November 19, 2003, 00:20
|
#181
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 08:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
|
The only arguments of any worth here are Dinodoc's.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
|
|
|
|
|
November 19, 2003, 02:10
|
#182
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 07:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
|
__________________
Rosbifs are destructive scum- Spiffor
I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
If government is big enough to give you everything you want, it is also big enough to take everything you have. - Gerald Ford
Blackwidow24 and FemmeAdonis fan club
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 19, 2003, 03:46
|
#183
|
|
Settler
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Seeing as that is his main ultimate goal, I think democratising the ME is something he is definetly interested in.
|
Oh please, stop pushing that bullshit to the poor souls of Apolyton.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 19, 2003, 06:06
|
#184
|
|
OTF Moderator
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Park Avenue No-one ever claimed that the probability of a successful threat would be reduced to 0%.
In fact, I'd love it to happen. It'd get rid of a fair few of the whinging cowards on our great island.
|
I obviously missed the bit where you volunteered to fight to defend your country. Easy for you to send our troops into battle from your cozy drunken student house isn't it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 19, 2003, 08:07
|
#185
|
|
Prince
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: and the revolution
Posts: 555
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by MikeH
I obviously missed the bit where you volunteered to fight to defend your country. Easy for you to send our troops into battle from your cozy drunken student house isn't it.
|
touché.
praising water and drinking wine.
and branding those as cowards who prefer acting to their beliefs. 
__________________
justice is might
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 19, 2003, 09:03
|
#186
|
|
Prince
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Colombo
Posts: 310
|
Tripledoc,
"All hindi's hate muslims"
Do they really ?? first off, they are Hindu's not Hindi's (Hindi is the language many people in India speak).
Secondly, they are human beings, and are subject to the the same wonderful diversity as all other groups.
Finally, Many Hindu's regularly attend Church, Mosque, Temple and Gurudwara's .. unlike almost any other religion on earth .. if you took the time to go to India and meet the people you speak for, you'd discover the culture in India is accepting of almost all religeous ideology (even if it contradicts) .. What they don't accept (and nor does any other religious person worth their salt) is violence to acheive a goal .. Gandhi should be a role model for all who are oppressed.
Of course there are bad in all society .. but that does not mean ALL society is bad.
__________________
"Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 19, 2003, 09:22
|
#187
|
|
Chieftain
Local Time: 12:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 55
|
I have never read or heard of a Hindu who did not hate Muslims. Except Ahrundati Roy, a Communist, but remarkably sane.
Why if you are so accepting of other religions do you allow for the burning down of mosques and the massacre of Muslims? All instigated by Hindu-nationalist politicians. Why were these politicians not punished? Is India not a Democracy where there is rule of law?
It does from the outside look as if a large part of the Indian political elite accepts the occasional anti-muslim massacre just to give the poor rabble something to divert their attention from.
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 19, 2003, 10:07
|
#188
|
|
Emperor
Local Time: 07:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Fear and Oil
Posts: 5,892
|
That's bullshit. Most Hindus don't hate Moslems, just as the converse is true. Just because there have been Hindu fundamentalists in control of the Gujurati gov't, doesn't mean all Hindus are intolerant. And to India's credit, it did a decent job of investigating the matter.
And yes, the Indian gov't unforunately turns blind eye to persecution of Moslems far too often, but then again, the gov't in Bangladesh for instance (another democracy with rule of law), has been turning a blind eye towards persecution of Hindus far too often.
__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 19, 2003, 10:12
|
#189
|
|
OTF Moderator
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
|
"I have never read or heard of a Hindu who did not hate Muslims."
I've met some.
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 19, 2003, 10:14
|
#190
|
|
Emperor
Local Time: 07:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The cities of Orly and Nowai
Posts: 4,228
|
this is going to go over well with the working class...
http://www.thisislondon.com/news/bus...les/timid70616
__________________
B♭3
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 19, 2003, 10:32
|
#191
|
|
Chieftain
Local Time: 12:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 55
|
Looks like Bush is giving the infamous 'kiss of death' to his old 'buddy'.
Withe allies like that who would need enemies?
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 19, 2003, 10:53
|
#192
|
|
OTF Moderator
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
|
Imagine how much the US would have screwed us over if we hadn't supported them over Iraq?
Thanks!
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 19, 2003, 11:46
|
#193
|
|
Settler
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
|
As much as the poor French, I presume.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 19, 2003, 12:25
|
#194
|
|
King
Local Time: 06:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
Posts: 1,285
|
Bush delivered an absolutely beautiful and amazing speech today durting his visit to England, at Whitehall Palace . 
There are so many great quotes, I don't where to even begin but you can read the full transcript here:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,103514,00.html
__________________
'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 19, 2003, 12:33
|
#195
|
|
OTF Moderator
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
|
It was a good speech. My compliments to his Speechwriters for finding so many excellent Brits to mention. 
|
Quote:
|
|
Secretary Straw and Secretary Hoon, Admiral Colbold (ph) and Dr. Shipman (ph)
|
Interesting that Britains most prolific serial killer was there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 20, 2003, 09:31
|
#196
|
|
Emperor
Local Time: 07:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The cities of Orly and Nowai
Posts: 4,228
|
__________________
B♭3
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 20, 2003, 11:16
|
#197
|
|
Settler
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
|
If the report is correct I have to thank Mr Perle for ending the silly charade.
And for sparing me the annoyance of high school kiddies arguing international law. 
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 20, 2003, 11:29
|
#198
|
|
King
Local Time: 06:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
Posts: 1,285
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
If the report is correct I have to thank Mr Perle for ending the silly charade.
And for sparing me the annoyance of high school kiddies arguing international law.
|
If Perle is right, and the choice was between respecting international law or doing the moral thing, what would you have done? I'd have done the moral thing and the heck with international law!
__________________
'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 20, 2003, 11:31
|
#199
|
|
Settler
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
|
Of course morality and law can conflict. And of yourse Perle is wrong about this war being right in any way. But what's your point?
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 20, 2003, 11:36
|
#200
|
|
King
Local Time: 06:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
Posts: 1,285
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Of course morality and law can conflict. And of yourse Perle is wrong about this war being right in any way. But what's your point?
|
My point is that people should stop being so uptight about international law. The important thing is to do the right thing, and the moral thing.
In this case, the war was the moral thing to do, so who cares that it may or may not have been legal?
__________________
'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 20, 2003, 11:37
|
#201
|
|
Emperor
Local Time: 07:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The cities of Orly and Nowai
Posts: 4,228
|
(opens bag of popcorn.)
__________________
B♭3
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 20, 2003, 11:40
|
#202
|
|
Settler
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by The diplomat
My point is that people should stop being so uptight about international law. The important thing is to do the right thing, and the moral thing.
In this case, the war was the moral thing to do, so who cares that it may or may not have been legal?
|
The war was immoral and stupid, but that's not the issue. The relevance of international law isn't the issue either.
I said all along that this war was a blatant violation of international law. And if the report is correct, then people may stop buying the silly pretenses and pseudo-arguments that have been floating around. How you judge that illegality on a moral level is another issue. Can your brain digest that?
Now pass me some popcorn, please.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 20, 2003, 11:51
|
#203
|
|
Emperor
Local Time: 07:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The cities of Orly and Nowai
Posts: 4,228
|
here you go. watching the two sides just go at it is quite amusing.
__________________
B♭3
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 20, 2003, 12:02
|
#204
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 20:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
|
Yowzers! Who needs enemies when your ally stabs you in the back? 
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 20, 2003, 12:03
|
#205
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 07:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
|
|
Quote:
|
|
The UN secretary general, Kofi Annan, has questioned that justification, arguing that the security council would have to rule on whether the US and its allies were under imminent threat.
|
I call BS on that point.
__________________
Rosbifs are destructive scum- Spiffor
I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
If government is big enough to give you everything you want, it is also big enough to take everything you have. - Gerald Ford
Blackwidow24 and FemmeAdonis fan club
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 20, 2003, 12:15
|
#206
|
|
King
Local Time: 06:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
Posts: 1,285
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
The war was immoral and stupid, but that's not the issue.
|
Iraqis were being tortured and raped in front of their children or parents. Ending that kind of oppression is immoral?  So, I guess it is moral to sit by and watch innocent people die???
Liberating innocent people from oppression is moral. The war did liberate them from Saddam's tyranny, therefore the war was moral.
|
Quote:
|
|
The relevance of international law isn't the issue either.
|
So, the morality of the war is not the issue, and the relevance of international war is not the issue, then what is? What are we talking about?
|
Quote:
|
|
I said all along that this war was a blatant violation of international law.
|
And I am trying to say to you, that if international law means neglecting innocent lives and letting them die under terrible oppression, then I will gladly violate international law.
Sure, we should honor international law, but not if it means being immoral and ignoring suffering.
In this case, the war was neccessary and moral, both to liberate Iraqis from terrible opression and to secure our national security.
If international law means allowing innocent people to die and to neglect your national security, then I don't want it!
__________________
'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 20, 2003, 12:18
|
#207
|
|
OTF Moderator
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
|
Diplomat, you'd better get busy, there are a lot more countries you need to invade to stop that kind of thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 20, 2003, 12:20
|
#208
|
|
Settler
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by The diplomat
And I am trying to say to you, that if international law means neglecting innocent lives and letting them die under terrible oppression, then I will gladly violate international law.
|
And I told you that's another issue. My point is that the war was illegal. Make of that what you want. Now, why don't you continue this discussion with that wall over there? I'm getting bored.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 20, 2003, 12:20
|
#209
|
|
Deity
Local Time: 07:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by The diplomat
If international law means allowing innocent people to die and to neglect your national security, then I don't want it!
|
Had Bush only adjusted the invasion timetable about a 1 month we would have had both morality and the UN on our side. However, I do question the national security as pect of your statement.
|
|
|
|
|
|
November 20, 2003, 12:22
|
#210
|
|
OTF Moderator
Local Time: 13:37
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ming on rakastajani
Posts: 7,511
|
Isn't breaking the law immoral?
|
|
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is On
|
|
|
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:37.
|
|
