is it worth a war?

[Ision]

America/Monarch Level/Large/Continents/10 AIs left/mid-Middle Ages/

Here's the situation:

I am 2nd on the histograph.

At this time there is nearly total tech parity between all Civs (including mine). I researched and own 'the Pyramids and Sistine', I conquered 'Lighthouse and Colossus' from the Vikings. There is still an undiscovered continent with 1 Civ on it.

I already had my 'Golden Age' via wonders.

I am in 'Republic' form of Government.

I have the largest land mass and city total (total conquest of the Vikings) , but lag behind 2 civs in culture.

I have iron and horses.

I have access to only 2 luxury sources (gems and dyes).

My military is superior to all but 1 Civ (Arabia). I have a large number of Knights and Pikemen, a small number of catapults, and 5 galleys (my navy sucks).

Arabia is 1st on the histograph and is about to wipe out India on the other continent.

Arabia has 3 different luxury sources (wines, incense, & silks) in there empire, all near the coast! Arabia has a near monopoly (all but 1 source) of the Iron on their continent!

My God Damm 'Forbidden Palace' is 75 turns away!!

There are 3 other Civs on my Continent, only one of which poses any real threat to me (China). I am Gracious with the other 2 of them, China is still 'Furious' at me for allying with Eygpt during an early Ancient age war.

SO, my intention is to build a huge fleet, fill them with Cavalry, Musketmen, and Settlers and Invade Arabia in the late Middle Ages/Early Industrial Age. I intend to ally with the 2 weakest Civs on the other Continent (after India is destroyed there will be 5 left) against Arabia. Simultaneously, I intend to provoke a war on my own continent with China - and let Eygpt and Spain do the dirty work, while I stay on mobile defense.

My goal is not conquest or domination - but balance of power. My ultimate goal is space race/ culture/ or diplomatic victory. Is it worth a war with Arabia for the sake of 2 or 3 more luxerys, considering I have 2 of my own and Sistine? I could just launch a small attack on Arabia and ally with all 4 of the other Civs on their continent? Is my intention to fight a concurrent war with China a mistake (a war on 2 fronts)? Or is it fine considering the number of allys I intend to have?

Is the war worth it?.....................

Please help and Thanks,

Ision

[Ision]

By the way............I have already pre-ordered C3C

so, this is the last of my PTW games........... I want to make the most of it.........


Ision

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Ision
Is it worth a war with Arabia for the sake of 2 or 3 more luxerys, considering I have 2 of my own and Sistine? I could just launch a small attack on Arabia and ally with all 4 of the other Civs on their continent?

Yes. Look if you can get something useful out of the land. If not, just seizing a couple of luxury colonies (I mean cities) will do. They could also serve as military and naval bases and as beachhead for later conquest.

Is my intention to fight a concurrent war with China a mistake (a war on 2 fronts)? Or is it fine considering the number of allys I intend to have?

One of my principles is "one at a time", but if you think you're strong enough, go ahead. But be aware, that waging 2-front wars drastically increases the chance of being ganged up against, so watch out diplomatically, or else my other principle "strike hard and fast, achieve your goals and then get the hell out" may be violated due to a protracted war in an alliance hell.

[dexters]

Well, you obviously played a warmonger early game. So a conquest now is fine. You've got idle forces sitting at home doing nothing but eating your money. But Arabia? A sea away? Pre Airports and Transports?

You're setting yourself up to be crushed by the Arabs. I had 4 transports full of mixed Infantry / Knights/ Cavalry crushed by Roman Cavalry and musketman defended cities in one of my earlier games. And this was trying to invade 10th place Rome in a tiny rugged island, who happened to have to monopoly on furs and wouldn't trade it to me for a reasonable price. For your Arab invasion to even have a chance of working, you need a lot of ships and fodder just to get that crucial beach head. Keeping it against the locally based Arab army which can arrive at your front much faster than you can resupply your troops (pre airports and fast moving transports/navigation) is going to be a challege.

Personally, I'd steer clear, unless you have a production advantage so overwhelming you think you can build your fleet and resupply your forces at the front, which I am sure will be whittled down very quickly, especially if it's tech parity, and it's not like your musketman are being attacked by horseman. The Arabs will probably have plenty of cheap Ansar Warriors running around too, which could explain why they are kicking India and is #1.

You might as well devote your resources building a land based army to take out one of the two AI CIVs on your continent. They have have nothing near a monopoly of a resource, but they must have something, one source of a luxury, and that's really all you need since you bably badly need those lux going into industrial. Trust me. And this is Monarch, not chieftain.

I have to ask you though what value is your conquest of the Vikings when after all that trouble you've only got 2 luxuries. Was it for a vital resources? just for the wonders? Bad starts aside, I've usually never had much trouble securing at least 3 luxuries and a lot of times, I get four right off the bat. You need to Rex hard in the early game and grab those one source luxuries as soon as you can. You might have only one, but it's better than none.

Just an advice. You can lay low for now vis-a-vis the Arabs, consolidate your power in your home continent and deal with them later. But After like 4 games on Continents, and given the AI BEING so pathetic with the intercontinental invasions, those kinds of games just aren't fun anymore. Maybe it'll change with C3c.


------------------------
On a personal note

In my current Monarch game, I didn't pull even military wise with the Top 3 civs until Replaceple parts and the mass upgrades I did pushed me ahead and then I did my machivallian plotting to rip the planet apart.

Most of the time, I just stayed in the middle of the pack, out of trouble, and tagged along the big boys in their adventures and grabbed myself new luxuries and resources. You might be interested in This Thread To get a gist of how I play.

I personally think this method of play is ideal in the Monarch/Emperor level where the AI bonuses aren't so overpowering as to require ass kissing and extremely shrewd trading to win (in diety). Although I have yet to test this in Diety. Just a note, the strat is not complete, but you can probably get some good ideas for your next game, or even your current one.

[Ision]

dexters,

My starting position was average and I popped an early free city. Unwisely, I used that city for an early attempt at Pyramids. While it did give me the wonder, it slowed my rex. Early on I realized that I had no Horses or Iron in my span of control, or the areas I would be rexing into.

In mid-ancient, my neighbor Eygpt was invaded by China. The Chinese had a city near my border that I wanted (horses), so I allied with Eygpt. The war did not last long, and I got my city. Eygpt however got mauled. Bad relations with China ever since.

I had 2 luxery sources within my empire, but no Iron in sight. The Vikings had 2 iron sources, and best of all a smaller less devolped Civ. I invaded with a horde of horsemen.

Strangly enough, I do not like early war-mongering. My style is Builder early/semi-warmonger later. My starting intention was culture win. This game goes to show that there is validity to that cliche,"the best laid plans...."

Which is why I love this game. This particular game I am playing is one of the better ones. I had a string of easy victories lately. Games decided the moment I hit Chivalry. Not this game though. There is a weird part of me that wants to leave Arabia in peace for awhile. Crush my neighbors and wait. It's just to see if I can create a mega-confrontation late game! These are so rare - but, incredibly fun. On the other hand, that is not the intelligent thing to do. Reason says I should cause a dog pile on Arabia.

I believe that the Arabs are a huge power militarily. I also believe that India is doomed. Weak Eygpt, average Spain, and 3rd place China are on my continent. This also leads me to believe that with China #3 and myself #2 on the same continent - the Arabs are going to keep warmongering and winning over there. Nevertheless, even with India's demise, there will still be 4 other Civs over there.

You may be right about invasion danger, but I would only launch it after getting 2 Civs over there to declare war on the Arabs. Wait 2 turns (let their forces move to meet my alllies military) and then land. There are 2 luxery sources 7 hexes apart that would make a good target.

Thanks for your input. Greatly appreciated.

[dexters]

If you're intent on Attacking Arabia for "balance of power" then you're my kind of Machivellian geo-political player.

Note that Getting 2 civs on the other continent to declare war may also speed up Arab conquest while you struggle to land your forces, the Arabs may be sweeping in the heartland of the continent and wiping them out, consolidating their holdings and turning around to get you just as you get into the rythm of landing your troops.


I actually think its better to look away from the coasts and see which cities you can take by attacking from the otherside. A suggestion is for you to sign ROPS WITH the weaker civs and start ferrying troops to their territory, this will cut down on the logistics of the first strike, you can then keep fewer ships to ferry subseqent reinforcements. Given this will b ea pre-RR war, try to find the civ with a better developed road nextwork that also (if possible) borders strategic cities you want to take.
You can then launch a secondary attack form the sea to carve out a path linking your in-land holdings to the sea. But assuming there are 5 other civs over there, you might be able to have access to a friendly habour and have luxuries start shipping out without having to even conquer a coastal town.

You can still have the 2 other civs you are currently considering declare war, just find a 3rd neutral Civ to strike your ROP DEAL with so your forces have somewhere to retreat to if they are damaged or vulnerable (need to get a leader out for example) and you need to ferry them someplace safe to heal. Are there any islands nearby you can use as a secondary staging area for possible troops to heal? assuming there are no "open" areas in the Arabian continent for your troops to fortify and heal.

I'd have to see the map and city placements to see how plausible this is, but on paper, I think ROP with Arabia's neighbour and attack though land may be better for you. You get first strike opportunities too, instead of wasting a turn landing on a hill and having stacks of arab units attack you.



GG. post a save?

[Ision]

Dexters,

Interesting response. The 2 pronged invasion (land & sea) sound interesting. Reminds me of the Anzio bridgehead created in Italy in order to facilitate the main push through central italy by land.

once again thanks for your post.

[dexters]

I made some last minute additions to the post to clarify a few things i had in mind.

I like your game by the sound of it.

Good luck.

[grappleman]

Ision, at the minimum you should knock off the chinese. that way you have a larger territory and will move up on the histograph. Perhaps then you think about taking on the arabs. But i personally would hit the chinese now. Good luck!

[spy14]

Sounds good. Post the save! People will make better judgements of your best way forward if they have first hand access.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Ision
My God Damm 'Forbidden Palace' is 75 turns away!!

IMO, there's no need to build a FP at 2 shields per turn. Get the city to at least size 6 (add workers if needed), mine the surrounding tiles, rush-buy a courthouse, rush-buy temple and/or cathedral to get into 'we love the king'-day. This should give you about 5-8 shields per turn after corruption, at least if the city isn't at the other end of your continent.

[Turrosh Mak]

Always "settle the hash" of those on your own continent first. You can't rely on the AI to do anything useful in a war.

The reasoning is pretty simple. You will not have divided attention. What if China gets lucky while your forces are on the ocean?

Are you able to trade for those luxuries from Arabia? If you can, surely war can wait.

[Jamski]

Go to war on your own continent first. You can't trust the AI not to invade while you're abroad. Also you *might* get a leader to hurry the FP.

-Jam

[Solomwi]

If China poses a threat, China should be the target of first opportunity, imo. Of course, it's tough to say that absolutely without a look at your game. Sounds good so far, and fun, too. I tend to put off my overseas conquests until Marines are available, but I like dexter's suggestion of getting ROPs and spending several turns building up forces on that continent before declaring war. If you've got enough built up, consider using a leader to rush your FP in Mecca, or some other suitable Arab city, effectively giving you an empire on each continent.

[PrinceBimz]

Ision,

Judging from your initial post, you may be able to wait it out. On the other hand, if Arabia is becoming bigger and more powerful by wiping out India, thats a red flag. So depending on how large India is and if Arabia has conquered them should be part of your decision. If I were you I would not mess with them right now.

Going to war with China I don't feel is a good idea considering they are the strongest on your land. If things go wrong you can end up in a world of mess. Unless you are very sure you can beat them, I would not attack them. Check your military advisor for several turns to help you decide. Your bad relations with China could end up getting ugly anyway unless you improve it.

I would focus on a weaker nation on your continent. Make demands to them, threaten them, basically bully them. If you can't get them to give up anything, plan an attack. Check the Foreign advisor to make sure they don't have any allies or that could be trouble. If they don't start your attack plans.

If it all works out and you are able to grab alot more land and cities, you can start to eye out Arabia again. In modern ages after you have flight, then you can start war preparations. Buildup a fleet of a few carriers and warships. Then build transports loaded with troops, tanks and cannons. Once you have your fleet assembled head for their coastline. Don't land any troops until you can bombard and destroy any roads or rails that can send in reinforcments. Hit their larger cities, key improvements and any military units first with bombers, artillery and naval gunfire. Once it is all cleared land the troops.

Good luck!

[Romanus]

Jamski.....my sympathies to your cat...ouch

[Aqualung71]

I have to say I agree wholeheartedly with Dexter's first reply to this thread.

In my experience, the tried and tested method of pursuing inter-continental wars with the leading Civs involves packing at least 6 or 7 transports with MA/MI/RI (or at least Tanks/Infantry/Artillery) plus a couple of settlers and workers, and then watching half of them being slaughtered the minute they land and hoping the rest will survive long enough to set up a town and rush the vital airport (which usually allows you one turn of air lifting before the AI bombers pound it back into the ground).

Frankly, I can't see any hope in hell of you landing enough cavalry/knights and musketmen/pikemen (how long will it take to build that fleet?) fast enough to even make a dent in the leading Civ's defenses, let alone establish a beach-head that will survive! The Arabs will probably have Cavalry by the time you arrive, which will be able to cut down your Musketmen....and by late middle-ages the solid Rifleman is not far away and the advent of the Infantry for the Arabs (only a couple more techs away) will seal the fate of your brave but ultimately doomed invaders.

Allying with the weaklings on the continent won't help, as the Arabs will probably crush them easily....that is, if they dare to even cross the border! I also find that invading another Civ's continent is pretty much the worst thing you can ever do to the AI, so he probably won't even talk to you for about 6 or 7 turns and even then he will resort to humiliating extortion (he is, after all, the world leader).....making a short war a little uncertain. And with only 2 luxuries in Republic, you might then find your citizens getting a little agitated.

However, if you're prepared to basically sacrifice your units simply to disrupt the Arabs and change the balance of power more in your favour rather than to establish a permanent presence on their continent, then it may be worthwhile.....at the risk of them coming back to bite you later.

I would concentrate on wiping out the Civs on your own continent, probably starting with China since they're already furious with you and you seem to have a decent sized army. Then bide your time, building up and upgrading your army, making a strike against the Arabs with Tanks and Infantry while surging towards Flight to get those airports started. Then you've got him and the rest of the game will be boring!

Also, persecuting China will probably be better for achieving your objective of a Space Race/Cultural/Diplomatic victory. You will be able to expand on your own continent, closer to your capital/FP and hence lower corruption --> more production/money/science. Not forgetting the difficulty in winning diplomatically if you invade the world leader! Yes, take out China (completely) and be best buddies with everyone else....and trade luxuries with Arabia.

As an aside, if you're ranked 2nd on the histograph in the mid-middle ages, I would suggest it's time to move up a level

Cheers!