South Carolina Drug Sweep: Police State?

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Troll -

Ah, the good 'ol days! But I never killed or hurt anyone when not thinking "straight" so what "problem" did I cause?



Yup. Gone are the days when warrants were served in a civil manner.



Not much peace during war.

You say you didnt kill or hurt anyone..I never said that was only harm..Murder or hurting..you took drugs..someone "dealt" them to you, someone grew the weed...transported it, fronted it or whatever..there are such things as emotional pain which could cause someone to do irritational things..Known and Unknown..

You DO NOT NEED A WARRANT to search a school when called in by the system..learn the Laws so you may respond properly..same as you do not need a warrant for searching a vehicle in a known drug area, nor do you need a warrant to search a suspicious person..or persons in the vicinity of aknown crime area...which is the school in this case, the reliable source is the principal..

Wait..in this state as well as many others we have School Resource Officers which are Certified Law Enforcement Officers that deal with crime on campus, "Protecting" innocents as well as "detaining" suspicious ones..

I am not at war..are you?

Peace (with all sincerity)

Grandpa Troll

[mrmitchell]

Well, the school system called the police in and had surveillence tapes showing what was described as transactions. The school had years ago when I attended in the 1970's and to this date have the rights to search any person,place or thing on campus, after all, its not the kids personal property, its a public school, much like a govt. building or state owned property and thusly subject to search and seizure laws set aside by that body Political.

A kid's backpack is government property!?

[Berzerker]

Troll -

The school had years ago when I attended in the 1970's and to this date have the rights to search any person,place or thing on campus, after all, its not the kids personal property, its a public school, much like a govt. building or state owned property and thusly subject to search and seizure laws set aside by that body Political.

The 4th Amendment applies to citizens on government property and backpacks and people are not state property. It sounds like this "warrant" was general in nature, "school sees transactions in the past and asks for a general search". That's like the cops seeing street transactions during the past month and searches everyone on the street today. If that's their rationale, it's bogus. If they had a specific tip for that day, then it wouldn't be a general search except for the fact they were searching everyone, but like I said, they don't even need a warrant if they have a tip of an ongoing crime. Btw, I know schools and cops do this, I was wondering how this "right" to launch general searches was justified wrt the Constitution so telling me they had this "right" back in the 70's doesn't tell me anything. Obviously the SCOTUS has given law enforcement it's blessing, but the SCOTUS just invented this "right", not the Constitution.

As for Doctrine of childrens civil rights, what about the untold innocent kids whom have to be subjected day in and day out to trafficking,usage and other dealings?

So if children's rights are allegedly being violated by non-state employees, then state employees should violate their rights too? Would you extend that logic to murder? If you're so concerned about children being aware of trafficking (hey, kids know that "trafficking" goes on at the local liquer store too), enforcing a prohibition on drugs thereby creating the trafficking sounds counterproductive, true?

Its a shame we have to have this conversation, but drugs are an unfortunate part of society..and as "Ugly" as this Police action is being presented, its an even uglier situation having this in our school system.

Do you have evidence the drug war reduces consumption? I ask only to point out that drugs exist and we can choose whether or not to add to that "unfortunate" reality by waging a drug war that creates situations like this one on S.C, well, much worse situations like in Tulia, Texas. Read up on that unfortunate reality...

So as innocent as these children are purported to be, as one child said in a post incident statement, "The school knows whom the dealers and users are, why not go after them?"

Ok, so now we have an admission from an "innocent"..

Or are these kids all innocent? I wasnt there..nor were you or anyone else posting here...all we know for sure is this:

A-The school admitted it had a problem

B-Called in professionals

C-No drugs, only tape evidence and positive "Hits" by a narcotics dog

D-Failure by "Innocent" kids to obey a lawful order of a Govt. Official..a police officer to obey a command..when they didnt they were restrained and put down on ground

E-No shots fired and a safe sweep completed

It appears they were all innocent since no drugs or guns were found.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by mrmitchell

A kid's backpack is government property!?

Yes..on school property.

Why, if a person is innocent, would they have a problem being searched?

They are "kids' and attending school and yes the school has not only the right but the obligation to search when ever an issue arises, search all then you will know its fair, not just the "long hairs" or the "Jocks" or the "minorities"...search all

Wouldnt this be a much more acceptable procedure to all the whiney-pots that feel there child is being discriminated to? Maybe if all get searched more frequently that may deter some from bringing contraband to our schools

Peace

Grandpa Troll

[Berzerker]

Troll -

You say you didnt kill or hurt anyone..I never said that was only harm.. Murder or hurting..you took drugs..someone "dealt" them to you, someone grew the weed...transported it, fronted it or whatever..there are such things as emotional pain which could cause someone to do irritational things..Known and Unknown..

If you're concerned with the harm created by the black market in drugs, lay blame with those who made drugs illegal. I didn't do that... As for "emotional" pain, what in life doesn't create emotional pain? Life causes emotional pain so that's a meaningless standard. But it appears you think I'm responsible for the harm caused by others and should be punished. Should I be punished if I own a gun and someone else murders people with a gun?

YOU DO NOT NEED A WARRANT to search a school when called in by the system..learn the Laws so you may respond properly..

You need a warrant for any search, read the 4th Amendment...you know...the law! The only time a warrant is not needed is when there is evidence of an ongoing crime, i.e., the search becomes "reasonable". IF, as I said (did you read what I said?) there is evidence that a crime was occuring on that day and not just some speculation by school administrators that because drug transactions happened in the past, drug transactions might be happening today, then a warrant isn't even needed. Thx so much for repeating what I said only to act as if I never said it.

same as you do not need a warrant for searching a vehicle in a known drug area, nor do you need a warrant to search a suspicious person..or persons in the vicinity of aknown crime area...which is the school in this case, the reliable source is the principal..

You're citing policies that violate the Constitution to justify policies that violate the Constitution. The SCOTUS invented loopholes in the 4th Amendment so don't use those loopholes to justify more loopholes and then tell me I need to read the law. I've read it...

I am not at war..are you?

What do you call the drug war? There ain't much peace during a war...

[Berzerker]

Troll -

Yes..on school property.

Why? Where in the 4th Amendment did you find an exception that allows unwarranted searches on school property?

Why, if a person is innocent, would they have a problem being searched?

Gee, ask the children who had guns pointed at them.
How about a full body cavity search there, Troll? If you're innocent, you shouldn't mind, right?

They are "kids' and attending school and yes the school has not only the right but the obligation to search when ever an issue arises, search all then you will know its fair, not just the "long hairs" or the "Jocks" or the "minorities"...search all

The Constitution says kids aren't protected by the BoR?

Wouldnt this be a much more acceptable procedure to all the whiney-pots that feel there child is being discriminated to? Maybe if all get searched more frequently that may deter some from bringing contraband to our schools

I agree, but it won't result in the seizure of more contraband for very long, it will result in more pissed off parents and, God forbid, more respect for the constitutional limits on police searches.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Troll -

The 4th Amendment applies to citizens on government property and backpacks and people are not state property. It sounds like this "warrant" was general in nature, "school sees transactions in the past and asks for a general search". That's like the cops seeing street transactions during the past month and searches everyone on the street today. If that's their rationale, it's bogus. If they had a specific tip for that day, then it wouldn't be a general search except for the fact they were searching everyone, but like I said, they don't even need a warrant if they have a tip of an ongoing crime. Btw, I know schools and cops do this, I was wondering how this "right" to launch general searches was justified wrt the Constitution so telling me they had this "right" back in the 70's doesn't tell me anything. Obviously the SCOTUS has given law enforcement it's blessing, but the SCOTUS just invented this "right", not the Constitution.





So if children's rights are allegedly being violated by non-state employees, then state employees should violate their rights too? Would you extend that logic to murder? If you're so concerned about children being aware of trafficking (hey, kids know that "trafficking" goes on at the local liquer store too), enforcing a prohibition on drugs thereby creating the trafficking sounds counterproductive, true?



Do you have evidence the drug war reduces consumption? I ask only to point out that drugs exist and we can choose whether or not to add to that "unfortunate" reality by waging a drug war that creates situations like this one on S.C, well, much worse situations like in Tulia, Texas. Read up on that unfortunate reality...



It appears they were all innocent since no drugs or guns were found.

It "appears" but that doesnt mean that "all" are innocent..there was evidence reported, i wasnt there so i dont know, I only read what you read, but the fact that no drugs were found is like saying Jeffrey Dahmer wasnt a murdering Fag because when the Milwaukee PD showed up and failed to do anything to a screaming bloodied man that since the police found nothing wrong, no crime was committed?

Isnt this what you are saying?

I remeber the Rodney King Trial, twisting the movie around so people actually believed they didnt see the cops beating the snot out of Rodney king. No crimes were committed by the police under state law? He was not what a person could call a "Model Citizen" by any stretch but certainly didnt deserve what happened to him.



Did he get beaten to within an inch of his life?

Yes

Did the police get charged and found guilty by our due process? No..they held a travesty of a trial and were later tried under a different trial.

Just because no evidence was found doesnt mean the are innocent.


[Do you have evidence the drug war reduces consumption? I ask only to point out that drugs exist and we can choose whether or not to add to that "unfortunate" reality by waging a drug war that creates situations like this one on S.C, well, much worse situations like in Tulia, Texas. Read up on that unfortunate reality...]

No I dont think we are winning our war on drugs, Yes I think we should keep trying and yes I feel that schools should do a more active part in reducing violence and crime within their schools. I was a victim of a viscious beating which almost left me dead. Yeah, I am somewhat passionate because I have been there and what the 1970's have to do with this is painfully clear, that the schools have had some right taken away by Liberals whom feel that they are above being held accountable and no i dont like the idea of "Big Brother' snooping around but its not that you can legislate morality, but we do need someone to "enforce" the laws we have.


War on Drugs you say?

1970's you say?

heres one for you..and I think you will like.


Marijuana usage up..laws cant seem to bring numbers down..HEY heres an idea!



Lets "decriminalize" a certain amount of pot/possession so that under say 1 oz is now no lnger a felony.

Ok..NOW check out the laws success.."After _____ years of hard fought battles against drug dealers we finally are seeing some results..

NO we are not..we just made it "less" illegal than in previous years.

Still have the problems but now we have less problems on "paper"

or court..plead out so not to tie up court..

Shame..BUT the problems till go on

Peace

Grandpa Troll

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Troll -

Why? Where in the 4th Amendment did you find an exception that allows unwarranted searches on school property?



Gee, ask the children who had guns pointed at them.
How about a full body cavity search there, Troll? If you're innocent, you shouldn't mind, right?



The Constitution says kids aren't protected by the BoR?



I agree, but it won't result in the seizure of more contraband for very long, it will result in more pissed off parents and, God forbid, more respect for the constitutional limits on police searches.

I knew the kids had seen guns but when you say "Pointed at them" do you mean in the general direction or what?

Oh and how about the teen whom stated she was assaulted by the police and lo and behold she wasnt even in the hallway? So how credible, and I am not saying as previously stated in an earlier post that this was the bext course of action, but then again i werent there either?, are the statements of the other kids?

Oh the girl is being charge with filing a false police report..tsk tsk tsk..

I never stated I agreed for Body Cavity Searches when in fact there would have to be overwhelming need for that in order for me to agree...unless they were being booked at a correctional institute then by all means, have at it. THats what happens when you get incarcerated, no its not pretty nor is it anything but humiliating to the one its happeneing to..BUT its a necessary part of the process.

As far as kids being searched and parents being outraged, maybe have the parents start doing a better job of policing and parenting their own kids..just a thought it maybe would help?

Peace

Grandpa "Still-at-peace-eventhough-we are @ a drug war stance" Troll

[Berzerker]

Troll -

It "appears" but that doesnt mean that "all" are innocent..

Innocent until proven guilty. Prove them guilty instead of implying guilt without evidence.

there was evidence reported, i wasnt there so i dont know, I only read what you read, but the fact that no drugs were found is like saying Jeffrey Dahmer wasnt a murdering Fag because when the Milwaukee PD showed up and failed to do anything to a screaming bloodied man that since the police found nothing wrong, no crime was committed?

He was found guilty in a court of law, the fact police initially ignored evidence of a crime is not analogous to the absence of evidence in this case. The fact remains, no drugs were found. That means they were innocent. My God Troll, you not only want unwarranted searches but you want them convicted without a trial? Yes, we all understand the fact a person can be guilty of murder and never be convicted, but we don't go around harassing people based on what ifs and presumptions of guilt in the absence of evidence (I hope not anyway).

I remeber the Rodney King Trial, twisting the movie around so people actually believed they didnt see the cops beating the snot out of Rodney king. No crimes were committed by the police under state law? He was not what a person could call a "Model Citizen" by any stretch but certainly didnt deserve what happened to him.

Oh, now you're making judgements when you weren't there? Nor did we see what King did before the tape started rolling. Now, based only on what we did see on the tape I'd agree at some point the cops went beyond what is reasonable, but from what I heard, King was drunk and giving the cops sh!t. His buddies cooperated and they weren't mistreated, you can even see them leaning against a cop car watching. Trust me, I know very well how abusive cops can be (they seem to get more abusive during drug "wars"), but King is not the poster child you seek.

Did he get beaten to within an inch of his life?

Yes

Hardly. They were hitting him on his limbs and he was never in critical condition while in the hospital.

Did the police get charged and found guilty by our due process? No..they held a travesty of a trial and were later tried under a different trial.

And King won.

Just because no evidence was found doesnt mean the are innocent.

There was plenty of evidence, the cops' lawyers succeeded in convincing jurors that each swat at King was in response to his continued refusal to cooperate. Trying to compare that with the absence of evidence in this school case is illogical.

No I dont think we are winning our war on drugs

I'll join you out on that limb. What's that saying about insanity - keep doing the same thing while expecting a different result?

Yes I think we should keep trying and yes I feel that schools should do a more active part in reducing violence and crime within their schools.

Hey, have the cops come in like that 3 or 4 times a day then.

I was a victim of a viscious beating which almost left me dead. Yeah, I am somewhat passionate because I have been there

So because of this beating you want millions punished for using drugs (apparently you ignore the harm you want inflicted on others)? If you were beaten by someone drinking booze, would you demand all alcohol users be punished too? A person can be passionate about their immorality too...

and what the 1970's have to do with this is painfully clear, that the schools have had some right taken away by Liberals whom feel that they are above being held accountable and no i dont like the idea of "Big Brother' snooping around but its not that you can legislate morality, but we do need someone to "enforce" the laws we have.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/.../graphs/10.htm

Take a look at the "security" you helped create.

War on Drugs you say?

1970's you say?

No, you're the one who keeps rambling on about the 70's.

heres one for you..and I think you will like.

Marijuana usage up..laws cant seem to bring numbers down..HEY heres an idea!

Lets "decriminalize" a certain amount of pot/possession so that under say 1 oz is now no lnger a felony.

Ok..NOW check out the laws success.."After _____ years of hard fought battles against drug dealers we finally are seeing some results..

NO we are not..we just made it "less" illegal than in previous years.

Still have the problems but now we have less problems on "paper"

or court..plead out so not to tie up court..

Shame..BUT the problems till go on

Who ever said marijuana use would disappear if it was decriminalised? I see you're still basing your support for the drug war on the immoral proposition that one group of people should be punished for the actions of another group. Do you believe people who don't use drugs should be punished if some of them commit murder? If you want to subject people to your drug war, at least show us that your war has achieved something other than create more crime, etc... How do you explain the lower rates of pot use by teens in the Netherlands where it has been "legalised" for adults? Btw, decriminalising pot use won't do much to decrease black market induced crime. These people who talk about decriminalising drugs aren't getting it, prohibition makes us less safe and repealing prohibition a little bit won't get rid of the crime resulting from the black market.

Troll, when was the last time you heard of alcohol dealers having shootouts over marketshare?

[mrmitchell]

I never stated I agreed for Body Cavity Searches when in fact there would have to be overwhelming need for that in order for me to agree...unless they were being booked at a correctional institute then by all means, have at it. THats what happens when you get incarcerated, no its not pretty nor is it anything but humiliating to the one its happeneing to..BUT its a necessary part of the process.

But you're innocent! You shouldn't mind. Unless you've got something to hide.

[Berzerker]

Troll -

I knew the kids had seen guns but when you say "Pointed at them" do you mean in the general direction or what?

At them, I saw the tape and heard the kids' statements.

Oh and how about the teen whom stated she was assaulted by the police and lo and behold she wasnt even in the hallway? So how credible, and I am not saying as previously stated in an earlier post that this was the bext course of action, but then again i werent there either?, are the statements of the other kids?

Maybe she wasn't telling the truth, does that mean all the other kids were lying...including the tape?

Oh the girl is being charge with filing a false police report..tsk tsk tsk..

And we'll see if she's guilty, but you already have her convicted too.

I never stated I agreed for Body Cavity Searches when in fact there would have to be overwhelming need for that in order for me to agree...unless they were being booked at a correctional institute then by all means, have at it.

Oh, but if you're innocent, why would you mind? You're already backtracking...

THats what happens when you get incarcerated, no its not pretty nor is it anything but humiliating to the one its happeneing to..BUT its a necessary part of the process.

People have been subjected to full body cavity searches for flying on airplanes so don't act like it only happens in jail.

As far as kids being searched and parents being outraged, maybe have the parents start doing a better job of policing and parenting their own kids..just a thought it maybe would help?

Troll, you aren't getting it, NO DRUGS WERE FOUND! What are these parents supposed to do if their kids are innocent? Oh, well, do a better job of parenting anyway... Parents, it's your fault the cops behaved this way because you are baaaad parents. My God this is getting inane...

[Berzerker]

Mitchell -

But you're innocent! You shouldn't mind. Unless you've got something to hide.

Trolls eat crow

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Odin

Most high school students don't know what the constitution is, let alone thier rights under it, and that's what Ashcroft and the rest of his G-men want.

Which is why Republicans have sponsored bills requiring social studies and / or citizenship courses in schools that receive federal money. The brilliant and devious part of this plan is that they know that there is no way anyone can possibly learn this sort of thing in a public school, as public schools cannot even teach people how to read or write. So they cover their tracks brilliantly, while we all slave away unaware in the gulag. Except for you of course, how do you manage to keep your identity secret?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Uber KruX

you'd all be singing a different tune if an officer was paralyzed after the raid.

Hallelujah?


(Don't worry, it's a troll)

[mrmitchell]

Which is why Republicans have sponsored bills requiring social studies and / or citizenship courses in schools that receive federal money.

Civics courses don't teach half a ****...

[Berzerker]

you'd all be singing a different tune if an officer was paralyzed after the raid.

Fortunately there were no friendly fire incidents.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Troll


You are wrong about that!

I am a recovering addict..I can tell you people dont think straight when on a 4 day "wired trip" on Chrystal Meth

People dont feel much when on Phencyclidine http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofax/pcp.html

Call it Love Boat (marijuana soaked), Angel Dust-(Powder form), "Green" (Parsley soaked)

Cocaine/Crack induced rages..

As for Guns drawn and children on their knees it is called containment

Peace

Grandpa Troll

You bastardize the word peace. Former drug addict and cop? Yet another do as I sayer hypocrite. And marijuana smoking is only a problem in the eyes of the beholder.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Very good chance. Police are drawing guns on "children".

These poor children will not be able to study, suffer from PTSD, be afraid to go to school, need to switch schools. Hee hee

It depends if the state allows you to sue it for 'intentional infliction of emotional distress' (which is hard anyway). You've heard of the doctrine of soveriegn immunity, right?

They can sue for right to privacy (being a Constitutional issue and all), but not like that will get you too much.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
It depends if the state allows you to sue it for 'intentional infliction of emotional distress' (which is hard anyway). You've heard of the doctrine of soveriegn immunity, right?

Cops work for cities and municipalities - which do not have soveriegn immunity. Only states have soveriegn immunity.

As for the tort, I would go for assault in this case given the cops put the children in immanent danger by going in guns drawn. Survive a motion to dismiss, and the jury will likely be composed of community members, many with kids. At that point, the elements for assault will likely be found (by shoehorn if necessary).

[Berzerker]

NeOmega - Troll is a cop?

I doubt they can sue, the courts will allow the search because the courts have created loopholes in the 4th Amendment and if the cops claim they were acting on a tip of an ongoing crime, they have cover for the behavior. After all, they regularly bust into people's homes with guns drawn and don't face lawsuits unless they kill someone and the raid was unsuccessful wrt a siezure.

[Berzerker]

I remember reading about a case in Florida where feds boarded some guy's yacht looking for drugs. They literally tore it apart and the boat sank from the damage. The owner sued and he was told by the AG's office that they wouldn't pay for the damage because he was insured. So private insurance companies are liable for the damage done by government employees?

[Ned]

Anyone remember the Gestapo-like raid to take Elian Gonzales away from his family?

If you do not equally condemn that raid, then you are not convincing me that you have any true concern for excessive police action.

[Berzerker]

Gee Ned, you didn't condemn this raid, does that mean you're being hypocritical or do you support excessive police raids? Shall I mention Waco and immediately accuse people of hypocrisy for not condemning that raid while condemning this one?

[Ned]

Berzerker, I think you doth protest too much.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by mrmitchell
Versus Troll's own horror story, here's the other end of the spectrum:

-Cops come rushing in the building, order everyone to get down, have guns drawn. (What basically happened.) Group of stupid brats decides to fight back with guns or just mobbing the cop, and cops fire shots.

Honestly, if a little brat is going to fight back, he's going to do it whether the cops can beat the snot out of him or not. Especially if they've got the "peer pressure of a power trip" on them--think, he can tell his homies in the hood that he got gunned down by a real live cop! (He could probably brag about the huge out-of-court settlement he got for it too.)

I willing to bet that wouldn't have happened.

[The Templar]

Elian Gonzales - child that had been effectively kidnapped, being held in a neighborhood that declared it would resist removal, and a local police department that stated that it would oppose federal efforts. Moreover, the kid was actually there, this was not a shady tip. Excessive, but blame the morons creating the attendant circumstances.

Waco - bullshit warrants based on lying to a judge, teargas, tanks, and flamethrowers. Plus these people weren't going anywhere - the authorities could have waited out those idiots forever. Yeah, Waco was crime.

[Ned]

Templar, Elian wasn't going anywhere as well.

But still, some consistency. So, I too will condemn the High School raid with drawn guns. Totally unnecessary.

[NeOmega]

NeOmega - Troll is a cop?

Originally posted by Troll
No I dont think it was the "Most appropriate" action, but as a former Law Enforcement official I see the need for containment...

Grandpa Troll

[Ramo]

All I have to say is,

Crab people
Crab people
Tastes like crab
Looks like people
Crab people
Crab people


Police. (what a suprise!)

[mrmitchell]

I willing to bet that wouldn't have happened.

I'm willing to bet a kid fighting back against armed or unarmed wouldn't've happened either.