November 7, 2003, 04:48
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#301
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
Local Time: 03:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
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Quote:
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Originally posted by techumseh
The American government will not dissavow the use of torture there.
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What the CIA does "out of sight" is in a black hole.
What uniformed military personnel do isn't, especially when it occurs on a US base. The UCMJ provides very strict criminal penalties for torture of prisoners.
What isn't excluded at Gitmo is "coercive interrogation" which covers a lot of psycholigical techniques that are manipulative, but not torturous in nature. Torture is expedient for obtaining low level general information from prisoners, it is not efficient for obtaining ongoing, high level, high accuracy information, or any information of a complex nature.
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Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
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When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
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November 7, 2003, 04:50
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#302
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Emperor
Local Time: 05:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: of the frozen North.
Posts: 4,197
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Oerdin
Is anyone besides techumseh surprised that people who wanted to commit suicide attacks are now trying to commit just plain suicide? I know I'm not.
BTW techumseh I don't think you are a bad guy and I do think you are arguing your case well but I believe the underlying assumptions you have made to reach your conclusions are based upon false premises.
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Based on your and MtG's answers, I revert to my original premise. The only thing that will stop US aggression is enough body bags. As Dubya said, "Bring 'em on!"
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November 7, 2003, 04:52
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#303
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Settler
Local Time: 12:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
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Quote:
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
At least they'd have the balls to go out and do something to (theoretically) better the world. For mom, apple pie and oil. Or whatever floats their boats, or Mountain Navies, as the case may be. 
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So many good wars to fight, eg...
US lawyers have started a war of ****ed-up legal practice against us, and we shall treat every US tort lawyer as un unlawful combattant...
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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November 7, 2003, 04:53
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#304
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Deity
Local Time: 04:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
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So you agree that you have been wrong and that there is no legal rights granted to unlawful combatants by the laws of war? I agree that it would be nice to see but my point is that the G&HCs do not require it.
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Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.
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November 7, 2003, 04:57
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#305
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Settler
Local Time: 12:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Oerdin
Once again you are stating an opinion which is not supported by the actual text of the treaties. The G&HCs expressly remove any and all protections for persons deemed to be unlawful combatants. No trials are required, no court hearings of any kind, in fact they are subject to summary execution.
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I'll just comment on that one. First you evade the issue of procedural guarantee in actually ESTABLISHING who is an unlawful combattant. Second, unlawful combatants are not further protected under the conventions, but the conventions do not remove protections under other legal instruments, namely general human rights laws.
Your claim of them being outside any law requires an argument that the Humanitarian law of war seeks to derogate Human Rights Law, which would of course be utter bullshit.
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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November 7, 2003, 04:59
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#306
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
Local Time: 03:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
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Quote:
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Originally posted by HershOstropoler
So many good wars to fight, eg...
US lawyers have started a war of ****ed-up legal practice against us, and we shall treat every US tort lawyer as un unlawful combattant...
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Promise? If you were eligible to run for office, you could almost get elected President on that platform.
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
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November 7, 2003, 05:07
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#307
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Prince
Local Time: 03:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Play Pentagenesis Beta!
Posts: 351
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The dumbest thing I ever heard of was laws for war. Dumb idea to start with. Nations should be allowed to execute POW's if they see fit. Why didn't they before? Bargainig chips. war should either be total or not at all. All this lawyering and law writing is quite a facetious attempt to make the shedding of blood some how just, because in an attempt at imperial conquest, someone made sure not to use shotguns and dum-dum bullets, or someone defending thier hometown put human feces on their bungi sticks. But now the people are distracted, who is the bad guy, the good guy, who follows the "rules", blah blah blah.
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November 7, 2003, 05:23
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#308
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Deity
Local Time: 04:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
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Quote:
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Originally posted by HershOstropoler
First you evade the issue of procedural guarantee in actually ESTABLISHING who is an unlawful combattant.
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The G&HC do not specify any procedural guarantees nor does it specify how one goes about establishing who is an unlawful combatant other then to say that it must be done in accordance to the customs and laws of war. According to the customs of war if you are found to be a soldier out of uniform, a spy, or an unconvential combatant then you would be either shot on sight or captured and interrogated.
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Quote:
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Second, unlawful combatants are not further protected under the conventions, but the conventions do not remove protections under other legal instruments, namely general human rights laws.
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The preamble of the G&HCs state that their purpose is to provide the legal frame work under which wars will be conducted. Further it is to define what is permissable or not permisable; in short their purpose is to be the laws of war. If it is war time then the G&HC are the the treaties under which all conduct is to be judged.
It would be interesting to see what legal authority treaties signed (such as any human rights treaties) subsiquent to the G&HCs have over warfare. Do you have any specific examples which would pertain to the Gitmo case?
__________________
Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.
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November 7, 2003, 05:24
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#309
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
Local Time: 03:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
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edit - at Neomega's post.
Well, that just settles it then.
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
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November 7, 2003, 05:25
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#310
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Settler
Local Time: 12:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
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Quote:
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Promise? If you were eligible to run for office, you could almost get elected President on that platform.
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What, "almost"?
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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November 7, 2003, 05:26
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#311
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
Local Time: 03:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
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We have a few whiny liberals who'd think your methods were too harsh, even for tort lawyers.
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
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November 7, 2003, 05:27
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#312
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Chieftain
Local Time: 13:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Terra Scania
Posts: 85
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I truly feel for the familys... but it is a war, and a war comes with casultys. 
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"You should count all humans as your kinfolk and the whole world as your foster country."
- Queen Kristina
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November 7, 2003, 05:42
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#313
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Settler
Local Time: 12:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
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"If it is war time then the G&HC are the the treaties under which all conduct is to be judged."
That is a typical layman error. As a default rule, every instrument has to be applied according to its own scope. Second, no instrument shall be construed to exclude others unless it explicitly does so. Third, if it seeks to exclude another instrument, the conflict has to be resolved, which is far from simple especially for multinational treaties, just read the Vienna Convention on Treaty Law. It gets even more complex with other sources of international law, and when you have ius cogens issues - the latter can easily arise when we are talking about torture.
As an example for this, I doubt that the anti-genocide convention is excluded from governing warfare. But it also has a broader scope.
"It would be interesting to see what legal authority treaties signed (such as any human rights treaties) subsiquent to the G&HCs have over warfare. Do you have any specific examples which would pertain to the Gitmo case?"
Human rights treaties usually have clauses about their application in war or, broader, emergencies. Some key articles cannot be suspended even in times of war; I relate you to Art 15 ECHR or Art 4 of the UN Human Rights Covenant II.
Their exact role for Guantanamo is another matter, especially in how far the US is a party, the territorial scope, and US reservations. I would have to research that for an answer, and so would you.
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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November 7, 2003, 05:46
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#314
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
Local Time: 03:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
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Can't we just save ourselves all that trouble and use a 200 meter by 2 meter slit trench and a few .45s or M4A1s? 
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
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November 7, 2003, 05:53
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#315
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Settler
Local Time: 12:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
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I consider a simple tribunal procedure more effective.
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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November 7, 2003, 05:57
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#316
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
Local Time: 03:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
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So we have a fair tribunal, then a fair mass execution?
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
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November 7, 2003, 06:04
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#317
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Settler
Local Time: 12:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
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If that is the result of fair trial... I just doubt that most of the prisoners there qualify.
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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November 7, 2003, 07:16
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#318
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Emperor
Local Time: 13:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Ivory tower
Posts: 3,511
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Meanwhile, in the real world and on the topic of this thread; another chopper, a blackhawk this time, has crashed near Tikrit. There's no real information just yet if was due to technical errors or an attack. The reports of the number of deaths was at four but according to the BBC it's now six.
I might as well post the entire article. It, amoungst other things, claims that the violence is spreading northward, towards Mosul. Might imply something for MtG's military plans if this is true. More ground to cover.
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Quote:
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Six die in US helicopter crash
Other helicopters flew over the crash site
An American Black Hawk helicopter has been forced down near Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit, killing all six soldiers on board.
The US military is investigating whether the chopper was attacked or suffered mechanical problems.
American troops have secured the scene near the Tigris River in north Iraq.
Last weekend, an American Chinook helicopter was shot down, killing 16 soldiers in the biggest single strike on US forces since they invaded Iraq.
The Black Hawk went down on a riverbank along the Tigris River about a kilometre from the US base in Saddam Hussein's former palace in Tikrit.
Smoke was seen rising from the wreckage as other helicopters hovered above.
"We don't know if it was a mechanical failure or hostile fire," Major Josslyn Aberle told the Associated Press.
Factfile: Black Hawk
Profile: Saddam's home town
All the soldiers killed were from the 101st Airborne Division.
On 25 October a Black Hawk helicopter was shot down near Tikrit, injuring one crew member.
Tikrit lies in the heart of the "Sunni Triangle" - the region around Baghdad seen as most loyal to the ousted regime of Saddam Hussein.
It has been the scene of continued resistance to US-led forces.
In continuing violence elsewhere, a US convoy was ambushed in Mosul early on Friday morning, coming under fire from small arms and rocket-propelled grenades, the US military said.
One soldier died and six others were injured in the clash.
This brings the number of US soldiers killed in action since President George W Bush declared major combat over on 1 May to 140.
In a separate attack, a roadside bomb in the city injured three US soldiers.
Mosul, Iraq's third largest city and close to the semi-autonomous Kurdish areas, was quiet until relatively recently.
Correspondents say the spate of attacks there has prompted concern among US commanders that guerrilla attacks are spreading north from the Sunni Triangle.
Chinook warning
The attack came hours after a memorial service was held for the men killed when their Chinook helicopter was shot down on Sunday.
"Death was in the cause of freedom. They were serving our country and answering our nation's call to fight terrorists," Colonel David Teeples, commanding officer of the men's unit, said.
Army officials said the Chinook's crew apparently had a warning of an approaching missile seconds before it struck, the Associated Press reports.
The crew managed to launch flares designed to draw the heat-seeking missile away but the defensive measure did not work.
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Source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3249493.stm
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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer
In GAIS we trust!
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November 7, 2003, 07:18
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#319
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King
Local Time: 13:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hooked on a feeling
Posts: 1,780
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So get your Naomi Klein books and move it or I'll seriously bash your faces in - Supercitizen to stupid students
Lord know, I've made some judgement errors as a mod here. The fact that most of you are still allowed to post here is proof of that. - Rah
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November 7, 2003, 07:21
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#320
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Emperor
Local Time: 13:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Ivory tower
Posts: 3,511
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__________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer
In GAIS we trust!
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November 7, 2003, 09:06
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#321
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Emperor
Local Time: 21:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Caerdydd, Cymru
Posts: 5,303
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That is 3 helos in less than two weeks...
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"People would rather die than think, and most people do." - Bertrand Russell
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November 7, 2003, 09:19
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#322
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Emperor
Local Time: 13:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Ivory tower
Posts: 3,511
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Maybe they are to vulnerable after all.
It wasn't that easy for the AI in Gunship 2000.... 
__________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer
In GAIS we trust!
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November 7, 2003, 09:26
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#323
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King
Local Time: 03:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
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MtG, you make a very good point about "questioning." But, do "terrorist" prisoners present materially different threat issues than do ordinary soldiers taken in combat? If they do, what we ought to do is seek a change in the laws of war so as to permit "questioning" of such POWs.
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November 7, 2003, 09:52
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#324
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King
Local Time: 03:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
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HO, I agree with your position.
Unlike MtG some others here, I do not believe that we had the right to simply gun down the AQ as we captured them.
Question: if they are no more than foot soldiers in a terrorist organization that wages war primarily if not exclusively by unlawful means are they themselves quilty of being war criminals?
I am thinking now about about being a "foot soldier" in a gang that exists for committing various sorts of crimes. Is such a "foot soldier" just as much guilty as the bosses?
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Last edited by Ned; November 7, 2003 at 10:44.
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November 7, 2003, 10:23
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#325
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Emperor
Local Time: 06:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Posts: 3,815
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Ned
Question: if they are no more than foot soldiers in a terrorist organization that in wages war primarily if not exclusively by unlawful means are they themselves quilty of being war criminals?
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Yes, that is itself a warcrime, but not among the most serious.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Japher: "crap, did I just post in this thread?"
"Bloody hell, Lefty.....number one in my list of persons I have no intention of annoying, ever." Bugs ****ing Bunny
From a 6th grader who readily adpated to internet culture: "Pay attention now, because your opinions suck"
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November 7, 2003, 11:52
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#326
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Settler
Local Time: 12:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
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What Lefty said.
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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November 7, 2003, 13:55
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#327
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
Local Time: 03:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
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Quote:
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Originally posted by MOBIUS
That is 3 helos in less than two weeks...
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Out of several hundred flying every day.
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
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November 7, 2003, 13:58
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#328
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
Local Time: 03:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Fenway Pahk
Posts: 1,755
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Ned
MtG, you make a very good point about "questioning." But, do "terrorist" prisoners present materially different threat issues than do ordinary soldiers taken in combat? If they do, what we ought to do is seek a change in the laws of war so as to permit "questioning" of such POWs.
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Since they don't answer to any national command authority, but instead to an organization which calls on them to continue fighting, and since they've sworn oaths to jihad against the US, yadda yadda blah blah, they're a bit differently motivated than say, your average soldier.
And why should we open up a can of worms trying to change a 50 year old international treaty, when these people's conduct places them outside that treaty anyway?
__________________
Bush-Cheney 2008. What's another amendment between friends?
*******
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all.
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November 7, 2003, 14:06
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#329
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Warlord
Local Time: 12:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 217
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Just my tupennyworth on this subject;- I'm AMAZED there were any survivors at all from a downed Chinook.
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Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
"The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84
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November 7, 2003, 16:14
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#330
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King
Local Time: 03:42
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
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Quote:
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Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Since they don't answer to any national command authority, but instead to an organization which calls on them to continue fighting, and since they've sworn oaths to jihad against the US, yadda yadda blah blah, they're a bit differently motivated than say, your average soldier.
And why should we open up a can of worms trying to change a 50 year old international treaty, when these people's conduct places them outside that treaty anyway?
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Because United States has been among the leaders campaigning for the rule of law historically?
I think we are doing the right thing in Guantánamo. But it doesn't look right and it continues to draw unfavorable attention.
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