November 10, 2003, 13:23
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#31
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Prince
Local Time: 08:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Picksburgh
Posts: 837
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Traelin
Hrm one thing I've always wondered but would forget to ask is whether or not the AI uses GLs to RB Wonders. Does anyone have verifiable evidence that they do?
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Yes. At least in PTW they did. I established an embassy once with a civ. The city picture of the capital showed a partially finished wonder and a GL among the units in the city. Next turn, they built the wonder there.
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November 10, 2003, 13:23
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#32
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Prince
Local Time: 13:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 303
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I have, in the past, traded an advance to the AI and the AI has built the Great Wonder that required that advance the very next turn. So it must have either been prebuilding the thing or have used a Great Leader. I don't believe the AI prebuilds.
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November 10, 2003, 14:45
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#33
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Deity
Local Time: 08:10
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
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Not really, but it sure looks like it to me. ONe wonder was not showing as under construction and a few turns later it was completed, so I got to conclude it was rushed or the F7 is not working.
OK I should add I could have been wrong, blind or confused.
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November 10, 2003, 14:52
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#34
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King
Local Time: 06:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Wichita,KS,USA
Posts: 1,044
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Traelin
Hrm one thing I've always wondered but would forget to ask is whether or not the AI uses GLs to RB Wonders. Does anyone have verifiable evidence that they do?
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Yes, they do. I was using debug mode a long time to see if the AI would use GL's in this manner, and they did on several occasions. I was watching the AI cities building Wonders.
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November 10, 2003, 15:45
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#35
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Warlord
Local Time: 04:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Franky's Cellar
Posts: 241
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Quote:
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Originally posted by mimi
Then a couple games later (I get bored easily) I see a popup and there's the guy in the black suit again. Very cool and he can't get killed like my military ones always did...
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Hmm...I'm pretty sure that Scientific Great Leaders can be killed just like Military Great Leaders (although if you ask me, I think it would be cooler for SGLs to be capturable -- after all, the US did 'obtain' a great deal of scientists from Germany after WWII...)
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November 10, 2003, 15:51
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#36
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Emperor
Local Time: 08:10
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Space
Posts: 5,117
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Scientific leaders are killable, I believe. I think the point is that they are less likely to be killed, as they spawn within your cities as opposed to in a warzone
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November 10, 2003, 15:56
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#37
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Emperor
Local Time: 07:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: flying too low to the ground
Posts: 4,625
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yeah, they spawn in your capital.
if you're ahead on the tech race and lose your capital, or move (up to 2 moves, i believe) into the enemy's range, you're stupid, and deserve to lose him.
__________________
"I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
- Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card
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November 10, 2003, 19:04
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#38
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Prince
Local Time: 06:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Huntsville AL
Posts: 300
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Quote:
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Originally posted by RobC
Hmm...I'm pretty sure that Scientific Great Leaders can be killed just like Military Great Leaders (although if you ask me, I think it would be cooler for SGLs to be capturable -- after all, the US did 'obtain' a great deal of scientists from Germany after WWII...)
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OOOhhhhhhh - I Like that Idea! - Admitably, it would be a rare event .
Change #1 - SGL's are capturable like settlers and Arty.
Change #1.5 - Captured SGL's cannot rush Great Wonders, but may rush small wonders and contribute only to a lesser science bonus - say 10 turns or a single city.
Change #2 - SGL's appear in the city producing the greatest Science Contribution (More realistic, and greater possibility of that city falling)
1.5 and 2 may require a patch to become workable.
Actually - Poking around in the editor - the generic unit 'Leader' already has a defense of 0, which according to the help file implies that leaders are already capturable - It may be that in PTW the AI was always disbanding captured MGL's just like it would often disband captured workers. - so .... SGL's may already be in the capturable catagory.
Anyone in the know care to comment?
Thanks
Kevin P.
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November 10, 2003, 19:27
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#39
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Prince
Local Time: 07:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The First State
Posts: 446
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In vanilla civ, they got killed. Think about Artillery. If you don't have the tech, but capture Artillery, it gets destroyed. GLs are produced without a tech, so you can never build them. Thus they get destroyed (try attacking an enemy scout with a expansionist civ, than try without the expansionist ability).
__________________
Viva la Spam
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November 10, 2003, 19:52
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#40
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Warlord
Local Time: 04:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Franky's Cellar
Posts: 241
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Perhaps you could try a mod where leaders are buildable, but cost some outrageous amount (more than any wonder)...then perhaps they will be capturable. (although I notice in the editor that there is only one 'leader' unit that has 'build army', 'finish improvement' and 'science age' all checked, so the difference between SGLs and MGLs may be hard-coded meaning if you can capture one you can capture both...)
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November 10, 2003, 21:09
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#41
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King
Local Time: 06:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Wichita,KS,USA
Posts: 1,044
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Quote:
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Originally posted by RobC
Perhaps you could try a mod where leaders are buildable, but cost some outrageous amount (more than any wonder)...then perhaps they will be capturable. (although I notice in the editor that there is only one 'leader' unit that has 'build army', 'finish improvement' and 'science age' all checked, so the difference between SGLs and MGLs may be hard-coded meaning if you can capture one you can capture both...)
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I had a buildable leader mod way back in Civ3. I will try this later tonight and see what happens. I don't know if it is still true, but in Civ3, you had to make something else available for the Battle Created Unit or the Leader wouldn't show up.
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November 10, 2003, 21:39
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#42
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Deity
Local Time: 05:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 17,354
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so the only way to rush a great wonder is using a scientific leader?
Or did they change it so you can use gold again?
__________________
Focus, discipline
Barack Obama- the antichrist
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November 11, 2003, 03:25
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#43
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King
Local Time: 06:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Wichita,KS,USA
Posts: 1,044
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Dissident
so the only way to rush a great wonder is using a scientific leader?
Or did they change it so you can use gold again?
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SGL's are the only way to rush Wonders.
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November 11, 2003, 16:16
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#44
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Deity
Local Time: 05:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 17,354
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The ai seemed to be building wonders like crazy. And I was only playing warlord level yesterday. I think they may have lowered the cost, or somehow beefed up city production.
I've been able to build a few, so I can't complain. But I have yet to get a scientific leader. I'm still not all that happy with the wonder building model. But oh well.
__________________
Focus, discipline
Barack Obama- the antichrist
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November 11, 2003, 19:39
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#45
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King
Local Time: 07:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,513
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I have gotten frustrated not being able to ruch buy wonders when i started playing civ3 over civ2, but all in all, i think it is better to not be able to rush buy the wonders.
Although I must admit that I find myself staring at the monitor in awe and paranoia sometimes as I watch ai civ after ai civ beat me to wonder after wonder.
__________________
While there might be a physics engine that applies to the jugs, I doubt that an entire engine was written specifically for the funbags. - Cyclotron - debating the pressing issue of boobies in games.
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November 11, 2003, 19:50
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#46
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Deity
Local Time: 05:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 17,354
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I just really hate it when they beat me by 1 or 2 turns. It drives me bonkers. It's like they know I'm about to finish.
They did that last night to me with Copernicus', but I just researched theory so I switched to Newton's.
__________________
Focus, discipline
Barack Obama- the antichrist
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November 11, 2003, 19:57
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#47
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King
Local Time: 07:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,513
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yes, most of the time i get beat it is within 1-4 turns of me completing it.
most dubious
__________________
While there might be a physics engine that applies to the jugs, I doubt that an entire engine was written specifically for the funbags. - Cyclotron - debating the pressing issue of boobies in games.
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November 11, 2003, 21:19
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#48
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Chieftain
Local Time: 06:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 89
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Quote:
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Originally posted by RobC
Perhaps you could try a mod where leaders are buildable, but cost some outrageous amount (more than any wonder)...then perhaps they will be capturable. (although I notice in the editor that there is only one 'leader' unit that has 'build army', 'finish improvement' and 'science age' all checked, so the difference between SGLs and MGLs may be hard-coded meaning if you can capture one you can capture both...)
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can make a buildable leader in C3C. You could in PTW. The "finish improvement" switch is there, but it doesn't seem to work - at least I've had no luck.
__________________
"Is it sport? I think it is. And does affection breed it? I think it does. Is it frailty that so errs? It is so too." - Shakespeare, Othello IV,iii
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November 11, 2003, 21:25
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#49
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Deity
Local Time: 08:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
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Does not seem to work for MGL, they can't seem to build anything but armies.
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November 11, 2003, 23:01
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#50
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Warlord
Local Time: 04:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Franky's Cellar
Posts: 241
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Strange...after playing around with leaders in the editor, it seems like:
1) Leaders added to the map using the editor can rush wonders and build armies, but cannot rush normal improvements and cannot start scientific ages
2) You can't remove any of the special action flags (build army, finish improvement, science age) or the 'leader' unit ability, or the unit will no longer be able to do anything
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November 11, 2003, 23:07
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#51
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Deity
Local Time: 08:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
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I just tried using a MGL to rush a temple and that worked in an "epic" game. I could have sworn I tried in this game to rush another non-wonder structure and it would not let me.
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November 11, 2003, 23:25
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#52
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King
Local Time: 12:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 1,141
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I got 2 in my current game. Good stuff.
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November 12, 2003, 01:42
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#53
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King
Local Time: 06:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Wichita,KS,USA
Posts: 1,044
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Quote:
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Originally posted by jackshot
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can make a buildable leader in C3C. You could in PTW. The "finish improvement" switch is there, but it doesn't seem to work - at least I've had no luck.
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I know in Civ3, for a Leader to be buildable, you had to choose a different option for Battle Created Unit in place of Leader. I haven't tried this in Conquests yet to see if it still holds true.
Quote:
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Originally posted by RobC
Strange...after playing around with leaders in the editor, it seems like:
1) Leaders added to the map using the editor can rush wonders and build armies, but cannot rush normal improvements and cannot start scientific ages
2) You can't remove any of the special action flags (build army, finish improvement, science age) or the 'leader' unit ability, or the unit will no longer be able to do anything
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I removed the Science Age flag in a quick mod. In testing the mod, I also changed the Battle Created Unit to Army, gave the Leader a cost of 1 for quick building.
Results. It could rush Great Wonders, but not improvements; it could also create Armies once I had 4 cities in play. It also couildn't start a Scientific Age. I was able to build it from the start since I didn't place any tech requirements on it.
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November 12, 2003, 03:22
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#54
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Warlord
Local Time: 04:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Franky's Cellar
Posts: 241
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It looks like the battle created unit thing was what I missed. However, whether or not you have science age checked, it seems have the same behavior (build armies or rush wonders only)...also, leaders don't seem to be capturable even if they are buildable by all, and are not the battle created unit -- it's possible that it's hard-coded for units with the 'leader' ability to be destroyed when attacked.
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November 12, 2003, 03:57
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#55
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King
Local Time: 06:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Wichita,KS,USA
Posts: 1,044
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Quote:
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Originally posted by RobC
It looks like the battle created unit thing was what I missed. However, whether or not you have science age checked, it seems have the same behavior (build armies or rush wonders only)...also, leaders don't seem to be capturable even if they are buildable by all, and are not the battle created unit -- it's possible that it's hard-coded for units with the 'leader' ability to be destroyed when attacked.
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I noticed the Science Age issue when I tried the leader both ways.
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November 12, 2003, 21:25
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#56
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Emperor
Local Time: 07:10
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Maryland Heights, MO
Posts: 6,188
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I don't get beat out to wonders that I invest a lot of shields building in my games; instad its the AI that gets beat out by the 1-4 turn margin.
Of course, this was before SGLs and I don't know if the AI is smart enough to almost always use them for GLs. But I'm guessing the AI will probably mostly use them for boosting science.
Quote:
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Originally posted by vee4473
yes, most of the time i get beat it is within 1-4 turns of me completing it.
most dubious
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__________________
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AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now. :mad:
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November 13, 2003, 10:44
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#57
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Emperor
Local Time: 14:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
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Location: MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
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Quote:
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Originally posted by joncnunn
I don't get beat out to wonders that I invest a lot of shields building in my games; instad its the AI that gets beat out by the 1-4 turn margin. 
Of course, this was before SGLs and I don't know if the AI is smart enough to almost always use them for GLs. But I'm guessing the AI will probably mostly use them for boosting science.
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hi ,
unfortunatly the answer is no , .....
it would be nice to see the AI use them better when the level goes up , .......
Firaxis , .....
have a nice day
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November 13, 2003, 17:49
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#58
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King
Local Time: 14:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,333
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Traelin
Hrm one thing I've always wondered but would forget to ask is whether or not the AI uses GLs to RB Wonders. Does anyone have verifiable evidence that they do?
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I've been investigating AI cities to see if they can compete with me in some wonders just to find they have been rushbuilding them a turn later.
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November 14, 2003, 10:19
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#59
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Emperor
Local Time: 12:10
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Was playing as the Maya today. Got a SGL with the first tech I researched. Since the Maya start with Masonry, I used him to rush build the Pyramids in the year 3450 BC!!!!
Fanes7 eat your heart out!
Only problem with this is that the Maya are Ind and Ag. Building the Pyramids put me in a GA. I still only had one city!
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November 14, 2003, 12:03
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#60
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Deity
Local Time: 08:10
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
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Quote:
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Was playing as the Maya today. Got a SGL with the first tech I researched. Since the Maya start with Masonry, I used him to rush build the Pyramids in the year 3450 BC!!!!
Fanes7 eat your heart out!
Only problem with this is that the Maya are Ind and Ag. Building the Pyramids put me in a GA. I still only had one city!
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I've been hoping for something like that to happen for me, though not with a Ind/Ag or Ind/Rel civ, to avoid the GA thing.
I like the idea of picking a commercial civ and researching up the writing path at full speed. That pretty much guarantees you're first to writing, philo, whichever bonus tech you chose from that (CoL), etc. It's yet to pay off with a SGL for me, but it's still useful anyway. The Iroquois rock.
I was playing Sumer last night and triggered my GA via wonders... the weird part is *which* wonders.
Sumer = Ag/Sci.
Wonders built = Great Library (Sci, check), Sistine Chapel, Leonardo's, Knights Templar, and the Hanging Gardens... and upon HG completion, I entered my GA. In PTW the HG was Industrious. Is it now Agricultural too?
Sumer is ok, not great. I gotta try a Seafaring civ next. Maybe the Dutch (I've quickly fallen in love with Agricultural) or English, or Byzantines...
-Arrian
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