Is communism legal in the US?

VetLegion · November 17, 2003, 15:10

I am not from USA so forgive my ignorance on the matter.

I know that theoretically, Constitution of the USA guarantees everyone freedom of belief.

What is confusing me is that I learned that during the cold war, not sure of the year, senator McCarthy of the US Senate conducted investigations with the intention of exposing communists.

I have a few questions coming from that.

1. Was communism illegal during the cold war?

2. If it was, how was the law that outlawed it compliant with the Constitution?

3. What were the consequences for people found to be communists by McCarthy?

4. Is communism legal in the USA nowadays? Can you run for office as a communist?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Sarxis · November 17, 2003, 15:39

Conspiracy against the government isn't legal, and I'd suppose that communism assumes the overthrow of any current democratic form of government.

Unless you are think of 'pure' communism, which to my limited knowledge, deals more with the economic side of things.

VetLegion · November 17, 2003, 15:44

Libertarians want to abolish the state altogether and they are legal. So that doesn't sound convincing.

JohnT · November 17, 2003, 15:45

1. Was communism illegal during the cold war?

Believing in it was not illegal per se, but belonging to groups that were identified as Communist could get you in trouble as the law.

2. If it was, how was the law that outlawed it compliant with the Constitution?

"National Security" is quite a big blanket that covers a lot of abuses - people from Lincoln to Dubya have used it to violate the spirit and the word of the Constitution.

3. What were the consequences for people found to be communists by McCarthy?

Some jail time, loss of income in ones major profession were the worst results ("blacklisting" is where an entire profession openly refuses to work with a person or list of people), however the ostracization and other societal penalties in many times were more overbearing and painful than any civil judgements.

4. Is communism legal in the USA nowadays? Can you run for office as a communist?

Yes, and yes. People have been running as socialists, communists, and whatever bizarre idea you can think of for quite awhile. However, the US is a Republic which means that you have to convince each individual state to put you on their ballot - there is no National Election Board that standardizes the process. This is the problem with getting true third party representation - you have to draw up 50 petitions, all of them with their own set of rules, in order to have your party qualify to get on the ballot.

The McCarthy episodes were a shameful period in America history, no doubt about it. Regardless of how things turned out in the Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, etc., "Communism" should've been been treated as any other idea or ideology - one that stands or falls on it's own merits, both real world and theoretical.

Jac de Molay · November 17, 2003, 15:45

Edit Nevermind

Sarxis · November 17, 2003, 15:47

Quote:

Originally posted by VetLegion
Libertarians want to abolish the state altogether ...

Modern-day Hippies; of course they aren't taken seriously.

JohnT · November 17, 2003, 15:50

Btw, I'm not too sure that it is illegal for any one State to go Communist - the Peoples Republik of Kolorado, for example, as long as all legal and contractual obligations remain in effect (i.e., they don't secede from the union, they still pay taxes, they don't "nationalize" industries owned by companies in other states, crap like that).

Kidicious · November 17, 2003, 16:00

Quote:

Originally posted by VetLegion
1. Was communism illegal during the cold war?

The Cold War was kind of like the War on Terrorism. The right wing seems to like to be at war at times to attack their political opponents. They justify denying constitutional rights because they weigh constitutional rights against needs for national defense. Unfortunately this has occured too many times through out our history, and the left is quite sick of it.

Kidicious · November 17, 2003, 16:03

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnT
Btw, I'm not too sure that it is illegal for any one State to go Communist - the Peoples Republik of Kolorado, for example, as long as all legal and contractual obligations remain in effect (i.e., they don't secede from the union, they still pay taxes, they don't "nationalize" industries owned by companies in other states, crap like that).

It's legal to take property from citizens as long as you compensate them for it and it is in the interest of the government and it serves the people as a whole.

Lefty Scaevola · November 17, 2003, 16:03

communism is lawful.
working toward violent overthrow of the goverment is not.
You are ok if you keep the latter out of the former, just like right wing groups have to do.

The Templar · November 17, 2003, 16:21

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnT
Btw, I'm not too sure that it is illegal for any one State to go Communist - the Peoples Republik of Kolorado, for example, as long as all legal and contractual obligations remain in effect (i.e., they don't secede from the union, they still pay taxes, they don't "nationalize" industries owned by companies in other states, crap like that).

Here's an idea - a how-to kit for those of you out their running (or planning to run) a state.

Say you want the Peoples' Republic of Louisiana -
(1) nationalize everything and breach all contracts
(2) issue state bonds to pay for it all
(3) default on the bonds

Louisiana state law allows for the state to default, and the US Supreme Court case Hans v. Louisiana and the 11th amendment prevent anyone from suing the state for the money owed on the bonds.

Voila! Instant communism in a state. Let me know if anyone out there gets this to work.

lord of the mark · November 17, 2003, 16:36

The law youre talking about , making it illegal to belong to an organization calling for the overthrow of the govt, was called the Smith Act.

Interestingly it was SUPPORTED by the Communist Party of the US at the time it was passed, IIRC. It was passed during WW2, for use against Trotskyites who were opposing the war effort. The Stalinist CPUSA, which supported the war effort, was eager to see the Trotskyites persecuted.

lord of the mark · November 17, 2003, 16:40

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnT
3. What were the consequences for people found to be communists by McCarthy?

Some jail time, loss of income in ones major profession were the worst results ("blacklisting" is where an entire profession openly refuses to work with a person or list of people), however the ostracization and other societal penalties in many times were more overbearing and painful than any civil judgements.

Do you know of anyone who was actually jailed as a result of being found a communist by the McCarthy commitee?

most people who lost jobs were govt employees, ISTR> the largest case of people in the private sector losing jobs was in the movie industry - that was connected with the House comm on Unamerican activities, not McCarthy, IIRC. And it was the studios that enforced it, not the members of the professions, who generally disliked the blacklist. In fact the person who was most completely "ostracized" socially due to the blacklist, was Elia Kazan, who named names for the HUAC.

DinoDoc · November 17, 2003, 16:46

Quote:

Is communism legal in the US?

Of course we just put them in zoos for people to marvel at something so odd and rare as a communist.

Nubclear · November 17, 2003, 17:40

But how can you when there are sooo many evil communists in the US?
Such as Wesely Clark

DinoDoc · November 17, 2003, 17:42

How did you get out of your cage?

Imran Siddiqui · November 17, 2003, 17:48

Quote:

US Supreme Court case Hans v. Louisiana and the 11th amendment prevent anyone from suing the state for the money owed on the bonds.

Not entirely 100% true. The 11th prevents anyone from suing an 'uncooperative' state. IF the state passes a law saying that it can be sued for money owed on bonds (why would they do that, because the constitutents may get pissed and vote the suckers out who voted against... many states do allow you to sue the state for things such as bonds).

Do you really want to be known as a Communist state which doesn't allow the people to have rights against it? Isn't that not 'true' communism or something.

Nubclear · November 17, 2003, 18:07

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
How did you get out of your cage?

I have contacts on the inside

DanS · November 17, 2003, 18:58

It's legal to be both a communist personally and to be part of a group of communists. Always has been.

The Communist Control Act in 1954 required communist party members to register, and placed certain restrictions on them, but those provisions were mostly overturned by the Supreme Court in the 1960s, AFAIK.

Of course, the law won't really protect you from what your neighbors think about your communism and won't protect you from fearmongering politicians who have the power to haul you before a Senate committee to testify (although it will protect you from having to answer the questions).

DanS · November 17, 2003, 19:07

Re the consequences of McCarthyism directly flowing from the state, I think about 400 were jailed for a short period and about 10,000 civil servants lost their jobs.

Q Classic · November 17, 2003, 19:44

yes, now go to cuba you pinko scum!

VetLegion · November 17, 2003, 20:15

Thanks for the replies guys.

QCubed, I already live in an ex-commie heaven

Quote:

I think about 400 were jailed for a short period and about 10,000 civil servants lost their jobs.

A big job loss. And all of it legal? Strange.

And since I am already asking, how come American proleteriat never rushed into the arms of mother Socialist or Communist party?

Shi Huangdi · November 17, 2003, 21:27

It's legal to hold any beliefs. It can get you in trouble however, to join an organization dedicated to the violent overthrow of the government.

Q Classic · November 17, 2003, 21:39

communism is legal, though it's been somewhat unfashionable since the mccarthy era.

Ned · November 17, 2003, 21:57

I would argue that no, it is not possible to have a Communist state in the United States. Even if a state could successfully nationalize all industry within its borders, it could not legally prevent companies located outside the state from conducting business in the state. Nor could it prevent its citizens from moving across its borders to adjacent states to conduct business, such as banking, etc. And, most importantly, it cannot prevent its citizens from moving out on the state. If one thinks about it, this alone will cause a collapse of any Communist state.

There's another issue, and that is that the Constitution guarantees a Republican form of government to each state. In my understanding that communism is a single party form of the government that clearly would be illegal under this clause of the Constitution.

Finally, the Constitution protects "liberty" which includes the right to contract. To the extent that a Communist state would prevent one of its citizens from contracting with people within or without its borders to form new businesses that may even compete with nationalized businesses, this would seemingly be a violation of this constitutional right.

Datajack Franit · November 17, 2003, 22:08

Ask the Rosenbergs then tell me

St Leo · November 17, 2003, 22:27

Quote:

Originally posted by VetLegion
And since I am already asking, how come American proleteriat never rushed into the arms of mother Socialist or Communist party?

They were too busy keeping blackies down back when communism was fashionable and populist.

DanS · November 17, 2003, 23:57

Quote:

A big job loss. And all of it legal? Strange.

Why strange? Communism was a real enemy and it would make sense to protect the government from infiltration.

Quote:

And since I am already asking, how come American proleteriat never rushed into the arms of mother Socialist or Communist party?

There were lots of little reasons that made the people not well disposed towards communism. The primary reason was that a lot of bread was being buttered by capitalism. No need to change under the circumstances.

SnowFire · November 18, 2003, 00:11

Concerning McCarthyism, it should also be noted that perjury has always been illegal as well. Put somebody on the stand and ask them if they're a communist; if they say "I refuse to answer" we all know what they really mean (and people can ignore/fire/etc. them), and if they say no, if you can prove that they actually were members, now they HAVE committed a crime. IIRC, Alger Hiss was nailed on perjury, not espionage.

The Templar · November 18, 2003, 00:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Ned
I would argue that no, it is not possible to have a Communist state in the United States.

All right, let's give it a look.

Quote:

Even if a state could successfully nationalize all industry within its borders, it could not legally prevent companies located outside the state from conducting business in the state.

Not a bad argument at all - there would certainly be dormant commerce clause problems. The state would have to arrange its intrastate regulations such that they did not discriminate against out-of-state business. And even then the courts might not allow it.

Quote:

Nor could it prevent its citizens from moving across its borders to adjacent states to conduct business, such as banking, etc. And, most importantly, it cannot prevent its citizens from moving out on the state. If one thinks about it, this alone will cause a collapse of any Communist state.

Cute, but I would remind you that thousands of Americans defected to the Soviet Union during the depression.

Quote:

There's another issue, and that is that the Constitution guarantees a Republican form of government to each state. In my understanding that communism is a single party form of the government that clearly would be illegal under this clause of the Constitution.

That means you would need a communist system with multiple parties.

Quote:

Finally, the Constitution protects "liberty" which includes the right to contract. To the extent that a Communist state would prevent one of its citizens from contracting with people within or without its borders to form new businesses that may even compete with nationalized businesses, this would seemingly be a violation of this constitutional right.

So-called freedom to contract has always been tightly constrained (yes, even during the Lockner era). Lockner was the height of freedom to contract unless you were a union - apparently freedom to contract did not extend to freedom of workers to contract together for their mutual benefit. But I digress, even the Lockner decision provided that the states have a power to limit contracts for the public good. So you can't contract for prostitution for instance.

Also note that the Constitution says nothing about freedom of contract. The constitution only says that states may not impair the obligation of contracts. Thus the state breaches all contracts, pays compensation out of its bonds, and then defaults as above.