Where is my elite unit

Snowflake · November 12, 2003, 04:48

I was playing my first transcend SP game (SMAC) and I admit that I've been playing too long so I must be out of my mind or something. But I've been at war with morgan and lal and uni is a submissive pactmate. I'm quite far ahead right now (2173 or something like that). A couple turns ago I noticed that I have got a elite 2-1-2 rover. I captured a morgan base, upgraded it to 5-1-2. Then when I rode it into the new captured base I noticed that it became commando. What happened? Am I seeing things?

Hippi · November 12, 2003, 14:25

yes you are.

or perhaps your social engineering moral has gone down? maybe the upgraded unit counts as a new one?

Lefty Scaevola · November 12, 2003, 14:33

Did you change its home base or change SE choices?

Snowflake · November 12, 2003, 15:15

I have not changed SE choice. But yes I changed its home base to the new base.

Ahh so that must be it? Why?

johndmuller · November 12, 2003, 16:00

You probably had a Creche in the previous home base and not in the new one. You are likely also running wealth (or something else with a negative morale effect); homing a unit to a base with a Creche will mitigate some of the morale hit caused by the negative morale modifier (and vice versa, as you discovered). (There could well be some fine points concerning when you built the unit versus when you started with the SE, but that is the way it works in general.) Creches also have significant morale benefits when defending in a base with a Creche (gotta protect those kids).

Lefty Scaevola · November 12, 2003, 16:22

It will go elite again when you build a crech in the new home base.

Adalbertus · November 13, 2003, 14:21

Johannes D. Müller probably got it. Basically, as soon as you can build creches, do so. Also for the growth bonus.

Snowflake · November 13, 2003, 14:36

So a creche is morale + 2? I thought it only adds to morale when you are defending the base.

Chaos Theory · November 13, 2003, 15:05

IIRC, creches give units built there a straight +1 to morale. Furthermore, when a unit is defending in a base with a creche, it gets a bonus to its morale equal to however many negative morale levels your morale SE setting grants (-1 level at -2 morale), plus one.

That means, that at -2 SE morale, an elite unit defending a base with a children's creche gets +2 morale levels, causing it to defend at +75%. An elite unit in -4 SE morale defends a base at +100% from morale!

I have probably gotten this slightly wrong, since I haven't carefully examined what effects creches have.

Adalbertus · November 13, 2003, 15:06

HongHu,

No, the effect of a creche is far more complicated, and I don't know the exact effects. Does anybody know if this has been researched already?
A creche does not give a +n morale modifier in the way a command centre etc. gives.

If you have a negative Morale SE setting, units supported by a base with creche have a morale level which is one higher than without. Without creche, you cannot have elite units with a (sufficiently) negative Morale, no matter how many battles you have won.

Units defending a base with creche, have some additional morale modifier (depending on SE Morale), the stuff which is indicated with "+" or "-" after the experience level (e. g. hardened++). This is basically one or more temporary "level" of the unit. hardened++ gets the same modifier as commando, namely 37.5%. However, there seem to be more things than creches which attribute to this stuff, but I don't know them.

RedFred · November 14, 2003, 16:46

And finally for completeness, just a reminder that the type of upgrade affects the experence level. If you globally upgrade via the design workshop rather than 'control u' you seem to have the effects of any previous battles wiped out.

johndmuller · November 14, 2003, 17:49

Quote:

Originally posted by RedFred
And finally for completeness, just a reminder that the type of upgrade affects the experence level. If you globally upgrade via the design workshop rather than 'control u' you seem to have the effects of any previous battles wiped out.

Well blow me down!
I understood that a "trained" unit would lose its training if it were upraded to an untrained unit in the DW, but I was unaware that other types of of morale boosts would also suffer - is that true of monolith upgrades too?

If you have the patience and the money to burn, a unit can be repeatedly upgraded to max out its morale; just upgrade to a trained unit in the DW, then to an untrained unit outside the DW, then trained in the DW, . . . Usually you can get to elite, but sometimes it is limited below that level, perhaps due to the initial morale of the unit. Most of the time, it is not worth doing this, especially if the unit has some advanced weapons or armor, but in the case of an independent unit, it might be worth it if you were in FM and wanted some wandering troops free of P-Drones. Also, if you build a trained shell unit and then upgrade it outside the DW, it will keep its training - this seems to be worth it if you want additional morale, as in when running wealth.

Snowflake · November 15, 2003, 02:53

ok now I got couple units that has (-)(++). I know this means temporary morale level change. But how did they pick up some negative and some positive level modifiers?

The ++ might be because the new creche I built but what about the -?

Chaos Theory · November 15, 2003, 15:35

If the unit's home city is in drone riots, the unit will get a (-). I don't know of any other way to get minuses, though soporific gas on an attacker will cost the defender two morale levels in combat.

Adalbertus · November 15, 2003, 17:15

Yes, soporific gas costs two morale levels. An otherwise umodified commando unit shows something like
"commando +12%" in the battle display when attacked by a soporific gas unit. There is no other indication.

Mongoose · November 17, 2003, 00:49

Quote:

Originally posted by RedFred
And finally for completeness, just a reminder that the type of upgrade affects the experence level. If you globally upgrade via the design workshop rather than 'control u' you seem to have the effects of any previous battles wiped out.

I am fairly certain that this statement is untrue. I am fairly certain that neither battlefield promotions nor monolith generated morale improvements are lost when upgrading, no matter the method of the upgrade.

Perhaps, RedFred, your experience involved the trained ability as well as combat derived promotions?

To reiterate what John said and to elaborate a bit... DW upgrading a trained unit loses the trained morale effect unless the design to which you upgrade also has the trained ability. Oddly enough, making the same upgrade on the map *ctrl-u* preserves the morale enhancement from the trained ability. The corollary is also true...a DW upgrade to a trained design GAINS the morale enhancement from training while ctrl-u to a trained design does not improve the morale of the unit.

Snowflake · November 17, 2003, 11:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
If the unit's home city is in drone riots, the unit will get a (-). I don't know of any other way to get minuses, though soporific gas on an attacker will cost the defender two morale levels in combat.

Ahh thanks. Yes the newly captured base was in riot because it didn't benefit from my HGP SP.

Yes I know, the first unit must be a super drone.

Thanks for all the clearifications and discussions on morale modifiers guys.

Adalbertus · November 18, 2003, 16:20

I never observed that DW upgrading from trained to non-trained degrades the unit. But this is because I never do this as I want to keep the trained shell design

RedFred · November 18, 2003, 16:34

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Mongoose
I am fairly certain that this statement is untrue. I am fairly certain that neither battlefield promotions nor monolith generated morale improvements are lost when upgrading, no matter the method of the upgrade.

Hmm. Seems like I'll have to go back and test before making any absolute pronouncements. I know for sure that I have lost elites through the mass upgrade of all units of a type, but never had the single unit upgrade go awry on me like in the example above.

Tau Ceti · November 20, 2003, 18:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Adalbertus
No, the effect of a creche is far more complicated, and I don't know the exact effects. Does anybody know if this has been researched already?

It has, both here and elsewhere. The search function does not seem to give me any results, but here is a thread from CGN which contains the essential information:

http://www.civgaming.net/forums/show...&threadid=1238

MrWhereItsAt · November 20, 2003, 23:08

This, is complex....

Mr. Harley · November 24, 2003, 04:40

Tau Ceti - thanks for the link. I thought I understood the Creche advantages, but there are some finer point that I definitely had missed. Great resource.