is it worth a war? part II

Ision · November 5, 2003, 06:27

Forum moderators, please do not move the 2 post that will follow to the 'stories section'. I began all of this as a general question, but it has become a running story. The people that replied to my intial post did so in this forum "General", and may not know that I did this follow up.

Please excuse me, and I will ensure not to do this again in the future.

Respectfully, Ision

Ision · November 5, 2003, 06:27

Firstly, let me thank all of you (especially 'dexters') for your responses and suggestions. Unfortunately I was unable to read the last few posts until well after I started playing again. Let me just state that I have been playing for a long time, always the AU MOD, and always at monarch (I give the AIs even more advantages in my tweaks to the AU MOD). I have not lost a game in quite some time (about 9 or 10 games a go).

This is my last PTW game, and I think God has granted me with the most special CIV game I have ever played as a parting gift. For the first time ever, I have seen an AI CIV on another continent with 4 other CIVs become hyper-dominant before any CIV has reached Metallurgy or Physics.

Here’s what I did:

1. I Built up 24 Caravels and loaded them with Knights, Musketmen, and 2 settlers. The target was 2 luxury sources 7 hexes apart in Arabia across the sea. The strategy was to ally with 2 other CIVs over there, land 2/3rds of the force with a 3rd non-allied ROP CIV and invade by sea in between the 2-luxery sources. The goal – rapid attack overland with a holding action by the sea borne bridgehead.
2. In the mean time India was vanquished by Arabia. There were now 3 Civs left on that Continent that combined are about 50% of the total land mass. Arabia has now pulled ahead of me in total land mass. My Continent still had 3 civs left besides my own. I have about 40% of the total land mass on my continent. Furious China about 30%, Gracious Egypt 20%, Polite Spain 10%. Histograph reads; 1. Arabia, 2. America (me), 3.China, 4. England, 5. Persia, 6. Eygpt……….
3. I built a small mobile force and lots of catapults to defend my borders with China and give me a GL to hurry that FP. Everything was in motion for war with China and Arabia. It would be followed by alliances with 2 CIVs on each continent. I would take my 2-luxury sources, sit back and grow infrastructure while #1 and #3 each squared off against 2 Civs at once. Pour money to my allies, help a tiny bit militarily, watch Arabia shrink, and establish my total dominance by stealth. Diplo/Culture/space race Win - here I come! Genius of a plan I thought, and smiled.

Ision · November 5, 2003, 06:28

My fleet sailed off and when they were within 2 turns of Arabia I made my moves. These ‘moves’, set off a series of events that has provided me with the best CIV game I have ever played.

Mistake 1 – I declared war on Arabia first, before I did so with China on my own continent! Never, ever do that folks!!! Here’s what happened. After, my DOW, I applied with England and Persia for alliances. England agreed, but Persia declined!! 1200 gold and 2 techs offered – still no! So I went to my ROP, buddy on that continent (Japan), no dice again – hmmm. Okay, I thought a minor set back. England is second strongest on that continent, and with my financial help and a little invasion help they will prevail. I realize now why Persia and Japan said no – they were scared to death, and I should have been as well!

Mistake 2. I then declared war on China. I sought out Spain and Egypt. Egypt agreed – Spain said NO! I tried an ROP with Spain – they said NO! The fish was in the pan now!

The events unfold: The next turn little Spain joins with China and declares war on America (me)! I spend some more money, and get Egypt to declare war on Spain. My fleet sails within 1 turn of Arabia. The other fleet lands the forces in neutral Japan. At this point I casually take a look at the map and notice something, - something foreboding. In the single turn that England and Arabia have been at war – 3 Orange (English) cities have disappeared from the map! Back at home a small Spanish force enters my land, and is quickly dispatched – viola – I have a GL! Okay I pulled at least 1 objective (the FP is built). I still have faith. No sign of Chinese Riders in sight.

What occurred over the next 5 to 6 turns was unreal! I have played for years, but have never engaged in a major Middle Ages naval battle of any consequence or large size. I have never seen an AI attack a large naval force of superior strength and tech with any real numbers. ……..Until…..today……..14 Arab galleys attacked my smaller secondary invasion force. They were all destroyed, but took a 3rd of my force, and with them a 3rd of the transported Units and 1 settler. Looked like the best-case scenario would yield 1 Arab luxury, not 2. My land forces in neutral Japan began the land invasion towards the bridgehead by destroying the closest city to that bridgehead. It was easy. ….. Still, 14 galleys in mid-Middle ages?……. That seemed like a lot to me – unusually large for the map settings and Civ numbers I use (large/12 civs/cont). I wondered what the size of their army was? Back on the home front things were fine. Spain and China sent the usual trickle at a time attack; the catapults and Knights did their work. A slaughter. Egypt gained ground on China. I took a Spanish City.

For 2 turns things ebbed and flowed like this. I made my city on top of Arabia’s spices, and destroyed another Arab city near mine. Not a single Ansar Warrior in sight! Another great leader at Spain’s expense. Another Spanish City taken. Egypt and China in stalemate. All was quiet on the western front. Another glance of the map to the east startled me! England’s orange color was slowly disappearing from the map. The next turn I had my first sighting of an Ansar Warrior. Did I say Ansar Warrior?, -- actually it was more like an endless tidal wave as far as the eye could see! Wave after wave hit my walled city with its 12 defenders. The City held, but had 4 defenders left. I brought in the Knights and fortified the city back up to 19 units. The next turn another wave, after wave, after wave attacked. The City held. There were 2 Knights and 1 Musketman left. No relief was in sight. All my home units were engaged with China and Spain. The next turn the City fell, and I watched the last of the Orange disappear from that Continent. One thought hit me at the end of that turn – oh ****! As soon as the orange disappeared, Arabia declared war on Japan! God Damn, they didn’t even wait a few turns! Second thought hit me, ..oh **** again! I begged Persia to join against Arabia – they refuse. I have the overwhelming feeling that Japan will be swallowed in 3 or 4 turns. They are doomed and I can do nothing to help them.

There it stands at this point. I am researching Military Tradition. I have decided to destroy Spain completely, and then destroy China as well. I have completely dropped any pretense at being a builder in this one. The sheer size of that Arab Army & Navy has me wondering. I will pour money into Japan, and later probably Persia. I will probably leave Egypt as a gracious ally. I have the tech lead by 1 tech. The Arabs have Sun Tzu, Gardens, Great Wall, Leonardo’s, and Copernicus – all gained by conquest. I have Pyramids, Colossus, Lighthouse, Sistine, and JS Bach’s. China and Persia have the rest of the wonders. I am in a race with Arabia and Persia for ‘Smiths’. After Military Tradition, I will be 2 techs from Industrial age. War Weariness is slight so far (luxury slider at 20%), but I foresee that I may be forced to leave Republic if this war goes on much longer.

I have now been at war for 23 turns.

Okay guys…….. there it stands.

dexters · November 5, 2003, 07:25

I think you were looking for a fun parting shot with PTW and got it. The stuff I predicted in your original thread seen to have come true.

-The ansar warrior numbers.
-Recruiting the ally in the other continent only helping Arabia to speed up its consolidation in that continent

Did the land invasion from Neutral Japan come from my suggestion? It was I think a false illusion of success when your initial invasion worked. The Arabs went for the English. The AI never ceases to amaze me. Cynics will call it pure chance, but I do sense a brilliant stroke of programmed strategy here.

That said, all is not lost. When airports and industrial age come around, you can make short work of the Arabs. Their large Ansar army will become their biggest iability once tanks show up.

Get those cavs and concentrate on China. Make peace with Arabia asap, they probably won't do much damage to you being a sea away and all... unless they have another 14 galleys loaded with ansar warriors heading your way.

dexters · November 5, 2003, 07:30

I feel the last minute ROPs hurt your plans, and if you had signed those deals in anticipation of this eventuality and orchestrated the whole thing much more closely, the situation may be a little different.

Did you check my thread on machiavellian strategy?

Aqualung71 · November 5, 2003, 07:44

Dexters - ditto!

Ision, clearly an exciting and valiant attempt, but probably doomed for failure from the outset under the circumstances.

Wars against neighbours: You can afford to strike before you're really ready, move slowly and steadily, wage a war of attrition, as long as you have the production capacity to feed the front with reinforcements.

Intercontinental wars: Strike fast with overwhelming strength (and then some!), or your invading force will be wiped out before they've even blown their noses! Reinforcements across the sea in the middle ages are a fantasy.

I admire your boldness....and perhaps with a little more strength in numbers and earlier diplomacy it would have been successful. It's amazing how often just a few units more will make the AI lose it's nerve and back off when they really can destroy you with persistence. I think I'll try a medieval continental invasion in my next game - I'm usually conservative and wait till airports. But this sounds like fun - nail biting stuff!

Ision · November 5, 2003, 07:47

Dexters, yes the land invasion was from your idea. It did work on it's own level. The sheer number of Ansar warriors was staggering!. Englands poor defense was a surprise.

Ision

Ision · November 5, 2003, 07:54

Dexters,

also, I have never seen a single AI destroy and dominate a crowded continent, this quickly. I believe it was a 'freak' map. One of those maps that jsut falls for 1 civ perfectly. Arabai has now has 4 of the 5 Irons over there, and virtually all of the horses. I noticed that the Capitol and core cities are surrounded with cattle, wheat, wine, and lots of rivers.

Harovan · November 5, 2003, 08:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Ision
Forum moderators, please do not move the 2 post that will follow to the 'stories section'. I began all of this as a general question, but it has become a running story. The people that replied to my intial post did so in this forum "General", and may not know that I did this follow up.

Please excuse me, and I will ensure not to do this again in the future.

Respectfully, Ision

It would be misplaced in the Stories forum. But it might be appropriate for the Strategy forum.

bongo · November 5, 2003, 10:51

Sounds like a great game

There are one thing I would have done differently though. When you plan to declare war and land an invasion force, declare war as late as possible. That way his fleet will attack your empty caravels heading home rather than your loaded caravan heading to the front.

dexters · November 5, 2003, 17:59

Quote:

As soon as the orange disappeared, Arabia declared war on Japan! God Damn, they didn’t even wait a few turns! Second thought hit me, ..oh **** again! I begged Persia to join against Arabia – they refuse. I have the overwhelming feeling that Japan will be swallowed in 3 or 4 turns. They are doomed and I can do nothing to help them.

Not sure if this was in the original game, or in PTW or implemented in subsequent patches, but I don't recall this happening pre 1.27f patch for PTW. I've also seen the AI end a war, turn around and start another war with what I assume is an ripe target.