Gays are born gay, I'm convinced of it.

Lancer · November 7, 2003, 00:20

The conservative position is that it's a choice gays make, but I don't buy that anymore. In the Philippines I've witnessed gay kids...young, aged 5 or 6, behaving differently from other kids. Dolores said "he's gay". Well, at first I didn't think so, but she told me of a relative who acted gay while growing up. His father used to try to beat it out of the poor kid, to no avail. Sure, I could be wrong, but it will be interesting to see how the kid chooses his future. It may be that some are born gay and for others its a choice...though its hard to imagine someone adopting that choice.

So I think people, and maybe animals, are born gay. My brother's ass is gay.

Discuss.

Nubclear · November 7, 2003, 00:29

I completly agree.

I do know a few homosexuals (PC) who really *dont* want to be (they try to date women, etc but to no avail), but they are. Which pretty much eliminates the "I chose it" theory in my mind

Lancer · November 7, 2003, 00:39

Thing is, I don't believe anyone is abusing the kid, and at that age he's obviously not engaging in sex...he's just gay.

What makes me a bit curious is that if being gay is a sin, and being born gay is a fact, man...that's a tough hand to play.

Maybe a gay can refuse his impulses and go straight, I've heard of it. Change impulses? I couldn't. Become gay? No way. However maybe being gay is less right, or natural, so easier to leave behind. That may be offensive to some, but who knows?

Nubclear · November 7, 2003, 00:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Lancer
Thing is, I don't believe anyone is abusing the kid, and at that age he's obviously not engaging in sex...he's just gay.

What makes me a bit curious is that if being gay is a sin, and being born gay is a fact, man...that's a tough hand to play.

Maybe a gay can refuse his impulses and go straight, I've heard of it. Change impulses? I couldn't. Become gay? No way. However maybe being gay is less right, or natural, so easier to leave behind. That may be offensive to some, but who knows?

Personally I doubt that being homosexual is a sin. I don't think God really cares whom we have sex with as long as we have a pure spiritual connection with them.

St Leo · November 7, 2003, 00:48

/me, being an atheist, rolls his eyes

Berzerker · November 7, 2003, 00:48

Pedophiles and rapists may be born that way, so arguing a behavior cannot be sinful if it's "inborn" is illogical.

No Mindseye, I'm not equating homosexuality with pedophilism or rape.

Tuberski · November 7, 2003, 00:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Lancer
Maybe a gay can refuse his impulses and go straight, I've heard of it. Change impulses? I couldn't. Become gay? No way. However maybe being gay is less right, or natural, so easier to leave behind. That may be offensive to some, but who knows?

Maybe it's societal pressure that makes them go straight. How do you know that, if the situation was reversed and homosexuality was the norm, you wouldn't force yourself to be straight.

I believe the reason we see a lot of priests molesting little boys(the majority of cases), is that they were born gay in a strict upbringing were being gay is a sin. To deny themselves of being gay and being shunned, they become priests instead.

It's not that I think molesters are gay, I simply think that molester priests didn't feel that had the ability to be openly gay and accepted.

ACK!

Ramo · November 7, 2003, 00:53

Errr... 5 or 6? How exactly does a 5 or 6 year old gay kid act?

Nubclear · November 7, 2003, 00:58

The obvious answer would be: Gay

Ramo · November 7, 2003, 01:04

I guess I was asking for that.

Lancer · November 7, 2003, 01:20

CT, there are some bible verses against homosexuality...I heard them once. Not much on pulling verses out of the air though, so I can't tell you what they are. Maybe someone else here, equiped with a memory, has that ability? Gay related verses anyone?

Berzerker, I'm not argueing that, just saying it's a tough hand to be dealt.

Tuberski, I think of it this way. People are normally straight, else how do we get more people? The purpose of sex is to concieve. All the sex drives point to that end except homosexuality. So, it's an aberation, perhaps a birth defect? People have it to varying degrees, but many can overcome it to set themselves right. In this society would only be a help, not a driving force as you suggest.

"I believe the reason we see a lot of priests molesting little boys(the majority of cases), is that they were born gay in a strict upbringing were being gay is a sin. To deny themselves of being gay and being shunned, they become priests instead."

This is good, wish I would have thought of it.

Ramo, CT was joking but he's entirely correct. The kids acts gay. It's wierd. It's not a consious thing, it's his nature. Not like some gay guy acting fruity to be noticed, but just....gay.

The Mad Monk · November 7, 2003, 01:21

Yes -- yes you were.

Ben Kenobi · November 7, 2003, 01:50

Quote:

Gay related verses anyone?

You rang?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:26-7

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. "

Jude 1:7

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. "

Lancer · November 7, 2003, 02:14

Thanks Ben.

Ted Striker · November 7, 2003, 02:17

This thread is homo-gay

No seriously, I agree, MOST gays are born that way, they don't have a choice in what they like. Like I said I got my first stiffy when I was like 3 years old, checking out some hoes with some fine ass legs.

Certainly gays must have a similar experience with their own sex.

Theben · November 7, 2003, 03:04

Quote:

nor drunkards... will inherit the kingdom of God.

So much for Ireland.

Nubclear · November 7, 2003, 03:08

Lancer: Well thats good because I don't believe the bible is the word of god

Solly · November 7, 2003, 04:57

I remember "liking" a girl in my first class at school, when I was either 4 or 5..

mindseye · November 7, 2003, 04:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Berzerker
No Mindseye, I'm not equating homosexuality with pedophilism or rape.

Man, that discussion was about two years ago, wasn't it? You still smarting over it?

Just kidding!

Rufus T. Firefly · November 7, 2003, 05:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

You rang?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:26-7

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. "

Jude 1:7

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. "

See, this is where the question of translation is really, really important. Take the passage Ben quotes from 1 Corinthians. Pretty clear on the whole gay question, right? Except here's teh same passage from the King James Bible:

Quote:

9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And here it is again from the Revised Standard translation:

Quote:

9: Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts,
10: nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

The closest we get to homosexuality seems to be the King James' mention of being "effeminate" (so Liberace's not going to heaven, but Rock Hudson is?). Meanwhile, the Revised Standard instead inveighs against "perverts" (plenty of straight ones of those out there), and King James seems to condemn masturbation -- in which case, we're all in trouble.

Beyond that, note that none of this comes from Christ, but from disciples and, indeed, disciples who never knew him (certainly Paul didn't; I don't think Jude did, but it scarecly matters, since Jude doesn't mention homosexuality).

I respect Ben, but I'd take those citations with a biiiiiiig grain of salt.

Bosh · November 7, 2003, 05:02

Bart: What am I supposed to do here?
Homer: Nothing. Just sit. I'll be back.
(walks away, revealing a giant "Laramie Slims" billboard, featuring a girl in lingerie having a pillow fight with another girl in a skimpy shirt and panties) (time passess...)
Homer: Well, it's been two hours. How do you feel?
Bart: I dunno. I kinda want a cigarette.
Homer: That's a good start. Let's get you a pack. What's your brand?
Bart: Anything slim!
Homer: (grunts) (to himself) Okay, that didn't work.

Bart: Dad why did you bring me to a gay still mill?
Homer: I don't know the whole world gone gay (to workers) you guys suck.
Random Worker: Oh be nice.

Solly · November 7, 2003, 05:27

"but I'd take those citations with a biiiiiiig grain of salt"

Dis · November 7, 2003, 05:28

you are correct.

The conservative position is bullshit. People don't choose to be gay (though there may be a few exceptions- though I can't imagine why).

Some kids are different.

I knew kids when I was real young that wanted to do gay things with me. I had one friend who liked to take baths with me. It was only many many years later did I realize what that was all about.

Rogan Josh · November 7, 2003, 05:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Dissident
I had one friend who liked to take baths with me. It was only many many years later did I realize what that was all about.

er... how old was this 'friend' at the time?

So do you lot think being gay might be genetic? Like a recessive allele? I suppose that would have wiped its self out with evolution though, no?

Or maybe due to conditions in the womb? I think this is more likely - something to do with levels of hormones perhaps?

I disagree that it is a fixed thing though. Maybe there is a genetic predisposition to it, or a womb induced predisposition, but that doesn't mean it is fixed in stone.

The first time I tried beer I hated the stuff, but now I have grown to like it. I used to not be attracted to asian women, but not I think they are really sexy. I think likes and dislikes can change with time and environment, so why not sexual preference too?

I am also wondering to myself what a 4 year old can do to appear gay to an observer. Aren't you just applying a 'camp' stereotype here? You can't even draw any conclusions from later adult preferences/behaviour because if he behaves 'camp'' as a child people may treat him differently, influencing later preferences.

MichaeltheGreat · November 7, 2003, 05:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuberski

How do you know that, if the situation was reversed and homosexuality was the norm, you wouldn't force yourself to be straight.

ACK!

Because the species probably wouldn't be around long enough for Lancer to have that choice, dipwad.

ACK!

Dis · November 7, 2003, 05:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Rogan Josh

er... how old was this 'friend' at the time?

So do you lot think being gay might be genetic? Like a recessive allele? I suppose that would have wiped its self out with evolution though, no?

Or maybe due to conditions in the womb? I think this is more likely - something to do with levels of hormones perhaps?

I disagree that it is a fixed thing though. Maybe there is a genetic predisposition to it, or a womb induced predisposition, but that doesn't mean it is fixed in stone.

The first time I tried beer I hated the stuff, but now I have grown to like it. I used to not be attracted to asian women, but not I think they are really sexy. I think likes and dislikes can change with time and environment, so why not sexual preference too?

I am also wondering to myself what a 4 year old can do to appear gay to an observer. Aren't you just applying a 'camp' stereotype here? You can't even draw any conclusions from later adult preferences/behaviour because if he behaves 'camp'' as a child people may treat him differently, influencing later preferences.

I knew someone would ask that

. Same age as me.

DaShi · November 7, 2003, 06:48

I have a friend who says she can tell the difference between gay Chinese guys and straight Chinese guys. Personally, I don't know how you can do it. Mindseye?

Bosh · November 7, 2003, 07:10

Quote:

Originally posted by DaShi
I have a friend who says she can tell the difference between gay Chinese guys and straight Chinese guys. Personally, I don't know how you can do it. Mindseye?

He doesn't. I remember him posting about getting shown pictures of the wives of people he was hitting on. Must make life difficult. In one of the adult textbooks I teach from there was a chapter on fashion and there was pages with people wearing different outfits. One of them was a gay guy so stereotypical it bordered on offensive, but I don't think I succeaded in explaining to my class why this was the case (nor can they fathom why all foreigners laugh at their hip hop groups' mind-bogglingly gay outfits). The closet is really really deep over here.

mindseye · November 7, 2003, 07:54

Quote:

Originally posted by DaShi
I have a friend who says she can tell the difference between gay Chinese guys and straight Chinese guys. Personally, I don't know how you can do it. Mindseye?

Sometimes I can (both genders), but much less often than in the US. I think the biggest problem (in identifying them) is that people are not corralled into gay/straight pidgeon-holes here, as they are pressured to do back home. That means that there are plenty of more-or-less straight guys who dig chicks and would never seek out gay sex, but are not completely averse to it if the situation arises (cue my entrance

).

Also, since relatively open "gay-ness" is still pretty new here, many self-identified gay guys have few of the external trappings that gay westerners do (behavior, attire, etc). And of course, many are acting straight to avoid social pressures.

With the waters so horribly muddied, I just hit on any guy I think is cute, and then follow it where it goes. This means a high "dud" rate as well as occasional encounters with "straight" guys. All in all I am not complaining.

Quote:

Personally, I don't know how you can do it.

Here's a test for you: how about the female pop singer Han Hong (photo below)? A young lesbian-to-be in one of my classes said that she's ... well, you know.

Da Shi, are you planning on visiting "Hu-town" (Shanghai) any time soon?

Q Classic · November 7, 2003, 08:21

all of asia is supremely repressed.