Holy ****! (Iraq) Helo shot down, up to 35 aboard, 20+ casualties

[HershOstropoler]

The dear leader is a great planner.

Btw, after Bush said that his Iraq strategy works, a local newspaper had a picture of him in that story with the subtitle: "George Bush, strategist". Almost broke down laughing....

[MichaeltheGreat]

How did you resist?

I'd have fallen on the floor laughing at that, myself.

[HershOstropoler]

I held on to the table.

[Kropotkin]

Mtg: So you've had a good look at the map and made some assumptions that people outside the triangle woun't help. What about Bagdad?

[Gatekeeper]

Hmm ... I'm not military, but doesn't this incident make the case for bringing in more heavy ground divisions rather than putting so much of our faith, so to speak, on special forces and air power?

It's my opinion that special forces and air power have a crucial role in Iraq and other theatres of operation (Afghanistan, et al.), but we seem to be relying on them too much while not bringing in enough troops to actually hold the ground. Same goes with gee-whiz technology —*it's all great, but in the end, isn't it necessary to have a lot of ground troops present in order to keep a grip on what they've paid in blood, sweat and tears to gain in the first place?

Gatekeeper

[Theben]

Originally posted by NeOmega
It is almost as if OBL is hunting America as his next big game.

Gee, ya think?

They[islamic fundamentalists]- and notably Osama bin Laden- interpreted the collapse of the Soviet Union in a different way. In thier perception it was they, not America, that had won the Cold War. In their eyes, the Soviet Union was not the benign helper in the common struggle against the Jews and the Western imperialists but rather the fountainhead of atheism and unbelief, the oppressor of many millions of Muslim subjects, and the invader of Afganistan. As they saw it...it was their struggle in Afganistan that had defeated the mighty Red Army and driven the Soviets to defeat and collapse. Having disposed of the more ferocious and more dangerous of the two infidel superpowers, their next task was to deal with the other, the United States, and in this war the compromisers were tools and agents of the infidel enemy. For a variety of reasons, the Islamic fundamentalists believed that fighting America would be a simpler and easier task.[emp added]. In their view, the United States had become morally corrupt, socially degenerate, and in consequence, politically and militarily enfeebled.

--Bernard Lewis, The Crisis of Islam, pp. 62-63.

So we're also stuck in the situation, now having thrown down the gauntlet, of emboldening the fundys if we lose or withdraw early, which would encourage more terrorism as well. So we have to win, otherwise we're effed.

[Theben]

Originally posted by NeOmega
I really don't see Iraqis doing the suicide bombings, as they were a more secular ISlam, but losing a family member has driven others to such bombings....

That might make it easier. The Quran is very specific about martyrdom, in that it can only be achieved if the martyr is killed by another. The act of suicide will always end in Hell.

[Theben]

From the same book:

Islamic law books are very clear on the subject of suicide. It is a major sin and is punished by eternal damnation in the form of the endless repetition of the act by which the suicide killed himself. The following passages, from the traditions of the Prophet...

-p. 153

...which goes on to list various methods of suicide and what happens but I'll skip that. Basically Muhammad hisself said that suicide is a no-no, which is why I don't get how the Fundys think that suicide will get them to paradise.
OTOH, it's heart warming to think that the 9/11 bombers are being blown to bits for eternity.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Space05us
First they welcome us then they celebrate when we are killed, as far as Im concerned they can go **** themselves.

This might come as a surprise, but there are more than two Iraqis and they are not all Borg-like drones.

[Kirnwaffen]

Hmm ... I'm not military, but doesn't this incident make the case for bringing in more heavy ground divisions rather than putting so much of our faith, so to speak, on special forces and air power?

I don't think so. What we have on the ground right now are mostly heavy divisions, with the notable exception of the airborne divisions that are there. Very little in the way of special forces is still in Iraq at the moment.

[Dis]

you know. We could leave the country. Nuke it flat. And the problem would be solved.

[SlowwHand]

Glass making capabilities being explored?

[Theben]

Originally posted by Dissident
you know. We could leave the country. Nuke it flat. And the problem would be solved.

You'd have to nuke every islamic country to have that "problem solved". And then make sure all muslims remaining are "under guard".

[Dis]

so you're saying all muslims are threats to the western world.


interesting.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Theben
...which goes on to list various methods of suicide and what happens but I'll skip that. Basically Muhammad hisself said that suicide is a no-no, which is why I don't get how the Fundys think that suicide will get them to paradise.
OTOH, it's heart warming to think that the 9/11 bombers are being blown to bits for eternity.

Because they differentiate these attacks as not being suicide per se, but being attacks against infidels in which the bomber happens to die - i.e., the goal in triggering the bomb is the attack against the infidel, and the lost of life is simply an inevitable consequence, since the attacker has to personally smuggle or forcefully deliver the weapon to the target.

This is something entirely different than just randomly shooting or drowning yourself or whatever, in that the primary, even exclusive goal of these is to take your own life, whereas in "suicide bombings" death is just an unavoidable consequence of the nature of the attack on the infidels, thus it is a death that qualifies one as a martyr.

Fundy leaders have issue fatwa on this matter.

[Gatekeeper]

Lemmings.

[KrazyHorse]

CBC news is also claiming that in addition to the 15 dead in the chopper and one dead in a separate incident that there are reports of 8 other American deaths today which have not been confirmed by US military sources.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/11/02/iraq_031102

There are also reports of as many as nine Americans being killed in three other incidents around Iraq. Only one of those deaths has been confirmed by military sources.

[Ned]

Small point, if we cannot find the arms caches that are supply the Ba'athist resistance, how can we be sure that we can ever find where any WMD are hidden?

IMO, we could increase troop levels to two million and still not end the Ba'athist resistance. The only way we can end it is for the Iraqi's themselves to join the fight against the Ba'athist. We have to pull out and be invisible.

I think Bush is falling into Johnson's trap of turning a local war into a US war. True, in this case, we started the war, but we need to end in the same way we ended the Vietnam war. "Vietnamization II."

Israel faces the same problem. Despite enormous firepower advantages, they will never defeat the Palestinian resistance. What Israel needs to do is somehow get the Palestinians themselves to fight the terrorists on behalf of a new Palestinian state.

[Dis]

easier said than done

[Theben]

Originally posted by Dissident
so you're saying all muslims are threats to the western world.


interesting.

No, I'm saying that nuking an Islamic nation, especially one as holy to muslims as Iraq, would rouse a huge upsurge in terrorists from all muslim lands.

[Alexander's Horse]

360 dead so far. The Pentagon says there's 7 wounded for every KIA.

Let's see, 3 x 7 is 21 = 2100; 6 x 7 = 420

2100 plus 420 is 2520

2520 plus 360 is 2880 total casualties thus far.

That's quite a lot, over a full year about 5000 casualties.

How many troops are there? 150,000?

That would give a casualty rate of about 3%.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ned
Small point, if we cannot find the arms caches that are supply the Ba'athist resistance, how can we be sure that we can ever find where any WMD are hidden?

If there are any live WMD, they're TOAB without access to delivery systems, so if you have one, you have the other nearby. In other words, artillery rounds aren't likely to be found where the guns are. There are also strict handling and storage procedures, to keep the rounds both safe and viable. I doubt the Iraqis with access to that hardware were inclined to half-ass it, or were improperly trained.

IMO, we could increase troop levels to two million and still not end the Ba'athist resistance.

We don't have two million troops, and even if we did, we could shut down the *******s for far less.

The only way we can end it is for the Iraqi's themselves to join the fight against the Ba'athist. We have to pull out and be invisible.

(a) The Baathists have run the dump for 30 yeas - they have made sure that thos who are best armed, and best supported, are those who are loyal and committed to the party, by the blood on their hands, if not the blood in their veins.

(b) Until that disparity in weapons, support and training is cured, the US is the only stronger force on the ground. We're stuck there - if anyone doesn't have the huevos for it, too damn bad. Hoo-ah!

(c) Any move we make to become "invisible" not only encourages the *******s, it demoralizes our supporters and makes them think back to 1991, when we didn't support a rebellion we never authorized or bought into, and they paid the price. The last thing they're going to do now is pick up our slack if we show signs of being ready to cut and run because we don't have the balls to stick it out and win.

I think Bush is falling into Johnson's trap of turning a local war into a US war. True, in this case, we started the war, but we need to end in the same way we ended the Vietnam war. "Vietnamization II."

This was a US war from the beginning, and our fearless leaders were so sold on that shock and awe horseshit they didn't imagine any other alternatives. The way we "ended" the Vietnam war was to accomplish nothing but to set ourselves up for a strategic defeat. But this time, there is a larger enemy that wants a lot more than what Bac Ho, Mao and Brezhnev hoped to gain.

Israel faces the same problem. Despite enormous firepower advantages, they will never defeat the Palestinian resistance. What Israel needs to do is somehow get the Palestinians themselves to fight the terrorists on behalf of a new Palestinian state.

Harvest time up there in the Santa Cruz mountains, Ned?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
360 dead so far. The Pentagon says there's 7 wounded for every KIA.

Let's see, 3 x 7 is 21 = 2100; 6 x 7 = 420

2100 plus 420 is 2520

2520 plus 360 is 2880 total casualties thus far.

That's quite a lot, over a full year about 5000 casualities.

How many troops are there? 150,000?

That would give a casualty rate of about 3%.

Which would ordinarily be about 10-12 percent in the line companies, and .5 percent or so amongst the REMFs, but we're having heavier than normal proportions of casualties in Transport, MP and Civil Affairs units.

[KrazyHorse]

Isn't that what you'd expect from this type of resistance?

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Ned
Small point, if we cannot find the arms caches that are supply the Ba'athist resistance, how can we be sure that we can ever find where any WMD are hidden?

Why are we assuming these are Ba'athists? Unless I missed something, the Ba'athist regime with whatever supporters it had evaporated away in the spring.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


Which would ordinarily be about 10-12 percent in the line companies, and .5 percent or so amongst the REMFs, but we're having heavier than normal proportions of casualties in Transport, MP and Civil Affairs units.

10-12% would be very high for an occupation/police action.

I've been trying to get a fix on the intensity - its higher than Northern Ireland, or Afghanistan for that matter, which is a bit of surprise. Its definitely much lower than Vietnam - thus far at least.

Those long supply lines must be a real b*tch. Presumably most supplies have to be trucked in.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Yes, the ISSS, SRG, and Saddam Fedayeen all either went heroically to Allah, or else converted into nice, "love they neighbor" touchy-feely type guys.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


10-12% would be very high for an occupation/police action.

I've been trying to get a fix on the intensity - its higher than Northern Ireland, or Afghanistan for that matter, which is a bit of surprise. Its definitely much lower than Vietnam - thus far at least.

Those long supply lines must be a real b*tch. Presumably most supplies have to be trucked in.

The slant towards the MPs, Transport and Civil Affairs types takes the line company casualty rates down, but I haven't seen any type of organizational breakdown. The thing is that there's nothing so far that indicates we're seeing large scale resistance, just a fairly small to moderate number who are getting some operational tempo established.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Yes, the ISSS, SRG, and Saddam Fedayeen all either went heroically to Allah, or else converted into nice, "love they neighbor" touchy-feely type guys.

Hmm. Their ex-roster may be militant, but it is not necessarily Ba'athist.

[Ted Striker]

MTG do you buy the theory that if we can locate the ringleaders and either kill them or jail them, that most of this will stop?