Holy ****! (Iraq) Helo shot down, up to 35 aboard, 20+ casualties - Page 8

HershOstropoler · November 4, 2003, 17:54

"but to compare them to my inlaws at Auschwitz IS a vile trivializations"

Which is why I said "It's far from the holocaust". Did you overread that?

But your "Gitmo is a detention camp for people caught on the battlefield" is a travialization, I stand by that.

lord of the mark · November 4, 2003, 17:58

Cbs Feb 2003

'The U.S. Defense Department confirmed Thursday that there has been another suicide attempt among inmates at its Guantanamo Bay prison for terrorist suspects, bringing the number of five in three weeks.

"Medical and psychiatric teams are working to try to prevent further injury or attempts," Pentagon spokeswoman Navy Lt. Cmdr. Barbara Burfeind said, declining further comment.

Including the 10 attempts in all of 2002, the new case brought the total to 15 since the high-security prison was built on the U.S. naval base a year ago to house men captured in the fight against terrorism. '

15 attempts among over 600 people held for over a year. Maybe worse than most US high schools, but i doubt much worse than most prisons.

And notice - psychiatric teams working to prevent further attempts - Awh, that proves how mean we are - we're subjecting them to therapy!!! Think the Nazis ever did this for my inlaws?

Look - young men commit suicide. being in prison is rotten. I can understand it would make you want to commit suicide. Even if the conditions are ideal.

HershOstropoler · November 4, 2003, 17:58

"Mionrs - what 17 year olds?"

I think 15 or 16 for the youngest.

"Youre comparing this to people who murdered 4 year olds."

I'm not comparing Guantanomo to Auschwitz. Read again.

"Driven to suicide - youre comparing this to being murdered?"

Depending on the circumstances, it can be murder.

"How many people commit suicide in european prisons?"

Less than in the US, I'd assume.

"yet we're told that theres a huge moral difference between the US and europe cause we have the death penalty."

I don't know what this has to do with the issue, but that's definately correct.

"These men were caught on battlefields."

Or in some medreasa. How do you know?

"Theyre illegal combatants"

As established under which procedure, by whom?

"not POWS cause they are not part of a recognized army"

Irrelevant.

"Do you really think theyre NOT members of AQ?"

I don't know. That's why I want an independent tribunal to establish that. Next time someone accuses you of something, will you be happy with the prosecutor saying "nah, i don't treally think he's innocent" to lock you up indefinately?

lord of the mark · November 4, 2003, 18:02

Gtimo IS a detention camp. The folks there have been caught in battlefields (including shootouts in pakistani cities and elsewhere) They are also interrogated there ( to not get as much info out of them as possible would be idiotic) And theyre not being mistreated or killed.

Example - on of the individuals there is probably Khalid Sheik mohammed. He was caught in Pakistan, where he was running global operations for al qaeeda. Do you think hes not a terrorist?

lord of the mark · November 4, 2003, 18:12

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"I don't know. That's why I want an independent tribunal to establish that. Next time someone accuses you of something, will you be happy with the prosecutor saying "nah, i don't treally think he's innocent" to lock you up indefinately?

we're at war. An independent tribunal would be an opportunity for them to gain info to use in defeating interrogation, and to pass on information to the outside. We possess Al Qaeda documents showing how they attempt to counter interrogation, etc. We know they attempt to pass info in and out (er didnt you hear that there were alleged spies among the chaplains down there) Is it possible that the Bush admin is using this to arrest political dissidents, etc? er, I havent noticed any missing. Chomsky- check. Ramsey Clark - check. etc. Or maybe political types in pakistan? Doubtful. Pakis would wanna keep those. And in the cases where political islamist types have been arrested, like Abu bashir in Indonesia, hes being held and tried there, not at Gitmo. So i dont think this is being used politically no. So the risk is that they have taken innocents by mistake. Thats bad if it happens, but given the nature of the war we're fighting i can accept that risk.

To make it personal. I know a lot of folks who study at Jewish yeshivas. I know that there are yeshivas that are aligned with the terrorist Kahanist movement. If the US or Israeli govt expected an imminent threat from the kahanists, and detained someone i knew from those yeshivas without trial, and it turned out that they were innocent and just got caught up - id say thats too bad, mistakes happen, and they should have known better than to go to a yeshiva aligned with terrorists.

HershOstropoler · November 4, 2003, 18:14

"The folks there have been caught in battlefields (including shootouts in pakistani cities and elsewhere)"

How do you know that? Even the names are in part not documented.

"And theyre not being mistreated"

You're dreaming.

"on of the individuals there is probably Khalid Sheik mohammed"

Probably? But you know for certain that everyone there is guilty. Please.

It's pissing in the face of habeas corpus for no good reason. It's just as useless as the British suspension of habeas corpus in NI and the arbitrary arrests of IRA suspects.

lord of the mark · November 4, 2003, 18:17

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"but to compare them to my inlaws at Auschwitz IS a vile trivializations"

Which is why I said "It's far from the holocaust". Did you overread that?

You didnt state that when tecumseh made the comarison (unless ive missed something) You saw no need to discuss the matter then. Only when i responded did you say its far from the holocaust. A necessary distancing from an untenable position. You then compared my statements about Gitmo to Tecumsehs about the holocaust. You may disagree that gitmo is a detention camp for terrorists, but can you really think that is a "trivialization" such as comparing it to Auschwitz? Or is it just a nice rhetorical twist to turn the thread around?

Feh!

HershOstropoler · November 4, 2003, 18:20

"we're at war."

Fundamental error. The war only exists as a marketing ploy. I still wait for those rules being extended to the war on drugs and the war on obesity.

"An independent tribunal would be an opportunity for them to gain info to use in defeating interrogation"

Oh the horror. It's called the right to defend yourself.

"To make it personal. I know a lot of folks who study at Jewish yeshivas. I know that there are yeshivas that are aligned with the terrorist Kahanist movement. If the US or Israeli govt expected an imminent threat from the kahanists, and detained someone i knew from those yeshivas without trial, and it turned out that they were innocent and just got caught up - id say thats too bad, mistakes happen, and they should have known better than to go to a yeshiva aligned with terrorists."

Now that's monumentally ****ed up. I don't like to bring up that analogy, but you know what Schutzhaft was? You know the arguments of Best on legal counsel, judicial review etc?

lord of the mark · November 4, 2003, 18:20

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"The folks there have been caught in battlefields (including shootouts in pakistani cities and elsewhere)"

How do you know that? Even the names are in part not documented.

Your right. Lets let AQ know exactly who we have in custody. that way, when one of their cells goes quiet, they wont have to guess who we've got. And they wont have to discontinue operations, or change locations out of fear of the info we'd collect. I appreciate your concern.

lord of the mark · November 4, 2003, 18:24

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"we're at war."

Fundamental error. The war only exists as a marketing ploy. I still wait for those rules being extended to the war on drugs and the war on obesity.

"

Fine. You have a different opinion and dont think its a war. thats a huge issue, and one i dont intend to debate here.

So you accept that starting with my belief that it IS a war, the rest of my position is correct?

HershOstropoler · November 4, 2003, 18:24

"but can you really think that is a "trivialization" such as comparing it to Auschwitz?"

Of course it's not. What is your problem? that I did not respond to techusomething? Simple, I think you have a genuine view worthy of debating it. I do not think that of techuguy.

lord of the mark · November 4, 2003, 18:26

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"but can you really think that is a "trivialization" such as comparing it to Auschwitz?"

Of course it's not. What is your problem? that I did not respond to techusomething? Simple, I think you have a genuine view worthy of debating it. I do not think that of techuguy.

He is not the only one with his opinion, it is not by any means the first time i have seen it. I think it is worth debating, and thats why I CHOSE to debate it. You need not debate it if you dont wish to, but i find it rude that you (apparently) attempt to divert me from that.

lord of the mark · November 4, 2003, 18:28

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"but can you really think that is a "trivialization" such as comparing it to Auschwitz?"

Of course it's not. What is your problem? that I did not respond to techusomething? Simple, I think you have a genuine view worthy of debating it. I do not think that of techuguy.

My problem is that you called what i did trivialazation, when i had just (more justifiably) called someone elses post trivialization. Standard rhetorical trope. Turn the accusation on the accuser, for shock value, and to divert the discussion. Call Israelis Nazis, etc. I just called you on it this time.

HershOstropoler · November 4, 2003, 18:29

"that way, when one of their cells goes quiet, they wont have to guess who we've got."

Oh please, you really think they can't figure that out?

HershOstropoler · November 4, 2003, 18:31

"My problem is that you called what i did trivialazation,"

I don't care about people who throw around the Nazi attribute generously. People like you who undermine fundamental rights by claiming wars, security needs etc and trivializing the first signs of the plague are much more dangerous.

lord of the mark · November 4, 2003, 18:34

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
""."

Now that's monumentally ****ed up. I don't like to bring up that analogy, but you know what Schutzhaft was?

Under the 3rd reich a person in "protective custody", apparently someone held for eugenic reasons of some kind.

Again - this isnt a totalitarian regime pursuing race enemies - its a democracy that is IN FACT under attack. Your comparison is vile, and unwarrented.

lord of the mark · November 4, 2003, 18:36

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"that way, when one of their cells goes quiet, they wont have to guess who we've got."

Oh please, you really think they can't figure that out?

Yup. The cells operate independently, increasingly so in recent months. Some people are captured, some are killed, some disappear underground where they cant safely communicate. I think they cant figure out who is in which category.

Alexander's Horse · November 4, 2003, 18:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Case
...and given what Bush and Blair are going through, such a deployment would also sort out John Howard

That was part of my thinking

Hey Case, you know where I live - make yourself known if you see horsie in the garden or out and about in the neighbourhood. We like to go to the park at the top of Bodribb - one of Canberra's best - spectacular view - probably the highest point in the valley.

Ned · November 4, 2003, 18:38

LoTM, although we cannot be certain, but the NVA intervened when we did. Had we simply stayed out and support the ARVN, history might have been different.

The fall of Vietnam after we pulled out occured because we failed to support SV after the NV violated the peace accords. Had Watergate not occurred, I guarantee you that SV would not have fallen.

lord of the mark · November 4, 2003, 18:40

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
". People like you who undermine fundamental rights by claiming wars, security needs etc and trivializing the first signs of the plague are much more dangerous.

Ive always been a dangerous man.

I do beleive we are at war.

I am quite aware of the danger of abuse. I am wary of the sending of US citizens to Gitmo, and of the numbers there. I am opposed to expanding the govt rights under a new version of the Patriot act. I am pleased at the vigoruus deabate now under way about the existing Patriot act provisions. I think the detentions at Gitmo are about the least dangerous of the legal changes weve made.

I also know that Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus with less legal justification.

I also know that what we are fighting is itself a plague, and a dangerous one.

lord of the mark · November 4, 2003, 18:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Ned
LoTM, although we cannot be certain, but the NVA intervened when we did. Had we simply stayed out and support the ARVN, history might have been different.

.

I was not suggesting that the NVA was involved in '65. I was drawing a contrast between the circumstances of Vietnamization under Nixon and the circumstances in Iraq today.

Sorry for my misleading wording.

Alexander's Horse · November 4, 2003, 19:03

Rock the Casbah by The Clash (pics)
Now the king told the boogie men
You have to let that raga drop
The oil down the desert way
Has been shakin' to the top
The shiek he drove his Cadillac
He went a' cruisnin' down the ville
The muezzin was a' standing
On the radiator grille
CHORUS
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
By order of the prophet
We ban that boogie sound
Degenerate the faithful
With that craazy Casbah sound
But the Bedouin they brought out
The electric camel drum
The local guitar picker
Got his guitar picking thumb
As soon as the shareef
Had cleared the square
They began to wail
CHORUS
Now over at the temple
Oh! They really pack 'em in
The in crowd say it's cool
To dig this chanting thing
But as the wind changed direction
The temple band took five
The crowd caught a wiff
Of that crazy Casbah jive
CHORUS
The king called up his jet fighters
He said you better eaarn your pay
Drop your bombs between the minarets
Down the Casbah way
As soon as the shareef was
Chauffeured outta there
The jet pilots tuned to
The cockpit radio blare
As soon as the shareef was
Outta their hair
The jet pilots wailed
CHORUS
He thinks it's not kosher
Fundamentally he can't take it.
You know he really hates it.

Ned · November 4, 2003, 19:57

Quote:

Originally posted by lord of the mark

I was not suggesting that the NVA was involved in '65. I was drawing a contrast between the circumstances of Vietnamization under Nixon and the circumstances in Iraq today.

Sorry for my misleading wording.

All this highlights is how much easier it should be to turn this over to the Iraqi's who do not have to face conventional military forces.

Alexander's Horse · November 4, 2003, 20:41

yes - hand it over

let's see, you'll end up with a Kurdish state in the north, a Baathist sunni state in the centre and a shiite islamic republic in the south.

brilliant!

Ned · November 4, 2003, 20:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
yes - hand it over

let's see, you'll end up with a Kurdish state in the north, a Baathist sunni state in the centre and a shiite islamic republic in the south.

brilliant!

I think that is how it is going to turn out anyway. These people are really separate nations within one jurisdiction as it is. The Brits were very good at drawing lines on maps that divided peoples and threw the incompatible together. It was almost as if they planned to create instability in the world.

Alexander's Horse · November 4, 2003, 20:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Ned

It was almost as if they planned to create instability in the world.

Its called "divide and rule". I think they learned it from the Romans

MichaeltheGreat · November 4, 2003, 21:08

Quote:

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Your right. Lets let AQ know exactly who we have in custody. that way, when one of their cells goes quiet, they wont have to guess who we've got. And they wont have to discontinue operations, or change locations out of fear of the info we'd collect. I appreciate your concern.

Any type of covert organization, whether criminal, terrorist, or insurgent, or resistance, sets up means to determine the status of it's various components. It's a basic part of operational security. I really doubt AQ is capable of carrying on the types of operations it has, while being fundamentally incapable of determining whether significant parties have been compromised.

techumseh · November 4, 2003, 21:16

Quote:

Originally posted by lord of the mark

this is a repeated trope from the far left - ashcroft is Heydrich.

Mr, tecumseh, my great grandfather was murdered by the Nazis. My parents in law were in Auschwitz. 3 of my wifes 4 grandparents were murdered by the Nazis.

I can assure you, that all rather have dealt with the ashcroft Justice dept.

Gitmo is a detention camp for people caught on the battlefield. No children. No women, afaik. No one is killed there. No one has to back breaking labor. No prisoner has to do ANY labor, AFAIK. Harsh interrogation techniques perhaps, but then these are people who have been involved in terrorist orgs and have actually turned over terrorist plans under interrogation. These are not innocents, not vicitims of racial persecution. And their treatment, as far as i can tell, is something that my inlaws and their fellow inmates would have dreamed of receiving.

The comparison is not only wrong, it is vile, and - yes - trivializes the holocaust.

Never claimed it was Auschwitz, or the holocaust. Said the current regime in the US had commonalities with Nazi Germany, including attacks on the civil rights of their own people. And concentration camps. Gitmo IS a concentration camp, NOT an extermination camp. BTW concentration camps were developed first by the British, during the Boer War. They were intended to isolate the Boer Kommandos from the civilian population which supported them.

Conditions at Gitmo - people held without charges, no rights, denied the status of Prisoners of War, under threat of execution by military tribunal - has produced many attempted suicides. The American government will not dissavow the use of torture there. It is noteworthy that these conditions would not be considered legal within the US proper.

BTW, how do you know that all prisoners at Gitmo are terrorists? Because the US government says so? I guess we'll never really know, will we, since there has never been formal charges or a trial.

Racial profiling is another odius practice of the Bush regime. Many people of Arabic descent have been arrested for no other reason than their national origin. One Canadian citizen who was born in Syria was arrested by American officials when his plane stopped over at JFK while returning from a Carribean vacation. He was deported to Syria, where he was imprisoned and tortured for months before the Canadian government secured his release. Many Canadians of Arab or Iranian descent will no longer travel to the US because they are afraid. It's an emotion I'm sure your relatives would understand.

Quote:

He is not the only one with his opinion, it is not by any means the first time i have seen it. I think it is worth debating, and thats why I CHOSE to debate it.

Thank you.

MichaeltheGreat · November 4, 2003, 21:20

Quote:

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Yup - mtg IS quite harsh on Rummy, Wolfie and Feith. He doesnt mention Rice and Cheney alot, perhaps because they are not directly in the way of the military people who he respects more.

I just lump them in with the rest.

Quote:

I think MTG has a tendency which he shares with the left to lump Rummy and Wolfie together. Which i can understand, since Wolfie publicly supports Rummy and hasnt resigned or anything. (of course you could say the same for Powell vis a vis Bush, etc) My sense is that the Rummy-Cheney view is quite different from the Wolfie-Bolton neo con view, despite past shared affiliations in PNAC, etc. Wolfie I think is a more or less genuine hard line neo-wilsonian - he honestly thinks we can build a democracy in Iraq, and that we need to to win the WOT. Rummy and Cheney, I think, share the general conservative skepticm of nation-building and neo-wilsonianism in general. I have no proof, and i know that it was Wolfie, not Rummy who dressed down Shinseki in public on the number of occupation troops, but I the reluctance to use more troops seems more in line with Rummys goals (make the army lean and mean, make it more "usable") then Wolfies ("reinvent the Middle East") I suspect this leads to tension on a number of occupation related issues.

I would suggest reading an interview with Wolfie by Dave Ignatius of the WaPo. Sorry , i dont have the link handy.

I'd lump Aspin in with the same bunch, if he were still around. I'm a results oriented sort of guy. I don't care about the labels put on the ideology, I care about the assigned mission, the means and obstacles, and the feasibility of overcoming the obstacles with the means allocated. Kind of the Pathfinder squad leader's point of view, what a coincidence.

HershOstropoler · November 5, 2003, 03:34

Quote:

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Under the 3rd reich a person in "protective custody", apparently someone held for eugenic reasons of some kind.

Not quite. Anyone called an internal enemy by police or party officials could be arrested and isolated. No review, no appeal, no reasons. The justifications cooked up sound exactly like the ones for Guantanamo.

As for democracy, well, somewhat.

As for war, it's a crime problem, not a war.

As for terrorism, it is a plague. And you are infected, too.