10 questions, a poll really

[VetLegion]

1) do you play on the zone?

2) do you usually play with people you know?

3) how long does your average session last?

4) how long does your average game last?

5) if the game is broken, do you ever continue without that person?

6) what is the optimum number of players for you?

7) do you often expirience lag?

8) what time do you set for turn to last (max) and what (min).

9) is RT good for MP civ? (simultaneous turns in SMAC)

10) is TOAW system good? (simultaneous planning, and execute at once)

Thanks for replys.

[suas333]

1) Yes

2) Yes - from the league, not personnally

3) about 4-6 hours

4) League games, 1 session 4-6 hours,
Dip games: 6 months 1 or 2 sessions a week

5) No

6) 4 -- but i will play with any number

7) No -- not usually from my computer

8) Unlimited -- but usually play with the timer at about 5 min, and increase

9) Beats me

10) Huh?

[carnide_]

Yes, 1) do you play on the zone?
yes, 2) do you usually play with people you know?

4-6 hours, 3) how long does your average session last?

12-15 hours, 3days to weeks,4) how long does your average game last?

yes, I will try 5) if the game is broken, do you ever continue without that person?

3, no more than 4, 6) what is the optimum number of players for you?

yes, 7) do you often expirience lag?

I like it unlimited, else the host has an advantage, 8) what time do you set for turn to last (max) and what (min).

maybe... 9) is RT good for MP civ? (simultaneous turns in SMAC)

???, 10) is TOAW system good? (simultaneous planning, and execute at once)

[Smash]

9.No

10.No

there is enough to do.That type of game comes down to keyboard dexterity.Civ is a thinkin game.

[VetLegion]

Thanks for all replys. My expiriences are similar.

Smash, I agree civ is a thinking game. But it is a huge problem to finish a game. I have played 60 and some games (I know I usually name them "lucky game no59" ), and I havent finished one properly. There were some surrenders, some agreed victorys, some great starts and midgames, but not once have I finished a game (1x or 2x). Everything goes well usually, but when next session has to be agreed, things fall apart.

I have played some SMAC in LAN and it was very real-timish, but not all that bad. Anoying at first, but latter I gave up thorough thinking and played just for the game.

I usually set time 3 minutes in my MP games, and possibly extend it later in game, if it is a good one. If a player needs all of his 3 minutes for the begining turns, it is not usually very promising

And the lag is particulary of interest to me. Civ has relatively small amounts of data to transfer around (compared to RT games) and it still lags alot (in my games at least)

What do those computers do when I play MP? exchange hard disc data? MP3s?

[markusf]

I think everytime someone changes information it sends the whole data on the clients machine to the host. Sounds stupid but i wouldn't be suprised if it did. As when you make changes during your turn like buy a marketplace it often doesn't build

[finbar]

Yeah, buying and not getting an improvement can be a pain in the butt. From my experience, it seems to happen if you make the purchase too close to the change of turn. It somehow gets lost in the changeover.

------------------
finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

[cavebear]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>&lt;font size=1&gt;Originally posted by VetLegion on 05-13-2000 06:35 PM&lt;/font&gt;
1) do you play on the zone?

No. Well, sometimes. Not often.

2) do you usually play with people you know?

About 1/2 the time.

3) how long does your average session last?

3 hours.

4) how long does your average game last?

Too variable. Goes from 0ne night to months.

5) if the game is broken, do you ever continue without that person?

About 1/2 the time.

6) what is the optimum number of players for you?

4 or 5.

7) do you often expirience lag?

Always. I'm stuck with dial-up. No DSL or Cable internet here yet.

8) what time do you set for turn to last (max) and what (min).

Start at 1 min, have gone to 20 minutes in space-age play.

9) is RT good for MP civ? (simultaneous turns in SMAC)

Huh?

10) is TOAW system good? (simultaneous planning, and execute at once)

Huh again.

Thanks for replys.
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<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by cavebear (edited May 14, 2000).]</font>

[Carolus Rex]

1) No.

2) Yes. By "know" I mean people hanging out at Apolyton.

3) Hm. Varies from one hour (DaveV:s lunch hour ) to 6-8 hours.

4) Within the game's time frame or in real life? In either case, don't know.

5) No.

6) I'm a civ addict so anything goes, but I like four players a lot.

7) Depends. Sometimes the net is just slow, sometimes it's not. Internet connections, hardware and players' locations also matter.

8) Unlimited.

9) Don't know.

10) Don't know.

You're welcome.

Carolus

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited May 14, 2000).]</font>

[Ming]

1) do you play on the zone?
No... I like to play without people dropping out because they are losing.
2) do you usually play with people you know?
Yes... sometimes we need a sub or one more player, and I'm open minded to have somebody I don't know join in. This gives us a chance to "know" the person for future games. But, unless I'm desperate to play, the majority of people in the game are people I know.
3) how long does your average session last?
They usually go 4 to 6 hours
4) how long does your average game last?
Again, depends on the game. Some can end in a session or two, but most last months.
5) if the game is broken, do you ever continue without that person?
Sometimes... but we usually do everything we can to get the person back in asap.
6) what is the optimum number of players for you?
I like 4, but 3 or 5 isn't bad. Any more than that, and it just takes to long per turn, and it is almost impossible to get everybody together again to continue.
7) do you often expirience lag?
Not too often, but I have a DSL connection. If I'm not hosting, it is because the host has a faster connection than I do. (we usually let the person with the fastest connection host)
8) what time do you set for turn to last (max) and what (min).
We usually play with the "older" crowd, people with families. For that reason, we always play unlimited time. With kids running around you, something will always take you away from the game when you least expect it. Everybody always makes an effort to move as quick as possible, with city maintance and non turn related diplomacy happening between turns. Yeah, it some times takes long, but if you have kids, you really don't have a choice unless you want to have a lot of people miss their turns.
9) is RT good for MP civ? (simultaneous turns in SMAC)
I'd have to see how it works to agree. It works well now, but the time is a killer.
10) is TOAW system good? (simultaneous planning, and execute at once)
Again, I would have to see how it works in Civ before having an opinion.

[kengel]

1) do you play on the zone?
No

2) do you usually play with people you know?
Yes

3) how long does your average session last?
2-4 hours

4) how long does your average game last?
some months

5) if the game is broken, do you ever continue without that person?
Mostly, I only continue with that person (this is for sure, when I know the person is serious about resuming).
If the person just disconnected because of net trouble, I wait until the person is back.

6) what is the optimum number of players for you?
3-4

7) do you often expirience lag?
depends on the host

8) what time do you set for turn to last (max) and what (min).
Very dependent on the actual age, number of troops, lag time etc... at least 30 sec in early games, sometimes even about 30-45 Mins in modern times end game with wars going on

9) is RT good for MP civ? (simultaneous turns in SMAC)
whats "RT"?
I think the actual Civ2 moving system is most practicable.

10) is TOAW system good? (simultaneous planning, and execute at once)
???
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by kengel (edited May 15, 2000).]</font>

[VetLegion]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>7) do you often expirience lag?
Not too often, but I have a DSL connection. If I'm not hosting, it is because the host has a faster connection than I do. (we usually let the person with the fastest connection host)
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

This is very wise. I only learned recently that, because host does most traffic in a game, it is best if host has the best connection.
( and in games I played we used to let the Guy with fastest computer host, the Guy with most RAM host, and the Guy who said he would host host. I was a real barbarian back then )

edit: quote properly
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by VetLegion (edited May 16, 2000).]</font>

[Smash]

It makes perfect sense for the fastest machine to host but isn't it subject to the "only as strong as the weakest link" thing?

[oedo]

1) (zone?)I signed up there today, nice chat
2) (people you know) I use to know the people from playing them, so yes and no
3) (session, how long?)when I don´t get the brake...until the sun rises
4) (average game) different
5) (broken game) I´ll wait, everybody should
6) (average number of players) 4
7) (lag?) depends on the host
8) (setting time) I find setting time useless, especially those 30 sec. settings, it´s only an advantage for the host
9) (RT) no, there are enough realtimegames around
10) (TOAW-whatever this means) don´t know, probablynot

[VetLegion]

Smash

I believe it is so. But if I understood civ2 multiplayer model good, it is structured so that clients communicate with the host, so host has num_players-1 connections and each player only one. If the player with the slowest connection is host, he needs to send data to all clients, which is slower then if he has to send it only to host.

[markusf]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
But if I understood civ2 multiplayer model good, it is structured so that clients communicate with the host, so host has num_players-1 connections and each player only one. If the player with the slowest connection is host, he needs to send data to all clients, which is slower then if he has to send it only to host.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I see that you are in charge of developing multiplayer part of Openciv.

On the start of the game the Host sends all the clients the map. From that point on any changes that you make are sent to the server, and the server then relays all those changes to the other clients. (Changing city production during anyones turn sends the new status to the server). The problem with this is that if someone moves right before the host, and another player changes city production this information is discarded if the player who goes before the host presses next turn.

There is also a lot of problems with cheating. The host would need to have a class deadicated to saving "previous" values. For instance science and cash of every civ and the associated tax rates, Combat units & non combat units. This could then be used to generate graphs, for the demo graphic sections. Another good thing would be to put real passwords on civ. 128 bit RSA encyption of the map data shouldn't be that hard to do. Not sure if its still outlawed in the states. (its like 15 lines of code!)

[Empress]

1) do you play on the zone? Yes
2) do you usually play with people you know?
Yes
3) how long does your average session last?
3 Hours
4) how long does your average game last?
A month?
5) if the game is broken, do you ever continue without that person? Yes
6) what is the optimum number of players for you? The more the merrier
7) do you often expirience lag?
Yes
8) what time do you set for turn to last (max) and what (min). If people, I know, unlimited. If people I don't know, 2 minutes.
9) is RT good for MP civ? (simultaneous turns in SMAC) NO
10) is TOAW system good? (simultaneous planning, and execute at once) ???

I would just like to add-- I HATE real time games. I much prefer turn based, which is why I love Civ

------------------
Apolyton Empress
My first Web Page

[VetLegion]

mafkusf

I am not "In charge" of multiplayer, I am only trying to push the discussion about it, thanks for noticing.

Your assumption before, that when something is changed, all data is sent is suprising, but may be exactly what is causing the lag problems. I have no expirience in programming MP, but I played a variety of games online, and I simply cannot be convinced that it couldnt have been done better.

Yes, good Idea about saving previous values, it must be done. About encryption, I dont know how much lines of code it is, probably not much, but I think it is rather processor intensive, so I am not sure.

[markusf]

Then go 8 bit RSA, its super fast 3 seconds for a save and encypt?. Its been a while since i wrote wrote encyption app. It seems that civ is in constant contact with the server and only sends data that has been changed on the client machine. Then on the hosts turn it sends out all info and resyncs everyone. But no matter how you do it, its going to be a pain in the butt if everyone can change stuff at any time. The server will have to have a fairly complex error checking algorithm with all the data being recieved.

[War4ever]

no
usually
4hrs
can take weeks or hours
prefer not to but a sub is ok sometimes
no more than 4
i dont now, but i have cable
unlimited , so long as noone falls asleap at the helm
no !!
?????

[VetLegion]

markusf, why dont you join the mailinglist?
I believe the site civ3.sourceforge.org has detailed info how to subscribe (a little complicated). Everyone who wants to contribute should join it.

Ok, I see noone likes RT, and I kind of expected that . The TOAW is short of "The Operational Art Of War". It is a strategy/tactical game in which all players plan their turns, but their moves are processed only on the end of turn, simultaneously with other players moves. I havent played it (friend told me about it), and I somehow thought it is a known game.
The ??? I got for answers prove me wrong