Express Path to Republic in C3C - Page 2

Yahweh Sabaoth · November 21, 2003, 14:45

Dominae: I see your point about the map generator... but as agricultural gives half-priced aqueducts and hospitals (right?), people might still look at those and be tempted to play even if the start position is not optimal, right? Because people playing in a non-optimal start position are playing for a challenge, which they consider fun (whereas people like me just don't want their behinds to get kicked right off the bat and tend to reload, regardless of traits)

As far as I can tell, agricultural isn't the be-all-end-all trait. It's nice, but I think Industrious is still #1, because REXing only goes on for so long, and once the RCP bug is fixed, Commercial will probably still be damn good.

You might very well be right, but I think there's still hope.

But this is way OT I suppose.

One question that is on-topic I'd like to pose is: With the RNG giving the player so few luxuries, or so it seems, why would one want to high-tail it to Republic?

Yahweh Sabaoth · November 21, 2003, 14:49

Ok, WAIT, nevermind: the luxury slider. I forgot the luxury slider.

I'm sorry... I am a bad person... I apologize for the last question. Don't flog me please.

Arrian · November 21, 2003, 14:59

There will be no flogging here. The luxury slider is indeed the answer - but with the combo of few luxuries and C3C's version of republic, that pretty much precludes having a strong military and being able to research. Which is good, of course, because that is to say you can't do everything at once.

If you do have several luxuries, with good land, you can (at least up to Monarch... after that, on Emp/Demi, with only 1 citizen born content, it will be dicier).

-Arrian

Dominae · November 21, 2003, 15:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
There will be no flogging here.

/me sadly puts away his new flogging machine.

Arrian · November 21, 2003, 15:02

Now THAT was funny, Dom.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · November 21, 2003, 15:44

/me Removes bullet from mouth and wipes sweat from brow

asleepathewheel · November 21, 2003, 16:35

The mayans are definately a powerhouse for the human. Serious rexxing capabilities plus enslaving barbs and enemies early early in the game is quite an advantage, even if it means a bc, pre-republic golden age, an extra 10 workers overcomes it that early, IMHO.

I find my self pushing for phil, no matter what civ or landmass, hoping to trade for alpha (either for my orig techs or hut techs) and using the free tech on code of laws (though in my current game I chose construction). Then, if I need to, I whore out CoL and phil and get everything the AI has. Very powerful. I do find that if I don't beeline for phil, I am beaten by the AI, hence repub is not usually an option for me

realpolitic · November 21, 2003, 19:03

The extra tech doesn't equal the value of having lots of conquered territory. The price of techs will go down in cost over time, but the cities will get bigger. Philosophy won't get me extra shields, but cities will.

nbarclay · November 21, 2003, 20:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae

It's also absurd the advantage that a player gets when he or she restarts to get the perfect Agricultural River start.

I would say "above average" rather than perfect. In a way, restarting a couple times or so to start on a river with an Agricultural civ isn't all that different from choosing an Archipelago map for a Seafaring civ (especially the Vikings) or a Pangea map for an Expansionist civ. Doing any of those things loads the dice a bit in the civ's favor, making the game not a valid test of how well the player could do with the same civ under less favorable conditions. (Although I'll admit that the difference for Agricultural civs depending on whether or not fresh water is available is probably a bit bigger.)

Also note that some AIs get better starting positions than others. Thus, if it averages taking three restarts to get a starting position I like on particular map settings, in an 8-civ game, there are probably a couple AIs with at least as good a starting position as I have. (And odds aren't bad that one of those civs is also agricultural.) In contrast, playing out a bad start practially guarantees that there will be AIs with better starting positions. So in terms of best-vs.-best, small numbers of restarts have an effect more along the lines of avoiding leaving the human player at a significant disadvantage than along the lines of providing an advantage. Perhaps more importantly for purposes of discussion on Apolyton, that small a number of restarts does not put my games outside the realm of "normal."

And a lot has to do with what kind of game a player wants. When I play solo, I tend far more in the "ultimate power" direction than in the "hard fought challenge" direction, so I fairly routinely restart a few times to get a starting position I like. Compared with what I do a lot of the time, the two restarts before my first game and probably about three or four before my second was on the low side, and I seriously doubt that I would have played either of those starts out in a solo game without the Agricultural trait.

Nathan

nbarclay · November 21, 2003, 21:10

By the way, one other quirk to Agricultural: every city that starts on a river and thus gets an extra food under Despotism is a city that won't benefit from a half-price aqueduct later on. That counteracts a little bit (albeit admittedly nowhere near all) of the "Agricultural civs benefit more from rivers than other civs" effect.

Regarding Philosophy, just modifying things so you can't get Republic or Monarchy as a free tech would be sufficient to close the "free early government" loophole. (I'm pretty sure that with a good starting position and a good REX, the loophole could be exploited to get Monarchy in much the same way as it can Republic. That could be especially interesting for an Ultimate Power game as Egypt!)

Nathan

SirOsis · November 22, 2003, 04:37

I made a grab for Monarchy in my current game. Went up to Polytheism then traded for writing and got to Philosophy first. Then I chose Monarchy as my free tech.

Worked out quite well because I was playing the Hittites and was able to contact every civ, trade techs, and stay in the lead due to the expansionist trait. Bypassed Republic to enter the Middle Age well ahead of everyone. Shooting for Chivalry to rush the Knights Templar with my SGL.

Does anyone know if the Crusaders are supported units? If so I think I'll stay in Monarchy because I'll have quite a few units and could use the 4 unit support for cities. Better than Republics 3 and I can have 3 Military Police so my army can become huge without a huge happiness hit. Although now that I've built the Temple of Artemis I could maybe get some WLTKDs and reduce some corruption.

Monarchy actually is a good early government. Don't always need to beeline for Republic.

DrSpike · November 22, 2003, 08:38

Quote:

Originally posted by nbarclay
By the way, one other quirk to Agricultural: every city that starts on a river and thus gets an extra food under Despotism is a city that won't benefit from a half-price aqueduct later on. That counteracts a little bit (albeit admittedly nowhere near all) of the "Agricultural civs benefit more from rivers than other civs" effect.

Nathan

I'm not understanding this.........they don't benefit from the half price aqueduct because they get a zero price aqueduct right?

DrSpike · November 22, 2003, 08:41

Quote:

Originally posted by nbarclay

Regarding Philosophy, just modifying things so you can't get Republic or Monarchy as a free tech would be sufficient to close the "free early government" loophole. (I'm pretty sure that with a good starting position and a good REX, the loophole could be exploited to get Monarchy in much the same way as it can Republic. That could be especially interesting for an Ultimate Power game as Egypt!)

Nathan

This doesn't help IMO........you can still do what I suggested above, and it's lower risk detouring to CoL anyway. You still get republic at around about the earliest time you can feasibly go to it anyway.

steven8r · November 22, 2003, 14:40

Quote:

Originally posted by SirOsis
Does anyone know if the Crusaders are supported units?

Crusaders do NOT cost anything. Same with Ancient Cavalry. Both Temple of Zeus and Knights Templar = free units!

steven8r · November 22, 2003, 14:45

Re: Re: Express Path to Republic in C3C

In my last game, I got Philosopy first and used my freebie on Literature--no one else had it. I was able to build GL and then CoL, Rep, etc. were no problem to get--they just magically appeared.

(had to wait a little while until I found more civs, but once I found them, the techs just started pouring in.

With the GL, I dropped my research to 0% and just started building my military.

vmxa1 · November 22, 2003, 15:43

I have not found the Knights Templar to be all useful. I mean, I am glad I got it and they did not. I just am not able to get the units into much action and they become rear guard troops.

nbarclay · November 22, 2003, 19:37

Quote:

Originally posted by DrSpike

I'm not understanding this.........they don't benefit from the half price aqueduct because they get a zero price aqueduct right?

Technically, it's that they don't need aqueducts rather than that they get them for free, but yes.

nbarclay · November 22, 2003, 19:45

Quote:

Originally posted by DrSpike

This doesn't help IMO........you can still do what I suggested above, and it's lower risk detouring to CoL anyway. You still get republic at around about the earliest time you can feasibly go to it anyway.

CoL is cost ten. The government techs are cost 24 for Monarchy and cost 28 for Republic. So while getting CoL free can speed up getting Republic, it speeds it up just a little over a third as much as getting Republic for free can.

DrSpike · November 22, 2003, 20:14

Quote:

Originally posted by nbarclay

Technically, it's that they don't need aqueducts rather than that they get them for free, but yes.

So they don't benefit from a half price aqueduct because they don't need one at all. That's twisted logic.

Hehe, I know what you mean.......*both* agricultural and non-agricultural don't need the aqueduct. But it still obviously true that agricultural civs benefit more from rivers.

DrSpike · November 22, 2003, 20:18

Quote:

Originally posted by nbarclay

CoL is cost ten. The government techs are cost 24 for Monarchy and cost 28 for Republic. So while getting CoL free can speed up getting Republic, it speeds it up just a little over a third as much as getting Republic for free can.

Yes I know the tech costs.

The point is under my scheme you research at 50 turns, so you benefit from the cap and can amass loads of cash. Sure you get republic later (actually just about the time you can viably switch), but you can rarely use it effectively straight away under your scheme. Also your scheme can go wrong quite easily, especially above Monarch.

Catt · November 22, 2003, 20:55

Off-Topic:

Quote:

Originally posted by steven8r

Quote:

Originally posted by SirOsis
Does anyone know if the Crusaders are supported units?

Crusaders do NOT cost anything. Same with Ancient Cavalry. Both Temple of Zeus and Knights Templar = free units!

I interpret SirOsis' original question to be whether or not the free units require upkeep costs like any other unit -- and the answer is that they most certainly do. Nontheless, a very small price to pay for free units or free mobile shields (move the units and disband in cities).

On-Topic: Usual caveat that it's too early with C3C to say for sure blah blah blah . . . if I am quite comfortable with my tech position, I will go for CoL before Phil so I can grab Republic for free (and would do the same with Polytheism for a free Monarchy if I wanted Monarchy); if I am at all uncertain, I think I'll tend for the safer play of just getting Phil, taking CoL for free, and then pursuing Rep or some other tech with native research. I've tried the "CoL first" approach three times (of 5 games), including once by accident when I forgot that Phil is now such a juicy tech. Once it worked, and twice it failed (meaning I was not first to Phil). Both failures (Emp and DemiGod levels, respectively) were due to overseas civs getting there before me and with only minimal warning (i.e., a wonder pop-up or two that indicated that the other continent was progressing more quickly than my own, but after I had pretty much committed to the approach).

Catt

nbarclay · November 22, 2003, 23:32

Quote:

Originally posted by DrSpike

The point is under my scheme you research at 50 turns, so you benefit from the cap and can amass loads of cash. Sure you get republic later (actually just about the time you can viably switch), but you can rarely use it effectively straight away under your scheme. Also your scheme can go wrong quite easily, especially above Monarch.

The risk of the scheme's misfiring is certainly a serious drawback. But a civ that's in a strong enough position to win the race on Emperor or higher is very likely strong enough to benefit from an early switch to Republic. A lot depends on how many units the civ has; industrious civs have something of an advantage because they need fewer workers, and a civ with a small military can benefit from Republic sooner than one with a large military can (both because it has lower upkeep costs and because it loses less advantage from MPs). Note also that Republic reduces waste and corruption, so in addition to the extra gold per tile (assuming you've kept up on improvements), outlying cities produce a bit more gold and shields after the switch.

I'm certainly not saying that going for CoL and then Philosophy in order to get Republic faster is always a good idea. But it can be an excellent one with a good enough start.

Yahweh Sabaoth · November 24, 2003, 12:24

So far, on Monarch level, I'm inclined to say the safest path to Phil is: Alphabet-> Writing-> something not TOO costly, and tradeable (mathematics is a good choice, IMHO) -> Philosophy.

I tried the CoL gambit (although sloppily) this weekend, and it did not work out; the first game in which I didn't get Philo first.

On Monarch level, researching Writing and then Philosophy at 50 turns per tech will still generally land you Philosophy first, for what that's worth.

vmxa1 · November 24, 2003, 12:58

YS that works on Mon and I have pulled it off on Emp, but it is out of the question on Demi. I have not tried the higher level so far, but I am sure it going to be rare.

DrSpike · November 24, 2003, 13:06

Writing at 50 is ok........but turn the slider up for Philo. If you get it first at 50 its only because the AI chose not to research it, so the strategy is a bad one.

asleepathewheel · November 24, 2003, 13:34

Quote:

Originally posted by DrSpike
Writing at 50 is ok........but turn the slider up for Philo. If you get it first at 50 its only because the AI chose not to research it, so the strategy is a bad one.

yeah, the only way I could see that working is if you start with alpha or can hut it or trade for it very early on. Unfortunately I usually play civs that do not get alpha, so always a race and gamble, even on emperor for me.

Catt · November 24, 2003, 14:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
So far, on Monarch level, I'm inclined to say the safest path to Phil is: Alphabet-> Writing-> something not TOO costly, and tradeable (mathematics is a good choice, IMHO) -> Philosophy.

The end-goal is to be the first to Philosophy so you get the free tech. The sub-goal is to research something before Philosophy that makes the free tech from Philosophy more valuable to you. If you detour from Philosophy for any reason, it should be to research a pre-requisite tech for the tech you have your eye on as the "free" tech. With that said, the only reason I can see for diverting from the Philosophy path for Mathematics is if you've set your sights on Currency (or Construction, if you've traded for Iron Working) as the free tech. Otherwise, you'd be better off going straight for Philosophy (minimize risk) and researching the more expensive Math after your empire has developed a bit more during the path to Philosopy. Or am I missing something?

Catt

Dominae · November 24, 2003, 14:33

Quote:

Originally posted by nbarclay
I would say "above average" rather than perfect. In a way, restarting a couple times or so to start on a river with an Agricultural civ isn't all that different from choosing an Archipelago map for a Seafaring civ (especially the Vikings) or a Pangea map for an Expansionist civ. Doing any of those things loads the dice a bit in the civ's favor, making the game not a valid test of how well the player could do with the same civ under less favorable conditions. (Although I'll admit that the difference for Agricultural civs depending on whether or not fresh water is available is probably a bit bigger.)

I wrote big long post about this here: On the Agricultural trait.

Quote:

Also note that some AIs get better starting positions than others. Thus, if it averages taking three restarts to get a starting position I like on particular map settings, in an 8-civ game, there are probably a couple AIs with at least as good a starting position as I have. (And odds aren't bad that one of those civs is also agricultural.) In contrast, playing out a bad start practially guarantees that there will be AIs with better starting positions. So in terms of best-vs.-best, small numbers of restarts have an effect more along the lines of avoiding leaving the human player at a significant disadvantage than along the lines of providing an advantage.

What you're not considering is that it's not you versus a particular AI, it's you versus all the AIs. Giving yourself a better start makes the whole game easier. Restarts only provide advantages. Your point only makes sense in a MP or PBEM environment.

Consequently, saying that some things are "too easy" or "too powerful" is often a direct reflection of the quality of your start, and not actually something in the game mechanics. On average, it is in fact a lot tougher to play the Philosophy game (on Emperor) than you make it out to be.

Dominae

Yahweh Sabaoth · November 24, 2003, 14:34

@Catt:

No, your reasoning is very sound, makes a lot of sense. I was just trying to figure a tech that would fit in before Philosophy, that would allow you to win the Philosophy race. I'm skeptical of the ability to get CoL before Philosophy consistently; hence, I suggested mathematics. But there are others. Mysticism is generally taken by someone by this point, but it is not, somehow, then that would make a good sub-goal.

On the other hand, CoL is very valuable for trading; if you're not looking to get Republic right away you might as well get CoL as your free tech.

For me, the optimal path would be to get Monarchy for free... but rarely do I have Polytheism at this point. And that's just my playstyle; I like the stability of Monarchy, and Republic tends to give me a headache. I'm still learning, you see.

Catt · November 24, 2003, 15:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
No, your reasoning is very sound, makes a lot of sense. I was just trying to figure a tech that would fit in before Philosophy, that would allow you to win the Philosophy race. I'm skeptical of the ability to get CoL before Philosophy consistently; hence, I suggested mathematics. But there are others. Mysticism is generally taken by someone by this point, but it is not, somehow, then that would make a good sub-goal.

I guess my point was more along the lines of: (1) get to Philosophy first! You must secure the free tech; (2) about the only reason to detour from the Philosophy beeline if you've set your heart on Philosophy is to gamble that the detour itself will allow you to utilize the free tech in a more powerful manner. In other words, I would detour for Math, CoL, Mysticism, Polytheism, etc. only if the detour allowed me to utilize the free tech choice to better advantage. So, Nathan's point in this thread is that a CoL detour allows taking Republic as a free tech; a Polytheism detour allows selecting Monarchy as the free tech -- in both cases, the detour allows the player to use the free tech for (1) a much more expensive techs than others available, and (2) a much more beneficial tech to the player in most cases (i.e., get out of despotism).

Catt