Scientific Leader - Page 3

Shogun Gunner · November 14, 2003, 12:08

Okay, I'm officially jealous of everyone that got a SGL -- I'm still empty handed in this area.

Arrian · November 14, 2003, 12:15

The probability is quite low, and my limited experience indicates it's very streaky (random, even

). In my first game, played out to the end of the medieval era, no leaders (of any kind). My second game, played into the mid-industrial, 3 SGLs (within the span of 5 techs in the medieval age) and about 6 MGLs. My third game, played into the mid-medieval, nada.

-Arrian

DrSpike · November 14, 2003, 12:20

A long while back someone posted a techie thread about the streakiness in supposedly random events with Civ3. I don't recall if it was discredited or not in the end.

Arrian · November 14, 2003, 12:53

I don't have *nearly* enough of a sample size to make an firm conclusions.

-Arrian

Shogun Gunner · November 14, 2003, 12:59

Quote:

Originally posted by DrSpike
A long while back someone posted a techie thread about the streakiness in supposedly random events with Civ3. I don't recall if it was discredited or not in the end.

I remember that thread... IIRC, to paraphrase many posters: an individual's experience was strongly linked to their perception which is an opinion, not mathematical fact. To be more blunt: You get a lot of success = probability works OR you experience a lot of failure = probability doesn't work.

For randomness not to work in Civ, there would have to be a fundamental breakdown in random number generations...one of the simplier things to program.

I'm sure someone is still going to argue this however

Stuie · November 14, 2003, 13:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner

Okay, I'm officially jealous of everyone that got a SGL -- I'm still empty handed in this area.

Me too, and I've been playing with the Byzantines.

We should start a support group.

Dominae · November 14, 2003, 14:15

The problem with that thread on streakiness (over at CFC, IIRC) was that it did not include any data. It's main argument was something like: "I'm an expert on this stuff, and from what I've observed by playing, the Civ3 RNG is streaky. When you start losing, stop attacking."

Dominae

lockstep · November 14, 2003, 14:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
In PTW the HG was Industrious. Is it now Agricultural too?

Yes - I checked the editor. In fact, the moment I heard about the new traits in Conquests I suspected the Hanging Gardens to be Agricultural.

And the Pyramids are Agr/Ind/Rel, which I don't like at all.

SirOsis · November 14, 2003, 14:47

Who volunteers to keep track of every battle, the units, type of terrain, hp, etc to test this out?

I don't have the patience for that. I don't really think there is a streak. Sure there are times when my units just get beat back when I think they should win but over the length of the game it happens to the AI sometimes too. Is that a streak or just something that is bound to happen due to the law of averages?

Arrian · November 14, 2003, 14:54

I shouldn't have used the word "streaky."

I was NOT trying to say that CivIII's RNG is screwy. In fact, to me, streakiness is just part of randomness.

-Arrian

Arrian · November 14, 2003, 14:57

Quote:

Originally posted by lockstep

Yes - I checked the editor. In fact, the moment I heard about the new traits in Conquests I suspected the Hanging Gardens to be Agricultural.

And the Pyramids are Agr/Ind/Rel, which I don't like at all.

Ah, thanks. Obviously, I should have checked myself the moment my GA triggered, but I got sidetracked. Luckily, my little empire was ready for a GA (in republic, many 7+ cities, FP built*).

-Arrian

* - though of course building it improved a couple of so-so cities to "core" and wrecked all the other so-so's.

Donegeal · November 17, 2003, 10:21

Ok, back on topic...

The chance of generating a SGL comes only from being the first to research a tech. I remember reading somewhere that the chances are cumulative. Meaning the first time you research a tech first you get a 3% chance of a SGL. The second time there is a 6% chance. The third is 9%. And so on. My question, if this is true, does the % reset after you generate a SGL, or does it just continue to climb until it reaches 100%?

Panag · November 17, 2003, 10:55

Quote:

Originally posted by donegeal
Ok, back on topic...

The chance of generating a SGL comes only from being the first to research a tech. I remember reading somewhere that the chances are cumulative. Meaning the first time you research a tech first you get a 3% chance of a SGL. The second time there is a 6% chance. The third is 9%. And so on. My question, if this is true, does the % reset after you generate a SGL, or does it just continue to climb until it reaches 100%?

hi ,

, and what ahppens if you where to get on the same turn a free tech and a new one that you have just researched , ......

on one tests conquests froze and a reboot was needed , .....

have a nice day

NaZ · November 17, 2003, 17:42

If you save your game before you discover a tech, and you have save random seed off, can you keep on re-loading to get a SGL, or do you just have to wait it out....?

vmxa1 · November 17, 2003, 19:46

You need to ask Fane7. Sorry I could not resist. I would imagine that you would have the same percentage each time to loaded it back up, so I would think that given enough tries it would work. That could be a lot of tries if this was the first time you beat everyone to a tech. Of course with RNG seed saved, it would never change.

Catt · November 17, 2003, 23:07

Quote:

Originally posted by donegeal
Ok, back on topic...

The chance of generating a SGL comes only from being the first to research a tech. I remember reading somewhere that the chances are cumulative. Meaning the first time you research a tech first you get a 3% chance of a SGL. The second time there is a 6% chance. The third is 9%. And so on. My question, if this is true, does the % reset after you generate a SGL, or does it just continue to climb until it reaches 100%?

I don't believe that this is true. I believe the chances remain at 3% and 5% for non-scientific and scientific civs, respectively, each time you are the first to discover/research a free tech.

Although a relatively unimportant question, I wonder if SGLs are limited to when you "research" an unknown tech versus "discover" an unknown tech; i.e., can the free tech from Philosophy / free tech from ToE / techs from huts generate an SGL?

Catt

vmxa1 · November 18, 2003, 00:13

I can't say for sure, but I suspect that tech gotten for age advancements won't count for SGL generation.

asleepathewheel · November 18, 2003, 00:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Catt

I don't believe that this is true. I believe the chances remain at 3% and 5% for non-scientific and scientific civs, respectively, each time you are the first to discover/research a free tech.

Although a relatively unimportant question, I wonder if SGLs are limited to when you "research" an unknown tech versus "discover" an unknown tech; i.e., can the free tech from Philosophy / free tech from ToE / techs from huts generate an SGL?

Catt

you know, I got a SGL just today when I learned philosophy/code of laws. Unfortunately I didn't catch which created him, will check for the save, probably won't ahve it. Used it to build zeus, which has saved my butt in my current game.

edit: damn, don't have it. Luckily the wonder date gave me an exact target, but no saves near the date.

Pyrkaige · November 18, 2003, 14:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Catt
Although a relatively unimportant question, I wonder if SGLs are limited to when you "research" an unknown tech versus "discover" an unknown tech; i.e., can the free tech from Philosophy / free tech from ToE / techs from huts generate an SGL?

You can certainly get an SGL from the free tech given at Philosophy; it happened a few games back to me. Presumably the same is true for ToE and any other "researched" tech (one where you choose which tech you're receiving.) Techs from huts are just given to you randomly and not researched, so there's a possibility that they don't work the same way. Time will tell...

Traelin · November 18, 2003, 16:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner

Okay, I'm officially jealous of everyone that got a SGL -- I'm still empty handed in this area.

Well don't feel bad Shogun, I haven't gotten one either.

EDIT: OK one quick OT question, sorry folks. Shogun, where is Potomac Falls? I used to live in Fairfax.

Shogun Gunner · November 19, 2003, 17:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Traelin

Well don't feel bad Shogun, I haven't gotten one either.

EDIT: OK one quick OT question, sorry folks. Shogun, where is Potomac Falls? I used to live in Fairfax.

Just across the Fairfax/Loudoun county line, along the Potomac River.

Stuie · November 21, 2003, 09:01

I got one!! I got one!!!

It took five epic games and a scenario (all with a decent tech lead by mid game) but I finally got a SGL. And yes, I rushed the Pyramids.

DrSpike · November 21, 2003, 09:08

5 Epic games already? It's only been out just over 2 weeks!

Stuie · November 21, 2003, 09:11

Quote:

Originally posted by DrSpike
5 Epic games already? It's only been out just over 2 weeks!

Yeah, well... I don't remember what my wife and kids look like, and I'm terribly deprived of sleep.

Shogun Gunner · November 22, 2003, 20:35

I just got two SGL's late in the game. I was already so far ahead...it didn't matter. It feels good to finally get one. I can relate, Stuie.

asleepathewheel · November 22, 2003, 21:43

I've gotten two in my current game. One with mathematics. Booyah, Zeus in like early in game! And one later (think invention) that I will use on Bach. (had prebuilds for leo's and sistine nearly finished)

but then I will go games without any, so...

MrWhereItsAt · November 23, 2003, 08:01

I have started three Epic Games so far, and got as far as early Medieval in two before deciding it was too easy and going back up to Monarch again ( I dropped to Regent for C3C to get used to the AI changes, expecting things to be tougher) for the third, which I am engrossed in now. I have got at least 2 SGLs by the mid Medieval time every time. Admittedly I have been in the tech lead for much of the game, but I can say I was first to only around 20 techs so far. I would not say, from my (again, admittedly

)limited playtime that SGLs are not rare if you put a slightly higher priority on research than normal.

Also, I have so far got 7 (!!!) MGLs in the same time. The last 500 years have been warmongering (as the Byzantines), but no more than usual in a PtW game, and I have seen far more MGLs than I have ever got. I don't know whether this means my tactics are getting better or whether MGLs are now more likely to appear. This would be a sensible change with the nerfing of their rushing ability - just wanted to check if anyone else has noticed these things, because there's no way I will ever have the time to play the number of games I would need to to see a decent sample size.

DSC · July 19, 2004, 01:12

Well.. technically a military leader CAN rush a great wonder (at least partway).. just use him to rush a palace (if you can, im not sure) or a small wonder, then switch over to the great wonder and it'll be at least 1/2 done.