150 posts.