Cheating AI

Scottyb · November 12, 2003, 16:10

Is there ANY way you can stop the AI cheating - its not right. I dont see the point of working out a strategy, a way to play the game well, only for the computer to BLATANTLY cheat its whiley ass back into it.

You get the idea... Please help. I have Civ III and conquests but am ready to uninstall the lot.

Scottyb · November 12, 2003, 16:17

I just noticed - ther is another guy on here at the following thread here and this sums it all up really.

alva · November 12, 2003, 16:40

The AI doesn't cheat the way you think it does.

Scottyb · November 12, 2003, 17:24

How dows it cheat then...

Like this?

/*Wonders AI*/
If schmuck.current.Wonder <= 9 turns to complete
{
If current.ai.civ <= schmuck.current.civ
{
current.ai.civ.bigcity += schmuck.current.wonder;
}
}
/*Haha - Suckers*/

alva · November 12, 2003, 17:34

No, It doesn't.
It does get production advantages from monarch on.
On regent both you and the AI get none, on lower levels you get get the bonusses.
(this applies to trade aswell btw )

Scottyb · November 12, 2003, 18:08

Hmmm,
I usually play Regent, and do really well, i currently have a massive civ, technologically im the leader, but i can NEVER make wonders.

As soon as i get close (usually 9 turns away) the AI gets it, and to make matters worse, if there is another wonder to switch too, it usually gives another civ that one on the same turn. This leaves me with a mass of worthless shields.

Which means that i have to go war-mongering to get what i want.

And god knows how another CIV can keep up with me on the technology front (as they always do), as i have libraries and uni's in most of my cities.

So im just sitting here thinking - whats the point - no matter what i do i can't win by more than a couple of turns over a civ that can't possbly be up to my level - I still win, but - so what , i want to really win. And the only way you can do that in this game is to do it by force.

Boring.

alva · November 12, 2003, 18:16

Quote:

I still win, but - so what , i want to really win.

What's the point of winning without any competition.

Being a warmonger IS part of this game, trying to win by being a builder, however noble, is going to limit your capabilities.

You can always try a lower level if you want.
-
BTW:
Do you check F7 before you start building a wonder? Try investigating cities that build wonders etc.

Try using pre-builds/placeholders before you get the tech for the wonder you want etc.

In other words, be creative

Shogun Gunner · November 12, 2003, 18:29

Quote:

Originally posted by alva
Try using pre-builds/placeholders before you get the tech for the wonder you want etc.

I think the "pre-build" is the key here. It does get tougher on higher levels to beat the AI to wonder building...

However, it's not in this specific way that the AI cheats. Other threads cover the lack of AI "fog of war" that the AI seems to use to it's advantage. One commonly held belief is that the AI can see unguarded cities and then it knows to send troops to capture them.

vmxa1 · November 12, 2003, 18:52

The AI cheat is to "know" the tiles as if it was looking at the map in the editor. So it knows where coal is going to be from day one. It knows if you have an undefended city.
At levels of Mon and above it gets extra units to start and some other handicaps.

If you are not able to build wonders before the AI at regent after say the ancient age, then you need to look at how you are managing your empire. It is not hard to make a more productive wonder building city than the AI. Now with SGL, they can get a leader and bust your roll on a given wonder, but that should not be common.

Like Alva said, when you plan to start up a wonder, do F7 and see if anyone has it already under construction. It is to be expected that the AI will switch from its current wonder to another if that wonder is completed by anyone. This often triggers a rash of completions and if you are careless, you will be hold the bag or looking for the chair to sit in.

Look at your wonder building city. If is not ringed by mines, you have a problem. If it is not a size 12 and full before Hospitols, you got a problem.

Post a save and we can take a peek to if things could be done or you are in fact just getting robbed.

Outsider · November 12, 2003, 19:23

"One commonly held belief is that the AI can see unguarded cities and then it knows to send troops to capture them."

One can use this to his own advantage, of course.

Simply leave a city or three unguarded far enough back in your territory that the AI can't actually get to it (them) in one turn. It will often neglect to attack your units in preference for running a big pile of units towards the unguarded cities. Arrange it so you have some of your units in place to get passing shots at his as they go by, and also so that the troops he sends run out of movement points on unfavorable terrain. Whack, whack, whack, 40 chops with an axe, and his offensive potential is seriously weakened.

Scottyb · November 12, 2003, 19:35

Okay,
I havent been checking F7, or surrounding my city with mines... Not a good start i suppose. I have had my workers on Auto (Mistake?)

Included is a save (Conquests required) - i am the Persians (renamed the Scots

), and its 1665 - so its mid-game really.

Any help you can give me - maybe point out where im making mistakes would be great.

Im thinking of going warmongering - espesially against the Spanish - good idea? - might wait until right of passage is up.

Incidentally another thing which really annoys me is that i can tell another country to get off my land until im blue in the face and they will just keep on trying. Telling them to get off or declare war dosent help - they just relocate to the border then try again on the next stop - turn after turn - shot after shot. Why??

Outsider · November 12, 2003, 19:51

Because the computer is a relentless automaton. Usually it is trying to get to something on the other side of your territory (open land to found a city, or it is trying to get its troops over to another empire to attack it)

The best way I've found to prevent those annoying, repeated border incursions is to pick a narrow spot and line units up solidly across it (1 per square) such that the computer can't trace a path through my territory to whatever it wants to get to on the other side. If it cant find an unblocked path, it doesnt bother sending units down the first few steps.

It is a not so bad use for captured workers (the half efficiency ones) if you're not short workers but are tired of clicking on SO MANY of them to get anything done.

alva · November 12, 2003, 20:55

Quote:

I have had my workers on Auto (Mistake?)

Actually this the biggest mistake one can make (and aotu-gouvernor)
You really need to learn worker actions, this is the basic concept for CiV, good worker actions are a deffinate must!!!

Shogun Gunner · November 12, 2003, 21:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Outsider
"One commonly held belief is that the AI can see unguarded cities and then it knows to send troops to capture them."

One can use this to his own advantage, of course.

Simply leave a city or three unguarded far enough back in your territory that the AI can't actually get to it (them) in one turn. It will often neglect to attack your units in preference for running a big pile of units towards the unguarded cities. Arrange it so you have some of your units in place to get passing shots at his as they go by, and also so that the troops he sends run out of movement points on unfavorable terrain. Whack, whack, whack, 40 chops with an axe, and his offensive potential is seriously weakened.

Yes, a common small unit tactic to lure the enemy into a kill zone. It doesn't seem quite right to do that on a scale like C3C... well, my opinion at least....

I agree, the tactic works. Did it last night!

Catt · November 13, 2003, 02:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Scottyb
Is there ANY way you can stop the AI cheating - its not right. I dont see the point of working out a strategy, a way to play the game well, only for the computer to BLATANTLY cheat its whiley ass back into it.

I was ready to politely correct your perception and state that the AI doesn't cheat the way you think it does; wait for yuor inevitable rejoinder; and then bow out of the discussion as a frustrating way to spend my time. But instead you responded to others with:

Quote:

Originally posted by Scottyb
Okay,
I havent been checking F7, or surrounding my city with mines... Not a good start i suppose. I have had my workers on Auto (Mistake?)

Included is a save (Conquests required) - i am the Persians (renamed the Scots), and its 1665 - so its mid-game really.

Any help you can give me - maybe point out where im making mistakes would be great.

So you are willing to look for other explanations to your frustrations than a cheating AI.

There is a lot of excellent information available here. Please spend some time here in the General and in the Strategy forums, and look to the topped threads. Lots of solid information to soak up.

I downloaded your game to have a look. Without trying to tackle everything, let me offer some broad advice and a specific exmaple as well (and it's all worth what you piad for it, which is to say nothing

).

First, automating workers is a bad idea generally. You can do a much better job of using workers if you understand the game factors at play and also control them yourself.

Second, on first glance you seem to have too much irrigation and not enough mines (you heard this in prior posts). The effects of this may contribute to your losing wonders to the AI by a few turns.

Third, you have too many defenders, especially in interior cities. It's all good and well to have several defenders in border cities -- and your border cities include coastal cities since you're at war with the Vikings and they are not afraid to use Berserks to amphibiously attack your settlements -- but having 5 or 6 defenders in internal cities that cannot be attacked in one turn just means that you are paying unit upkeep on units doing nothgin for you (if you prss F1 you'll see you pay 100+ gold per turn for units, an awful lot when you're only paying 200+ towards science research).

Fourth, consider changing your preferences (CTRL-P) to activate the option "Always wait at end of turn" -- this means the game will wait for you to hit the spacebar to go to the next trun, allowing you to look at cities, units, etc. with whatever thought process you'd like to indulge, without the game moving on to the next turn before you're ready.

Fifth: Trade! Look for opportunities to trade your excess luxuries and evn excess strategic resources to other civs for your advantage.

Okay, broad advice over -- some specific advice directed at your first complaint (losing a wonder by 9 turns).

Trade axtra supply of horses to Spain for Furs. Trade extra supply of Dyes and 3 gpt to Hittites for Furs. The two new luxuries from the trades mean that you no longer need any entertainers in your cities (you could also do a wide variety of trades, including getting all available techs, if you are willing to forgo your sole supply of saltpeter).

Glasgow is building JS Bachs, with 41 turns to go. Aberdeen is a potentially more powerful wonder-city: it has more shields available (if the terrain is improved) and isn't the capitol (meaning it can use the palace pre-build tactic / exploit). On turn 1 (1665 AD) three slave workers leave Stenhousemuir and move to the irrigated plains to the west and begin to build a mine over the irrigation. A native worker and a slave move southeast from Falkirk two squares and begin to mine the irrigated tile. Glasgow switches its production from JS Bachs to university, wasting 70 shields. Abrdeen starts building JS Bachs with 37 turns to go. Completion of Wonder: shortened by 4 turns.

A shot of Aberdeen at turn one (taken before the trades -- the city has 2 extra food, will grow in two turns, and the trades will put the entertainer back to work, producing more food meaing it will grow next turn).

Catt

Catt · November 13, 2003, 02:43

The two separate worker groups toil away at mines. Several other workers start mining tiles near Inverness which has two cows nearby, menaing it has extra food and could stand more mines.

At the beginning of turn 2, two new mines around Aberdeen are completed. The two different worker groups converge in an irrigated tile between the two newly mined tiles, allowing a third tile to be mined by the end of turn 2. With the entertainer in Aberdeen put to work and three new mines the Wonder completion time has dropped to 31 turns even though in your save it would still have 39 turns to go.

A screenshot at this point.

Catt

Catt · November 13, 2003, 02:46

Turn three allows the newly formed "miners group" of workers to mine another irrigated tile. The Wonder Completion time only drops to 29 from 31, but still better than the 38 turns in your original save.

Catt

dexters · November 13, 2003, 02:47

nice work catt.

Catt · November 13, 2003, 02:51

The worker group mines an irrigated bonus grassland before moving off to the next city. Aberdeen is now only 26 turns from JS Bachs. In your original save, JS Bachs would be 37 turns away (down from 41 turns originally); in other words, wonder completion time had been improved by 11 turns from your original save. I have no idea whether or not you'll be the first to JS Bachs, but I hope this one small example highlights how important looking at all your options can be.

Catt

vmxa1 · November 13, 2003, 03:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Scottyb
Incidentally another thing which really annoys me is that i can tell another country to get off my land until im blue in the face and they will just keep on trying. Telling them to get off or declare war dosent help - they just relocate to the border then try again on the next stop - turn after turn - shot after shot. Why??

The main reason they will do that is they percieve you as weak. If you look at F3 and it say comapred to them we are weak, that is the problem. If it does not say that then, check to see if they are at war with someone on the other side of your empire. If they are they will want to come through anyway. If they do not come with settlers, I often let them go. No settlers, if I want the land they are headed towards.

vmxa1 · November 13, 2003, 03:28

I see Catt has done the honors, so no need for me to look at the game. I have absolute confidence in his skills.

You may want to peek at the link for Crackers opening moves. It in in teh strat section in the must rad topped thread. It explains how key it is to manage your workers and save moves and improve the best tiles first. Avoid things like working on hills until you have nothing better the worker could be doing.

Scottyb · November 13, 2003, 06:21

Catt,
Thank you very much, i can see a good few more lost nights approaching, and to the rest of you guys as well.

I will try your suggestiuons and let you know, and hey - i want to learn, but jeez this game can get the better of my frustration tolerances sometimes.

After i posted last night - i wanted to try a few things with workers, and so set up a tiny map with the idea of getting my starting moves off the ground and learning more about the worth of tiles and what happens when irrigated and roads are built by manually ordered workers.

Im sure you can just clear this up with a simple answer, but I noticed that in the pedia, it mentions that a grassland square with rock will produce 2 food normally and then 1 extra food if irrigated. Likewise 1 extra commerce if a road is built (sorry doing this from memory as im at work so correct me if im wrong.), however what i find is that, at least under despotism, an irrigated grassland square still produces 2 food units even after irrigation.

Is that right, or is the pedia wrong?

Tiberius · November 13, 2003, 07:21

No, the pedia is not wrong. This is the despotism penalty. This is why there is no point in irrigating while in despotism (except for floodplains, wheat and cattle).

Likewise there is no point in building mines on plains with cattle, because the despotism penalty will deprive you from the bonus shield.

When you will change government the food bonus will appear.

alva · November 13, 2003, 07:27

No, it is right, however , and you say so yourself and I quote :
"however what i find is that, at least under despotism, an irrigated .."
despostism will penalise you on certain tiles/improvements. Look at the Goverment part of the Pedia for more info.

in short: Sometimes you won't get a shield or a food that you will get under other forms of goverment

Grim Legacy · November 13, 2003, 08:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Outsider
Because the computer is a relentless automaton. Usually it is trying to get to something on the other side of your territory (open land to found a city, or it is trying to get its troops over to another empire to attack it)

The best way I've found to prevent those annoying, repeated border incursions is to pick a narrow spot and line units up solidly across it (1 per square) such that the computer can't trace a path through my territory to whatever it wants to get to on the other side. If it cant find an unblocked path, it doesnt bother sending units down the first few steps.

It is a not so bad use for captured workers (the half efficiency ones) if you're not short workers but are tired of clicking on SO MANY of them to get anything done.

Funny- your posts sum up exactly what I found out to be a very helpful sort of 'semi-exploit' tactics.

I stumbled upon the "AI is lured to undefended cities" thing when I was so strapped for defensive units on my frontline that I left a few cities in safer territories unguarded. Next turn I immediately noticed the opponent doesn't launch as much as a single strike against my fielded units, nor against his former cities that I had just taken over, but instead gallops further into my lands in the vain hope of getting to those 'free' cities. Very convenient.
Things were similarly affected with the "unit-border" you described as well. The computer sees its simple trajectory cut off and just abandons the idea of moving on. I initially expected some tension- maybe the computer would move about feverishly in front of my units or perhaps it would be very tempted to launch a sneak attack, but nothing of the sort. Makes you realize it's still a computer you're playing.

Catt · November 13, 2003, 12:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Scottyb
I want to learn, but jeez this game can get the better of my frustration tolerances sometimes.

You can spend an awful lot of of time - time well spent - reading through the "Must Read" threads compiled by Theseus, located in the Strategy forum, and found by clicking HERE.

(Just remember that some of those threads were written a long time ago, and subsequent patches / changes in the game may have made specific tactics or strategies obsolete or at least less effective).

Catt

MINNJPN · November 13, 2003, 16:08

The AI does have some inherent advantages at higher levels, so take advantage of what you can. You can pick your opposition so make yourself the only regligious civ. This affords you the opportunity to research Mysticism 1st. Don't trade Ceremonial Burial untill you have a 8-10 turn lead with Mysticism, trying to obtain Bronze Working so your Warriors are not over-run. Repeat with Polytheism, and at least you will have 2 tech discoveries, and a small chance at a SGL. You could also play as the Carts, do starts untill you find one with Ivory nearby, research Mathematics 1st, the build the Statue of Zeus and get Ancient Calv. every 5 turns for free-they can make a big difference in early warfare.

vmxa1 · November 13, 2003, 17:19

Scottyb, do you have the free CD that came with some orders? If so, IIRC, it has a strat guide that talks about the use of tile improvements. If not check out Crackers :

http://www.civfanatics.com/doc/civ3/...arts/index.htm

Kuciwalker · November 14, 2003, 00:05

Quote:

Originally posted by alva

Quote:

I have had my workers on Auto (Mistake?)

Actually this the biggest mistake one can make (and aotu-gouvernor)
You really need to learn worker actions, this is the basic concept for CiV, good worker actions are a deffinate must!!!

I have to second this. Plus, it is just PAINFUL to watch the AI try and manage workers.

Tiberius · November 14, 2003, 02:52

However, to give a bit of relief to Scottyb

: you can automate your workers once most your improvements are done (irrigations, mines, all luxuries and resources connected, essential railroad lines built) and let the AI do the rest of the job (railroad all tiles, clean pollution).
You must of course keep a few workers not automated, for important tasks, such as improving new cities, building fortresses, building supply lines for your armies, etc.