Mercenaries and Myths

Pekka · November 7, 2003, 19:29

Some myths are there to stay. I like when people give a chance to thought, chance to think about it again without extreme prejudice. Without labeling someone, without judging a person before hearing him out.
The chance is rarely given to mercenaries. But like in all life, there are goods and bads.. there are good mercenaries, and there are bad mercenaries. Somehow the public seems to label them all as extreme baddies and people who have reserved a spot in hell, extra hot.

Here are some myths:

1. Mercenaries kill people for money, and are professional killers

Yes, mercenaries in missions might get to a position where they have to kill people. But so do soldiers. Professional soldiers get paid too. They fight for their country, but kill as well. That's the nature of the business. I prefer the term 'professionals'.

2. Mercenaries go for the highest bidder

Wrong. Mercenaries are individuals. They choose their side like they want to. Someone has ideological preferences, someone likes the money, someone has former family ties to this country, someone just feels like justice is on the other side, someone selects random, what ever. To say they ALL go for highest bidder is an accusation that is ridicolous. To say, they switch sides easy if someone just pays more.. Like I said.. someone likes the money more, someone the ideology. Do you think a merc who is neo-nazi would fight for Jewish contractor if it pays few dollars more? Or vice versa? I don't think so.

3. Mercenaries are criminals, and hide their past

Some might be, some might be not. To say they all are is again laughable accusation. There might be mercs who are criminal, but being merc doesn't equal criminal.

4. Mercenaries do war crimes and butcher civilians

Some might do overkills for sure. But that is definitely NOT professional. Soldiers from all areas commit these things when there is some kind of failure, or someone loses it. Real mercenaries are highly trained. Mercs have a mission, a goal. Who pays whole lots of money to a group that has priority #1 to kill civies? To say they all are like this, is ridicolous.
After all, through out the times mercs have saved people and they are called liberators. To enemy they are pain in the butt.

5. Mercenaries makes wars longer, and that is their goal

War is their business, but they don't make wars longer. What do you think, that there are 10 000 mercenaries in every war? Hah

.. Secondly, they are professionals. NO ONE pays money to losers who can't prove they are pros. Wars end by doing war. Professionals are more effective, thus making the war end SOONER most of the times. THe worst kind of a war is the one that burns in low fire, killing small amounts of people for 20 years, totalling far more higher casualties, destroyed infrastructure, forever lasting hatred, grudge, generation that has not seen peace, but only war etc.

.... and btw, if there is a war somewhere, you can't just decide to be a merc and go Rambo. You have to be accepted, and that means you're most likely 'International', which means volunteers from other countries and they are one group themselves. They usually make less than $1000 (EASILY LESS THAN THIS!!!!) a month. In Bosnia, some claim to recieved the pay of 300 DM a month, plus upkeep. So you are a volunteer. That doesn't make you really a merc now does it? Or if it does, then you still are just volunteered for the other country, and you think you can switch sides when you feel like it? Think twice, you'll most likely be shot for even thinking about it. You know too much. And you become enemy anyway. With this kind of crap money, I think you need to have some ideological and personal reasons why you volunteer for a particular side. There goes the highest bidder thing.

Mercenaries are organized as legal companies around the world, mostly in the US and UK. They are professionals, and companies are 100% legal. They do even humanitarian missions. They do security things. They train personel. They go to a conflict to do a mission that someone has paid them to do, AND that side has to be legal side and not criminal, because then their business gets ILLEGAL. They are under control and under watching eye, so they can't f up badly.
Not after some missions in 80s in Africa they can't. Now, it's legal.

in fact, mercenaries have less reasons to kill civies. They don't have so much passion, because they are not under one flag. They are professionals. They are there to do their job. They don't necessarily have grudges. Killing civilians is BAD business.

If you go sadistic, torture and kill people randomly, others in the group WILL start thinking you're a psycho, right? Do you think you will remain in this group for a long time, thinking that people trust psychos? After all, it's all based on trust. You have to be able to trust the man next to you, and you see this guy flipping and doing war crimes from left to right.. no no.. that guy is gone soon. It's not professional, not good business.

So there. What's your take?

Nubclear · November 7, 2003, 19:32

Where did this come from?

st_swithin · November 7, 2003, 19:40

Is this a commentary on workplace satisfaction? You sound like you work in HR.

Pekka · November 7, 2003, 19:45

Just breaking myths. 'Mercenaries' are called the dogs of war. But they are the ones making the ULTIMATE sacrifices.. If they are caught by the enemy, do you think they will be treated nicely? No.. they don't have geneva convention to back their safety, if that even works for regular soldiers. They most likely will be tortured and killed without honour. They are the most hated people in the enemies eyes. What if they lose a limb? What will they do after that, and how they make a living? Even if they don't commit a single war crime, they still can be under heavy investigations in their home country, and even tried. No one cares if merc dies. There's no one giving you funeral, most likely no one even knows you are dead. No one gives a crap about you. IN fact, everyone hates you. Do they get the credit and glory for job well done? I don't think so. Yet, they give their lives to countries, and missions. They are someones saviours as well. What about medics? There are medics in every group. They don't necessarily have the chance to kill anyone, except heal people up. THis makes them dogs of war too. People you can spit on legally, people you can loath and hate and no one defends them. But in fact, they can be TRUE MEN OF HONOUR. Some might be psychos and sickos, but it hardly makes them all that. It's not professional, and it's not good business.

MarkG · November 7, 2003, 19:47

Quote:

That's the nature of the business. I prefer the term 'professionals'.

i bet they prefer it too

MarkG · November 7, 2003, 19:48

someone has to do a piece on the myths around drug lords... please!

Pekka · November 7, 2003, 19:50

Being a druglord is not legal business. Pharmacy companies excluded. CIA excluded

.

PMCs are LEGAL companies. You'll be missing these if you ever get into conflict.

MarkG · November 7, 2003, 19:52

pmcs?

st_swithin · November 7, 2003, 19:52

Yes, we know nothing of thees Pablo Escobar. Please for us elucidate on thees man.

Pekka · November 7, 2003, 19:55

Private Military Company.

MarkG · November 7, 2003, 20:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Pekka
If they are caught by the enemy, do you think they will be treated nicely?

who cares? it's parts of their business

Quote:

they don't have geneva convention to back their safety, if that even works for regular soldiers. They most likely will be tortured and killed without honour.

that too

Quote:

They are the most hated people in the enemies eyes.

why shouldnt they?

Quote:

What if they lose a limb? What will they do after that, and how they make a living?

are you suggesting some sort of pension system?

Quote:

Even if they don't commit a single war crime, they still can be under heavy investigations in their home country, and even tried.

amazing stuff. imagine that!

Quote:

No one cares if merc dies. There's no one giving you funeral, most likely no one even knows you are dead. No one gives a crap about you.

guess why? cause they are mercenaries!

Quote:

Some might be psychos and sickos, but it hardly makes them all that.

yes, some even play softball when they dont kill people....

Pekka · November 7, 2003, 20:06

Extreme Prejudice.

Theben · November 7, 2003, 20:11

I'd say how non-sequiter, but I'm not sure what came 1st.

In conclusion: Pekka's drunk again.

Pekka · November 7, 2003, 20:15

No I'm not. Most are just blinded by the bad reputation.
For example, I doubt none of you would turn me down and think me as a son of devil if I volunteered FOR YOU.

And if you think they are rotten, because their business is the war business, then surely you then think that most armies and soldiers are exactly that as well. Or is it better to kill for one flag??

Theben · November 7, 2003, 20:36

I do admire your ability to take anything someone says and turn it back towards the main topic, no matter how thin the strands are.
mmm....thin strands....I think I'll make spaghetti tonight.

I know! You can hire yourself out to OTers who need to have their threadjacked ideas re-jacked. You could try: "Topic on a tangent? Scenarios sidelined? Main idea muddled? Try
PEKKA'S ANTI-THREADJACKERS:
A merc army just for you! For a mere 10 post counts (you need to ditch that chieftain title, warlord sounds soo much better for a merc) we'll put your thread back on topic! No thread is too small or unimportant! Crack commandos standing by, waiting for your call!"

Pekka · November 7, 2003, 20:54

Completely missed the point there, Theben

.

I meant, if your country is in trouble, you don't mind if I come along and volunteer for you. I'd like to see someone saying 'go away you evil offspring!'....

Wraith · November 7, 2003, 21:02

Just had to tagline this one.

Wraith
"Sad to say, America no longer engages in the kind of ground wars that made this country great. But that doesn't mean that savage hand to hand combat is out of your reach! Mercanary soldiers go where the money is! You not only kill, but get paid well for doing it! Ooooh, what a racket!"
-- General Buckonroy ("Daria")

Pekka · November 7, 2003, 21:05

I already talked about the money thing. For some it's the money, for some it's not. The money is not very big, and you make more money doing just about anything else.

Theben · November 7, 2003, 21:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Pekka
Completely missed the point there, Theben

.

That's okay. I completely missed the point of this thread.

Pekka · November 7, 2003, 21:18

The point is to discuss about this, and to aknowledge there are myths that won't always apply.

molly bloom · November 7, 2003, 22:26

Gosh Pekka, whatever you’re on I’ll have some....

Another poor misunderstood employee or entrepreneur:

Your friendly neighbourhood H.I.V. + crack whore with an assortment of various children by who knows how many fathers...

Hey, she’s just trying to spread a little happiness, get through the day, and deal with her addiction in her own way. Right? And yes, she’s filling a gap in the market,, because there are people out there who want condomless sex, and other sex workers simply aren’t dealing with that niche. Stuff beatifying Mother Theresa. Let’s hear it for crack ho Cindy !!!

I love the way you somehow assume that because professional soldiers get paid and so do mercenaries, then they must be similar in some way. Something which hadn’t occurred to me...

And we should feel sorry for the dogs of war, because the Geneva Convention doesn’t apply to them. Well, that’s right, and guess what? Mostly they don’t apply the Geneva Convention either- so they can wilfully maim, mutilate, torture, rape, murder and sexually abuse adults and children, and do. Must be awful not having a structured command and a freewheeling sense of morality.

Perhaps we should ask some of those lovely mercenaries in Angola, Mozambique, Zaire, Sierra Leone and Liberia- the ones who routinely chop off children’s limbs, and use under age girls as sex slaves. Because let’s face it, it must be difficult not knowing where your next pay cheque is coming from, and you just have to burn off some of that nervous tension....

Still, they’re the professionals, just trying to a job of work....

GePap · November 7, 2003, 23:43

I have no pity or respect for mercenaries. And they have never been known to be reliable, which is why states with any money prefer to make proffesionals out of citizens to fight their wars. People use private soldiers when they have no legitimacy, or want it done cheap.

MichaeltheGreat · November 8, 2003, 03:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Pekka
No I'm not. Most are just blinded by the bad reputation.
For example, I doubt none of you would turn me down and think me as a son of devil if I volunteered FOR YOU.

Yes I would think that of you, if you were the sort I was looking to hire.

MichaeltheGreat · November 8, 2003, 03:06

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap
I have no pity or respect for mercenaries. And they have never been known to be reliable, which is why states with any money prefer to make proffesionals out of citizens to fight their wars. People use private soldiers when they have no legitimacy, or want it done cheap.

Good private soldiers aren't cheap, and PMC's are all the coming fashion when the public is jaded about it's own citizens getting killed.

As for reliability, it depends who/what you hire. Mad Mike was certainly a stand-up chap, and when not hung out to dry, his Wild Geese did very good work.

Pekka · November 8, 2003, 07:35

GePap, Wrong! PMCs are used ALL THE TIME, now especially. They are hired all the time, business is good now. Did I say there are PMCs in the US too? Listen, they are completely legal. And they keep being legal as long as they don't help criminals, rebels, terrorists and what not. YOu think they are cheap??? They don't do big offensives! They do only 'small' operations. No one has 10 000 guys in their ranks there. They are smaller, but highly pro and effective.

MOST OF THE TIME, they don't do conventional fighting. They do security consulting, security missions like body guarding etc, and YES even purely humanitarian missions. Lots of them are doing mine sweeping, for example I think it was Lebanon who contracted some companies to hired PMCs to clear some, was it UN or someone else who gave them the money, and they chose the hard working guys who will do it properly. It's all based on reputation, if you don't have one, you don't get another job, naturally.

Some of you have really weird images about mercenaries. Like they are all pirates, look and sound like pirates, just looking for someone to pay them $10 so they can kill some women and children. I'm not saying there are no rotten apples there, I'm sure there is true sickos. I have no sympathy for them. I have no sympathy for mercenaries in general, I'm just breaking few myths.

We have one of the most horrible generalizations here I've ever seen. And sure someone did pretty badly in Africa, Congo etc in 70s, but.. that was then, they were one company, and there are lots of them and this is now. I guess you have no grasp of what it takes to be a LEGAL pmc. They can't go and kill random people when they wish to do that. And it's not good business, and not professional.

I've asked many times, do you guys consider soldiers in general the same then? Soldiers are known to kill people, in professional armies they get paid. And if war happens, they HAVE to go fighting. Mercs don't have to fight if they so choose. THey can choose their side too, that's more flexible. Oh, and pro soldiers don't have a choice? Yes they do. Don't join. Why the hell people will join the army and then wonder that now they have to do war????????

There are no individuals, who go to commanders and say 'I'm hardcore pay me $10 000 a month and I'll kill some enemy civies for yoU!'.

I guess some of you thinks this is reality!
These days you either join PMC, or you go and volunteer for someone. And they pay you CRAP money. So you can't say they fight for the money, if youj make 300 deutcshe marks per month. Right?! And volunteers are not all evil and bad civilian killers. I'm grateful for the Estonian, Swedish etc volunteers who helped us! I don't go peeing on their graves because they were 'mercs'.

Molly Bloom, what a beautiful analogy you had there.

MtG, What kind of people you'd be hiring then, you sick man?

People, don't get fired up, because you hear the word mercenary and it does have bad feelign to it. I'm not trying to defend this guys here so much as trying to discuss that sometimes we don't know all there is to it here. Why I think we should talka bout this? I think PMCs are rising all the time, now it's good business and in the future,, who knows.

Pekka · November 8, 2003, 07:41

And btw, they do security for companies that has their offices and workers in dangerous areas. I don't think you hire Securitas to do that job when you have the areas controlled by guerillas, drug lords and not strong gov enough to protect your business to prevent these guys from just messing with your business and making you pay some serious money for you to stay alive there.

DaShi · November 8, 2003, 09:41

Why does this thread remind me of this http://www.realultimatepower.net/ ?

Pekka · November 8, 2003, 09:55

Has nothing to do with those guys

Bugs ****ing Bunny · November 8, 2003, 10:58

"They'll kill for you, but they won't die for you."

Pekka · November 8, 2003, 11:06

volunteers will die for you. The did, the still do and they continue doing it.

PMC loses men all the time. It was just noted, that Sandline lost men in Iraq.