C3C - Epic Game Units

[David Murray]

>>Marine – Cost: 12, Attack: 12, No ZOC<<

12? The marine costs 12 shields?

Or, does he cost 120 shields? I make that 20 shields more than a tank, which STILL has better stats than the new marine.

The marine should be attack 12, defence 10 to make him worth 120 shields.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by JesseSmith
Netherland's Swiss Mercenary
Cost: 30, 1.4.1, Upgrade: Musketeer, Req. Feudalism

a) Musketeer, not Musketman?

b) Bad upgrade decision. Very bad. Wish all players who try the Netherlands happy micromanaging while pillaging and reconnecting saltpeter.

[WarpStorm]

I assume that is a mistake (it can't be built by the Dutch). Following up the upgrade chain the next logical upgrade would be the Rifleman.

[player1]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


a) Musketeer, not Musketman?

b) Bad upgrade decision. Very bad. Wish all players who try the Netherlands happy micromanaging while pillaging and reconnecting saltpeter.

Don't foget that Musketmen have Defensive strike ability.

[Harovan]

Don't know if this makes up for twice the shield cost with the same defense (and both are defenders). Probably not. Oh well, modding time again.

[Jamski]

Defender with an attack of 2, which is used for the first strike... could be pretty handy, eh?

-Jam

[Chieftess]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


a) Musketeer, not Musketman?

b) Bad upgrade decision. Very bad. Wish all players who try the Netherlands happy micromanaging while pillaging and reconnecting saltpeter.

a. Yes. It's got the same defense as a musketman already. Why have the AI waste gold on it?

b. Not really. The game looks at the Musketeer, and since the Dutch can't build it, it looks at the next unit in the upgrade path, until it reaches Rifleman. It's not too bad.

[Louis XXIV]

Which is the next buildable unit in the upgrade path, Musketmen or Riflemen?

[Stuie]

Originally posted by JesseSmith Land
• Armies –Increased combat effectiveness, greater healing capabilities, pillage w/o move cost, +1 movement, ZOC, Blitz, Radar

I think I like armies now.

Naval
• Caravel – Move: 4
• Frigate – Move: 5, Bombard: (3/1/2)
• Privateer – Move: 5, Enslavement: Privateer
• Ironclads – 5(6)/6/3, Upgrades to Destroyer
• Transport – Move: 6, Defense: 2, Capacity: 6
• Destroyer – Move: 8, Air Defense: 1, Detect Invisible
• Battleship – Move: 5, Air Defense: 2
• AEGIS Cruiser – Move: 7, Air Defense: 3, Detect Invisible, Radar
• Carrier – Move: 7, Air Defense: 1
• Nuclear Submarines – Stealth Attack, Detect Invisible
• Submarines – Stealth Attack, Detect Invisible

All still too slow for huge maps.... Oh, well; that's what the editor is there for, right?

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Chieftess
a. Yes. It's got the same defense as a musketman already. Why have the AI waste gold on it?

Thanks, but that's not the question. The question is whether it makes sense to let the Dutch UU upgrade to the French UU, or it's only a typo. My bet is that it's the latter.

b. Not really. The game looks at the Musketeer, and since the Dutch can't build it, it looks at the next unit in the upgrade path, until it reaches Rifleman. It's not too bad.

Thanks again, I know how the upgrade mechanism works. There's basically a long upgrade path from spearman up to modern infantry units, and it's difficult to make an exception for the Swiss Mercanary. It is not possible to let it upgrade directly to Riflemen and to skip the musket units for the Dutch, because in this case either no unit could upgrade to the S.M., or muskets would be skipped for all civs. Also, the Dutch would be screwed if they had saltpeter, but no iron. I remember a good solution concept by Warpstorm. Why has it been dropped?

[Arrian]

The shield cost flexibility is a BIG change. That's great.

Jags now at 15? Ouch. I never like them anyway, though, so no biggie.

Gallics now at 40? YIKES

Is the "first strike" like a zero-range bombard shot (ala the "AU" mod?)?

The curragh is 1.1.2, 15 shields, and can carry how many units? 1 or 2? And if you're seafaring, it's actually 1.1.3, eh? So basically you've got 15 shield galleys?

to the +1 hp for WE's.

-Arrian

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Arrian
The curragh is 1.1.2, 15 shields, and can carry how many units? 1 or 2? And if you're seafaring, it's actually 1.1.3, eh? So basically you've got 15 shield galleys?

Zero. It has no transport capacity.

Curragh Naval 15 1.1.2 0 Trans Cap Alphabet

So you have a 15 shield naval scout.

[Jaybe]

Curragh Naval 15 1.1.2 0 Trans Cap Alphabet

Stuie, I interpreted that "0" as zero AA strength, implying transp cap of greater than zero.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

That's a damn shame about the Jaguar Warrior. Maybe it was overpowered... I have a feeling that additional 5 will make the unit just a little too costly...

[Dominae]

The Jaguar Warrior was IMO a fun and balanced unit in the epic (standard) game. In the MP world, however, the Jag consistently produced top finishes, regardless of player skill. Therefore I feel it was a good decision to tone it down a bit.

In SP, the Jag is now more of a scouting Warrior than an offensive tool (although that's still a possibility). This makes the Chasqui look even worse in comparison.


Dominae

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Dominae
Therefore I feel it was a good decision to tone it down a bit.

Maybe you can shed some light on this, Dominae... I've always thought it was odd, in the SP game, with cultural linking on, the Aztecs always started near the Mediterranean powers. As little as this reflects "cultural linking" reality, I still thought it was a good decision: the masses of Jaguars effectively checked, or having to work a lot harder, by the Hoplites and Num. Mercs. and eventually the Legions of Rome.

With the Jaguar costlier - and hence, slightly less effective as a lemming-like tool of war - has the cultural linking been changed? Will these more expensive Jaguars still bash their heads against the doors of Hippo, or will they have more a field day against the new American powers?

[Dominae]

I'm almost certain that no UU design decisions were made with culturally linkage in mind. If I could venture a guess, I would say that a vast majority of players play without this option.


Dominae

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Dominae
I'm almost certain that no UU design decisions were made with culturally linkage in mind. If I could venture a guess, I would say that a vast majority of players play without this option.

Well, I suppose you're right. :sigh:

In any event, theorhetically cultural linking should put the Aztecs up against the Americans, Iroquois, Incas and Mayans before they go up against the Mediterranean powers. That's a relatively good spread; I hope the Aztecs haven't been too greatly castrated.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Dominae
I would say that a vast majority of players play without this option.

yes, definately. I hate knowing that I will be next to the same civs all the time. especially when its carthage, zulu, greece, and rome. blech.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
yes, definately. I hate knowing that I will be next to the same civs all the time. especially when its carthage, zulu, greece, and rome. blech.

But the cultural linking often provides such a nice balance... and it's more historically appealing... I've never understood the desire to remove cultural linking, other than to have every game be "unique" and also perhaps to have either a super-challenge or a freshly-paved road to success (for example of the former, try playing as say, Koreans, surrounded by Zulus, Persians, Carthaginians, etc., and for an example of the latter, try playing as Chinese surrounded by Ottomans, English, etc.)

[player1]

Originally posted by Stuie
All still too slow for huge maps.... Oh, well; that's what the editor is there for, right?

Actually, that's too fast for Small and Tiny maps.

[OPD]

15 sheilds for a JW???

What if you play accel prod, build Leo's then upgrade a JW to a swordsman, how can you pay 7.5 gold?

Originally posted by JesseSmith
• Conquistadors – Requires Astronomy instead of Navigation

perhaps RP had something to do with this.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by player1
Actually, that's too fast for Small and Tiny maps.

So ship movement should be dynamic based on what size map you are playing.

I never play anything smaller than 140x140, so I'll just mod them to move faster.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by OPD
15 sheilds for a JW???

What if you play accel prod, build Leo's then upgrade a JW to a swordsman, how can you pay 7.5 gold?

You can't, since Invention requires Feudalism and the Swordsman becomes obsolete . You can, however, upgrade him to a MedInf for mere 12.5 gold.

[Terser]

I haven't been keeping abreast of Conquest related developments as much as I should have, so this question may have been asked and answered before:

Will TOW infantry have some sort of anti-tank attack/defense bonus against armored units? Or will they basically just be infantry with an unusually high defense and a different strat resource requirement than tanks and mech infantry?

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


You can't, since Invention requires Feudalism and the Swordsman becomes obsolete . You can, however, upgrade him to a MedInf for mere 12.5 gold.

Perhaps you can only upgrade in pairs?

[G'Kar]

Originally posted by Terser
Will TOW infantry have some sort of anti-tank attack/defense bonus against armored units? Or will they basically just be infantry with an unusually high defense and a different strat resource requirement than tanks and mech infantry?

AIUI (as I understant it) the TOW infantry is a powerful, no resource needed defender.

There are still no unit v unit specialized combat bonuses; and at this point in game development it would be a bad thing to add.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by OPD

perhaps RP had something to do with this.

That's what they were putting their effort into doing!

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Arrian
Jags now at 15? Ouch. I never like them anyway, though, so no biggie.

i guess that's to make the other 1,1,2 UU (Inca's Chasqui Scout Cost: 20) relatively speaking more less weak. but i still don't like ultra-early GAs

Gallics now at 40? YIKES

oh my oh my...
70 may have been a bit much... but 40????
makes it the best swordsman-replacement imho (speed over strength)

Is the "first strike" like a zero-range bombard shot (ala the "AU" mod?)?

that's what it looks like!

The curragh is 1.1.2, 15 shields, and can carry how many units? 1 or 2? And if you're seafaring, it's actually 1.1.3, eh? So basically you've got 15 shield galleys?

if you look a the source code of the first page, you can clearly see, that the '0' belongs to the "Trans Cap"... maybe a good idea...

general stuff:

i think the ancient cavalry is a lot more powerful that the crusader foot units. the latter are stronger, ok, but very slow... i still prefer regular knights. and getting one every 5 turns doesn't give you enough offensive power, so you'll have to get those cav's anyway.

what traits have the wonders got? there were too few expansionist wonders until now. i hope at least the knights templar is expansionist

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Sorry to get OT here... this is a great thread for the units, but can someone point me (and others) in the direction of a thread discussing everything else? New traits, new mandatory/optional techs in the epic game, new rules (I know the minimum time is now 50 turns - wowza!), etc.?

I/we would be most grateful. I think I speak for all of us who can't buy/acquire Conquests today, or soon.