What Next?

[Kull]

Originally I was much in favor of a "Battle of the Bulge" scenario, but there aren't many who agree. And in truth it would be little more than "Red Front faces West".

But Market-Garden would be very cool, plus you could use all the Second Front units as is. The map would be neat, since the whole operation would fit within the bounds of a loooong strip map. Haven't seen one of those before!

Red Front 1.941 (New map): 5
Stalingrad 1942 (Urban warfare): 7
Finnish-Soviet War (Finnish side): 1
Ardennes 1944 (American side): 0
Ardennes 1944 (German side): 1
France 1940 (French side): 1
France 1940 (German side): 0
Afrikakorps (Both sides): 6
Battle of Britain (British side): 4
Market-Garden (Allied Side): 1 (NEW!)

[SixArmedMan]

Invasion of France from the Allied side would be absolutely fascinating to play. It'd be interesting to see whether the Allied forces commanded properly could have properly repelled the German invasion. I'm for that all the way.


Red Front 1.941 (New map): 5
Stalingrad 1942 (Urban warfare): 7
Finnish-Soviet War (Finnish side): 1
Ardennes 1944 (American side): 0
Ardennes 1944 (German side): 1
France 1940 (French side): 2
France 1940 (German side): 0
Afrikakorps (Both sides): 6
Battle of Britain (British side): 4
Market-Garden (Allied Side): 1

[Miner]

My vote goes for Stalingrad

Red Front 1.941 (New map): 5
Stalingrad 1942 (Urban warfare): 8
Finnish-Soviet War (Finnish side): 1
Ardennes 1944 (American side): 0
Ardennes 1944 (German side): 1
France 1940 (French side): 2
France 1940 (German side): 0
Afrikakorps (Both sides): 6
Battle of Britain (British side): 4
Market-Garden (Allied Side): 1

[The ANZAC]

Actually, now that I see Market Garden, I'm going to switch from Stalingrad to that.

Red Front 1.941 (New map): 5
Stalingrad 1942 (Urban warfare): 7
Finnish-Soviet War (Finnish side): 1
Ardennes 1944 (American side): 0
Ardennes 1944 (German side): 1
France 1940 (French side): 2
France 1940 (German side): 0
Afrikakorps (Both sides): 6
Battle of Britain (British side): 4
Market-Garden (Allied Side): 2

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"We sought to throw a raging lion ashore; what we got was a stranded whale!" -Winston Curchill on the Battle of Anzio

"Quis custodes ipsos custodiet?" -Juvenal

"I can walk!!" -Dr. Strangelove

[klesh]

ANZAC, you traitor!

[Hendrik the Great]

I want to see house to house fighting! Perhaps Captain Nemo could make a special unit representing my grandpa...

So the score is now:

Red Front 1.941 (New map): 5
Stalingrad 1942 (Urban warfare): 8
Finnish-Soviet War (Finnish side): 1
Ardennes 1944 (American side): 0
Ardennes 1944 (German side): 1
France 1940 (French side): 2
France 1940 (German side): 0
Afrikakorps (Both sides): 6
Battle of Britain (British side): 4
Market-Garden (Allied Side): 2



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Mathias' Civ II Page
http://members.nbci.com/thalys

[Prometeus]

Your grandpa fought in that battle, Hendrik? The battle of the tremendous "Red October" factory's inferno? I hope he survived to that disaster the same way as my grandpa survived to Cheren...

[Stefan Härtel]

My Grandpa lost his legs at Stalingrad. Fortunate for him that he still got one of those airplanes.
And I must agree with Cpt. Nemo, there is no sense in making scenarios on topics which you have no passion for. That's why I don't make any modern, or ultra-modern scenarios or deeply-medieval or 16th/17th century central european scenarios (or christianity-based). When you make a scenario on a topic that really interests you, it is likely that it will become good.

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Mighty Carthage fought three wars:
It was still mighty after the first one, still inhabitable
after the second one;
It could not be found after the third one.
-Bert Brecht

Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

[Hendrik the Great]

Yes, he served on a motorbike transmitting orders, etc... Luckely, I must say, he was shot in the back by a snipper and had to be flown out for treatment. As he later found out he had been on one of the very last planes to leave. Later he was in France (no, not Normandy) and Balkan(?) where he had to exit his quarters throu the back door because a the Russians we literally knocking on the front door.

But I think we should stay with the original idea of this thread and help Nemo decide on a new scenario.
If you want to continue with this send me an email.

------------------
Mathias' Civ II Page
http://members.nbci.com/thalys

[Allard HS]

It's interesting to hear these stories from the other side. Still, grandchildren always only tell the stories about lucky grandparents who did not die. Otherwise they wouldn't have been there, obviously.

And Stefan, you're absolutely right. That's the advantage of not being paid to make scenarios, that you can do it about whatever you wish.

[Cal]

Hmm... my grandfather was almost in the war, he received his greeting from the President the day the war ended.

By the way, I've added my vote.

Red Front 1.941 (New map): 5
Stalingrad 1942 (Urban warfare): 8
Finnish-Soviet War (Finnish side): 1
Ardennes 1944 (American side): 0
Ardennes 1944 (German side): 1
France 1940 (French side): 2
France 1940 (German side): 0
Afrikakorps (Both sides): 7
Battle of Britain (British side): 4
Market-Garden (Allied Side): 2

------------------
The strategically impaired,
-Cal

Let's see... let's see.... I'll go for............ Battle of Britain. No, wait, France 1940! Both sides. That should even out to a .5 to both teams. What I'm voting for is France 1940 French AND German.

Red Front 1.941 (New map): 5
Stalingrad 1942 (Urban warfare): 8
Finnish-Soviet War (Finnish side): 1
Ardennes 1944 (American side): 0
Ardennes 1944 (German side): 1
France 1940 (French side): 2.5
France 1940 (German side): 0.5
Afrikakorps (Both sides): 7
Battle of Britain (British side): 4
Market-Garden (Allied Side): 2

[techumseh]

Kursk.

[Prometeus]

Telling of lucky fortunes! My grandpa fought at Mount Colquebar defensive trenches; the division soon shooted all the ammo, so they had to reject the last Anglo-indian division assault with bajonets... My grandma telled me ( she's dead now ) my grandpa striked with his rifle's baionet on an Indian' soldier head, the baionet and the rifle went destroyed, so he had to take on a stone and a big stick in order to continue the charge... He was severely injured, so he took the last medical airplane to Giarabub, Libia. The very last one... after that one, no more airplanes from Etiopia. He was proud of the scars he got in this battle; sadly, the african sun caused him a deadly cancer ( carcinoma kind ), so he died out two years before my birth.

[Hendrik the Great]

That's sad to hear. I was lucky enough to get to know my grandfather.

Another suggestion for Captain Nemo:
How about a scenario focusing on the Battle of the Atlantic? U-Boots and the rest against Allied Convoys?

It's what has been suggested and more. A naval scenario and WWII in your normal realms.

------------------
Mathias' Civ II Page
http://members.nbci.com/thalys

[Sortub]

I vote for the ultimate version of Red Front.

Though a bad back kept him out of the fighting, my grandfather, a forestry expert, helped design the American Gliders used at Normandy.

My other grandfather had to stay home and watch over the farm while his brothers served. He and my great uncle used to tell a story about two German POW's who ended up in southwestern Wisconsin. They managed to escape they area where they were held and promptly fled down the Mississippi river. However, their misadventure promptly ended when they reached a nearby town on the shores of the river; the escapees ended up in LaCrosse, Wisconsin, and not New Orleans, where they thought they were.

Captain Nemo-

If you do the Stalingrad scenario, I HIGHLY recomend ToT. Despite the fact that you will lose feedback from people who are too stuborn to buy the game, it would so kick ass. With the multiple maps feature you could have people fighting in the same people or different stories, and troops running around in underground trenches and sewers. It would really be crazy (in the good way) if small pockets of your troops were cut off and trapped in an upper level of a building, factory or what have you. Combat Engineer type units could dig holes (build transport sites) underneath the city for troops to pop up on the other side. It would be utter chaos. An urban scenario like this has yet to be exploited, and I think you should lead the way!


If you don't plan on making any ToT scenarios period then I suggest Axis Afrika Korps.

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"There is no more illustrious history than the history of the Magyar Nation... The whole civilized world is indebted to Magyarland for its historic deeds."
-Theodore Roosevelt, to the Hungarian Parliament,
April 2, 1910

[Cal]

Ok, the current scores are...

Red Front 1.941 (New map): 6
Stalingrad 1942 (Urban warfare): 8 (Unless ToT version of Stalingrad, then 9)
Finnish-Soviet War (Finnish side): 1
Ardennes 1944 (American side): 0
Ardennes 1944 (German side): 1
France 1940 (French side): 2.5
France 1940 (German side): 0.5
Afrikakorps (Both sides): 8 (unless ToT version of Stalingrad, then 7)
Battle of Britain (British side): 4
Market-Garden (Allied Side): 2
Kursk (No Side Specified): 1
The Unofficial Naval War in the Atlantic (No Side Specified): 0

I hope that wasn't too incoherent...

[CapTVK]

Though call, I would really like to see a ToT version of stalinggrad. I would probably get ToT just to see that scenario. If Nemo keeps working with the original my vote would go to a scenario based on the afrikacorps. It doesn't have to both sides, German side would be preferred over the British.

Red Front 1.941 (New map): 6
Stalingrad 1942 (Urban warfare): 8 (Unless ToT version of Stalingrad, then 10)
Finnish-Soviet War (Finnish side): 1
Ardennes 1944 (American side): 0
Ardennes 1944 (German side): 1
France 1940 (French side): 2.5
France 1940 (German side): 0.5
Afrikakorps (Both sides): 9 (unless ToT version of Stalingrad, then 8)
Battle of Britain (British side): 4
Market-Garden (Allied Side): 2
Kursk (No Side Specified): 1
The Unofficial Naval War in the Atlantic (No Side Specified): 0

In the meantime I'll be a happy Civ2player with Captain Nemo's new scenario.
[This message has been edited by CapTVK (edited October 17, 2000).]

[DarthVeda]

Everybody says "Lez do Stalingrad", but the actual battle wasn't so exciting. Germans come in, get trapped, surrender. Exactly how do you convert this to civ2? Close Combat III and Panzer General are much better city combat platforms than civ2. Civ2 is more for theater and strategic combat. I've tried creating scenarios that revolve around city to city combat, and they sucked so much I couldn't bare to release them. The word BORING comes to mind when I think of combining city combat and civ2.

Nemo, do the ardennes if anything, that would be TEN THOUSAND times more interesting than Stalingrad.

[Panda]

Well when I saw the glider idea in action, I immediately thought of Arnhem. Or Crete, now I think about it.

However, as you say you already have the right map for a Red Front update, I'd suggest getting that out of the way first.

I don't know about the battle of britain. Taken out of context, the two months of frantic action hardly translate well into a Civ2 scenario with the kind of campaign feature you like so well. Hardly any single battles do. The only new worthwhile suggestions are Afrikakorps or France 1940 as they're about control of territory and production rather than destroying the enemy en masse. And both of these have been done before by JP, and done rather well I might add. Maybe Stalingrad, Ardennes and Arnhem for control of tactical objectives. Just MHO.

Red Front 1.941 (New map): 7
Stalingrad 1942 (Urban warfare): 8 (Unless ToT version of Stalingrad, then 10)
Finnish-Soviet War (Finnish side): 1
Ardennes 1944 (American side): 0
Ardennes 1944 (German side): 1
France 1940 (French side): 2.5
France 1940 (German side): 0.5
Afrikakorps (Both sides): 9 (unless ToT version of Stalingrad, then 8)
Battle of Britain (British side): 4
Market-Garden (Allied Side): 2
Kursk (No Side Specified): 1
The Unofficial Naval War in the Atlantic (No Side Specified): 0

[jeibel]

Hi Prom, nice maps!
Where do they came from? Scanned? Link to the source, perhaps?

Keep up the good work, guys!

[Captain Nemo]

Eliminating the adjustable count since I would not go with ToT (Not that is not a good idea, but it would require a lot of additional work... As far as a new platform, I would probably prefer to wait for Civ III)here is the updated count:

Red Front 1.941 (New map): 7
Stalingrad 1942 (Urban warfare): 8
Finnish-Soviet War (Finnish side): 1
Ardennes 1944 (American side): 0
Ardennes 1944 (German side): 1
France 1940 (French side): 2.5
France 1940 (German side): 0.5
Afrikakorps (Both sides): 9
Battle of Britain (British side): 4
Market-Garden (Allied Side): 2
Kursk (No Side Specified): 1
Battle of the Atlantic : 0

[This message has been edited by Captain Nemo (edited October 17, 2000).]

[Prometeus]

quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda on 10-17-2000 11:46 AM Everybody says "Lez do Stalingrad", but the actual battle wasn't so exciting. Germans come in, get trapped, surrender. Exactly how do you convert this to civ2?

Interesting problem, Veda... Nemo, this is my idea ( it was inspired by Roman Riots scenario ):
1) Set in a map the whole Stalingrad front ( the Volga river and town in the middle, depicted with a "urban type" terrain, four or five objectives - the factories - in the middle of this area from north to south ), with several other cities as objectives ( Gurmak air camp, for example );
2) begin the scen with the German attack;

3) in the midst of the scen, use the event.txt to start the "Operation Uranus" ( you know, the Russian counterattack ), against the Rumenian army's units ( maybe you can perform these as weak units, it's your choice);

4) Trap the German into Stalingrad and destroy them - Von Paulus unit ? Schreck unit ? -( playing as Russian ), take the Stalingrad production factories and the railroad station - the objectives - before "Operation Uranus" ( playing as German ).

Simple as olive oil...

PS Forgot to tell you about Operation Wintersturm... and you dare to say this battle to be not so intersting ????
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited October 17, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited October 18, 2000).]

[Prometeus]

To Jeibel
Hy, Jeibel!!! Images were scanned... from the book "Le grandi battaglie nella storia" ( "Greatest battles in history" ). Published on my web site, then added using the [img] and [/img] UBB codes on Apolyton.

[klesh]

I was thinking that a re-working of RedFront would be cool, but this time for play as the Germans. Thoughts?

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!
Großdeutschland!

[master on high]

ARGH....

Battle of Britain or Battle of the Bulge.

[Cal]

I want to change my vote... here's the new voting tabulation.

Red Front 1.941 (New map): 8
Stalingrad 1942 (Urban warfare): 8
Finnish-Soviet War (Finnish side): 1
Ardennes 1944 (American side): .25
Ardennes 1944 (German side): 1.25
France 1940 (French side): 2.5
France 1940 (German side): 0.5
Afrikakorps (Both sides): 8
Battle of Britain (British side): 4.5
Market-Garden (Allied Side): 2
Kursk (No Side Specified): 1
Battle of the Atlantic : 0

Now there's a three way tie!

------------------
The strategically impaired,
-Cal

[DarthVeda]

Reworking RedFront for German play requires a massively different events file. (Plus you have to set it up so that the Soviets actually buildup in the rear). I tried it out with the standard events file... the Germans are in Moscow in June.

The inherent problem with this scenario is that the player starts the game winning and then loses later on.

[CDC80UF]

Capt. Nemo you are still the man! I haven't been around the Civ Community since the original release of Red Front, and you are still bangin'em out! (Graduate Scholl is a mother!)
The Battle of Britain would be an outstanding idea!
The Ideas you have down sound great. You could make this senerio harder than Red Front.
"Human control of the RAF and Air defense network (Radar stations and Ack-ack guns). British population and industry represented by an AI producing no military units, just civilians, factories, trade trucks, cargo ships etc...
Human player owns just a handful of factories producing the airplanes and AA guns + fixed airbases (These are units with air carrying capability) across the UK. The Luftwaffe can destroy the airbases reducing the operating ranges of the RAF fighters as well as bomb the aircraft factories. AA guns can be placed in defensive lines to protect the British cities but can't be inside the cities since they are AI controlled.
Luftwaffe scores extra units/money for destroying factories, killing civilians, sinking ships and destroying airbases. If critical mass is reached (ie massive Luftwaffe superiority) an event triggers the release of 100 transport ships with German infantry from French channel ports..."
The last event would make the Sea Lion roar!
Later,
Christian
[This message has been edited by CDC80UF (edited October 19, 2000).]