What to do next ?

[Prometeus]

It's about Ch'in kingdom ( pin-yin transliteration mode Qin ) under Yin Zheng/Yen Cheng rule ( Shih Huang Di, The First Emperor ). In a few words, the last twenty years of Chan Kuo/Chung Kuo period or, in english, "The Warring States" period. Sorry for the "chinese language mess", but all of my sources used old italian transliteration mode, not pin-yin one, so it's pretty difficult for me.

PS I think I'll get rid of a lot of barbarian settlements, since Yueh was "estinguished" by Ch'in/Qin in 334 B.C. ( using turkish mercenaries in his army... ), and Chao/Zhao "estinguished" the Chung-Shan/Zhongshan kingdom shortly after. And with a lot of empty slots...

[VietMinh]

You still using the same map as the italian version it?
If so why would you need Viet Namese history?

[Prometeus]

A brief answer:

1) No,I think I'll use a much larger map.

2) Into this map, Au Lac is included; only Northern Yueh settlements are going to be wiped out. Au Lac settlements are planned to be kinda "barbarian super-fortress".

Why Vietnamese history ? Because I like to research accurately before doing/restyling a scenario, and Viet Namese tribes were a thorn in the side for the whole Ch'u kingdom, especially around Chang-sha. And a early Viet Nam history scenario idea tempted me a lot...
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited November 19, 2000).]

[VietMinh]

YES, finally recgonition!

Actually they were more than a thorn; There is old confusion in the history books; some books call the Viet Namese leader King while others empereur. Why both titles?

The story is that when the charismatic King-Monk Ly came to power he decided to call himself empereur, this was a slight to the Chinese Empire for only a chinese may be son of the heavens so the imperatrice of China sent a letter to the new empereur; Why should waste so many lives on a title?
The king replied that he would be known as King in the world but empereur in Viet Nam.

The chinese didn't want to conquer Viet Nam for it would be too much trouble only when the Warring states were united and strong did they conquer us and when they did they had to keep Viet Namese administrators but when they tried to change that Viet Nam became independant. SO i'd guess we were a pretty powerful kingdom .

[Prometeus]

That's my idea about Yueh units . First of all, since the Warring States were seven, all of Yueh units are going to be placed under Barbarian AI.
Then, I'll create three lines of unmovable units ( the villages ), each one with a different look to depict the different "assimilation" grade to chinese civilization showed in archaeological evidences:

1) a kinda chinese hut ( for northern Yueh tribes );
2) a Miao-style hut with a sort of Dayak palace ( for middle Yueh tribes in Xijiang river's valley );
3) a Co-loa style settlement for Au Lac and Nan Yueh/Nam Viet states;
4) a kinda partisan/alpine unit with full movement points, equipped with bow and/or "ge" axe ( same kind found at Lamma Island, near Hong Kong ), to perform Yueh raider groups;
5) and a few elephants, of course...

What do you think about this idea? Do you think it's a stupid idea to place them in my Chan Kuo restyling scenario ?
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited November 20, 2000).]

[VietMinh]

Those are pretty good ideas but i can only play the viet namese as barbarians but then again i'll just hack the game to play them .

Oh the lephants are the elite of the elite only the best and elite genrals and leaders could ride them so you should put them pretty strong. Will you have leaders like in the italian version?

[Prometeus]

quote: Originally posted by VietMinh on 11-20-2000 08:46 PM Those are pretty good ideas but i can only play the viet namese as barbarians but then again i'll just hack the game to play them .

1) Maybe no... Listen: since Han was the first kingdom to be assimilated by Ch'in/Qin in 230 B.C., and starting in 230 B.C. spring, I'm going to assign to Ch'in/Qin all Han cities, by creating a "Han Kingdom" unmovable unit ( barbarian, of course ). This way, by merging together Au Lac, Nan-Hai/Nam Viet and Min Yueh states, you'll never forced to hack the game... this way, instead of a ruined Han kingdom, I'll create a powerful southern kingdom, increasing this way the scenario challenge. Check out BeBro link: i found here a model of a Chinese elephant; do you think this will work for Yueh elephants also?

Yes, I'm going to put into the scen individual units. Sorry, Chao Te/Trieu Da is scheduled for Ch'in/Qin forces. Maybe the mighty Yueh crossbowman... Suggestions?

Ps Ch'u kingdom was founded by Mang tribes, and lately assimilated by Chou dinasty; and Ch'i state in nowaday Shantung/Shandong was founded by I tribes ( and suffered the same fate as Ch'u ). Not to be mentioned of Ch'in... Turks & Tibetans a go-go !!! Where are chinese in this scenario ?

[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited November 21, 2000).]

[VietMinh]

quote: Originally posted by Prometeus on 11-21-2000 07:28 AM 1) Maybe no... Listen: since Han was the first kingdom to be assimilated by Ch'in/Qin in 230 B.C., and starting in 230 B.C. spring, I'm going to assign to Ch'in/Qin all Han cities, by creating a "Han Kingdom" unmovable unit ( barbarian, of course ). This way, by merging together Au Lac, Nan-Hai/Nam Viet and Min Yueh states, you'll never forced to hack the game... this way, instead of a ruined Han kingdom, I'll create a powerful southern kingdom, increasing this way the scenario challenge. Check out BeBro link: i found here a model of a Chinese elephant; do you think this will work for Yueh elephants also? Yes, I'm going to put into the scen individual units. Sorry, Chao Te/Trieu Da is scheduled for Ch'in/Qin forces. Maybe the mighty Yueh crossbowman... Suggestions? Ps Ch'u kingdom was founded by Mang tribes, and lately assimilated by Chou dinasty; and Ch'i state in nowaday Shantung/Shandong was founded by I tribes ( and suffered the same fate as Ch'u ). Not to be mentioned of Ch'in... Turks & Tibetans a go-go !!! Where are chinese in this scenario ? [This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited November 21, 2000).]

1)A little bit historical inaccuraty but it's a great solution for gameplay. I didn't ffind the pic yet but give a day.If you could send me the pic it would be ever better .
2)Well the Yeuh crossbowman was mighty to an extend... It was mighty because it had better tech not because they were specialised in it, the bow could shoot 2 arrows at once i believe. Suggestions; the partisans units of Au Lac and Nam Viet; they were native mountain tribes recruited in the army, let's just say they were devastating in hit and run missions. Also there were royal guards of the AU Lac; said to be dragons themselves [not true of course, they were just taller than the usual asian and with shiny equipement].
3)Well the Chinese were a mix of everything and is still today except in the 18th century an population boom got off and never stopped so thats why most chinese are "han" today even though they probably have some turkish,tibetan or other minoraties blood in them.

[Prometeus]

Two arrows at time? Oh, my... Poor chinese!!! And it was made of bamboo, not like chinese models, made of composite wood...
BTW the mighty crossbowman i was referring to was the first ( and last, for what i know ) king of Au Lac; according to a legend, he owned a magic crossbow that never missed an hit; in order to reach victory, Chao Te stoled this artifact to finally defeated him.

PS Elitè soldiers seemed to be a common component near southern "chinese" kingdoms' armies, not only in Au Lac and Nam Viet: also in Ch'u, Wu, Northern Yueh ( Chou feudal territories ) and in Thai kingdoms such as Ye Lang and Tien ( Tien royal soldiers were called by Chinese historicians "white dresses" ).

A "short scenario's timescale"

386 - Ch'i kingdom changes families' dinasty
376 - Chin schism into Chao, Han and Wei° kingdoms ( or "three Chin" )
375 - Ch'eng estinguished by Han
??? - Ch'u preminence; thanks to Wu Chi, Ch'u defeats Yueh, Ch'in and the "three Chin"
??? - Wu Chi is murdered
368 - Ch'i defeats Wei°, thanks to Sun Pin
353 - Ch'i defeats Wei° while's attacking Chao
341 - Ch'i defeats Wei° while's attacking Han
335 - I-yang
334 - Yueh estinguished by Ch'in
333 - Ch'in defeats all of the other chinese kingdoms in a great battle
318 - Ch'in defeats again Chao, Ch'u, Yen, Han and Wei°
317? - Ch'u is defeated again by Ch'in: 80000 Ch'u warriors are executed by Ch'in
316 - Shu and Pa conquered by Ch'in
299 - King Huai of Ch'u emprisoned by Ch'in
289 - Sung estinguished by Ch'i
280? - A great Ch'u poet and counsellor commits suicide to protest against political alliance between Ch'u and Ch'in
275 - Ch'in defeats Wei°
262 - Han is defeated by Ch'in
260 - Ch'ang P'ing: Chao defeated by Ch'in; 400000 Chao warriors are executed by Ch'in
256 - Chou dinasty estinguished by Ch'in
250? - Motun estabilished Hsiung-Nu league
249 - Lu estinguished by Ch'u
246 - Yin Cheng is now king of Ch'in
241 - Wei conquered by Wei° ( Wei sacrifices interrupted by Ch'in in 225 )
230 - Han estinguished * scen starts here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
228 - Chao estinguished
227 - Tan, prince of Yen, tried to assassinate Yin Cheng, king of Ch'in. Discovered, he's executed by Yen citizens in order to save kingdom.
225 - Wei° estinguished
223 - Ch'u estinguished
222 - Yen estinguished
221 - Ch'i estinguished
211/210 - first Nan-hai/Nam Viet Chinese conquest
210 - death of Yin cheng


[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited November 25, 2000).]

[VietMinh]

An very old legend; but the historical remains shows that it shot 2 arrows at a time at least that's what i learned in school

Yeah elite soldiers most of the time were bred to fight as the royal guards so they were pretty impressive...

So it ends all in 210?

[Prometeus]

Yes, but I'll use a monthly timescale. So, 20*12=240 turns...