Georgia - Page 4

Az · December 1, 2003, 05:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Saras

Doh, there were no Lithuanian labels. And of course they didn't feed 300 people. You grew your own grain and cought most of your own fish, but meat, cheese and poultry came mostly from Baltics.

No they didn't.

certainly not meat, anyway. our meat was from Krasnodar.

Saras · December 1, 2003, 06:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Azazel

No they didn't.

certainly not meat, anyway. our meat was from Krasnodar.

I said "most", not "all". And it's a ***** to ship pork from Utena to Tbilisi.

Tripledoc · December 3, 2003, 20:11

This just happened.

The Georgian state television station was hit by an explosion. This was timed to coincide with an interview with the Russian ambassador. No on was killed.

Eduard Sjevardnadse is a close friend of Moscow and has since accused George Soros, international financier, and supporter of the Amercian Presidential candiate Lieberman, of financing the coup against him.

The mob that ousted Sjevardnadse obviously has close ties to the Mafia. The quick condemnation by the US of supposed voter fraud in the Georgian elections would suggest the involvement of CIA too.

The Vagabond · December 3, 2003, 21:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Tripledoc
Eduard Sjevardnadse is a close friend of Moscow ...

What?! He is not a friend of Moscow. However, the leading presidential candidate, a hardcore nationalist, could be even worse than Shevardnadze. Two of the three Georgian autonomies already scream for being admitted into the Russian Federation, and the third one may well follow them soon. If this guy (supposedly backed by the US) wins, it will be a desaster for Georgia.

Saras · December 4, 2003, 06:57

Quote:

Originally posted by The Vagabond

What?! He is not a friend of Moscow. However, the leading presidential candidate, a hardcore nationalist, could be even worse than Shevardnadze. Two of the three Georgian autonomies already scream for being admitted into the Russian Federation, and the third one may well follow them soon. If this guy (supposedly backed by the US) wins, it will be a desaster for Georgia.

Who can deny that these autonomies' desire to joint the Russian Federation were "caused" by clever behind the scenes manipulation by Russian intelligence?

The Vagabond · December 4, 2003, 20:25

So, Saras, you just can't believe that becoming a part of the Russian Federation may be a genuine desire of the people of those autonomies.

The Vagabond · December 4, 2003, 20:28

http://www.inthenationalinterest.com...47Realist.html

Quote:

This is also a factor in "advice" that has been provided to Georgia. Once one of the most prosperous republics of the former USSR, Georgia was especially hard-hit by the collapse of the Soviet Union.

A hallmark of U.S. strategy toward the former Soviet Union has been to encourage the other republics to emerge from Russia's shadow. Such a policy is all well and good. The problem remains, however, that countries like Georgia are akin to Mexico in Porfirio Diaz's lament: "Poor Mexico! So far from God, so close to the United States." And while Westernized elites delight in promoting Georgia's transatlantic ties, the reality is that the country needs to normalize its relationship with Moscow. Georgia depends on Russia not only for the energy that heats homes in the winter and powers the electricity grid, but hundreds of thousands of Georgians continue to live and work in Russia.

The United States wants to encourage Georgia to be more independent of Russia. In so doing, however, in "escaping dependency" in economic terms from Russia, there must either be a new source of supply or this creates real problems for the country. American firms that have tried to invest in Georgia have found it quite difficult to turn a profit. And let's be clear here: American private investment is not some sort of quasi-foreign aid. American firms will invest in places that are profitable and that meet their economic needs. Just as we don't see many Russian firms investing in Mexico, we shouldn't be surprised that Russian firms might want to invest a great deal in their neighbors--it makes good business sense. And despite the large amount of aid that the United States has given to Georgia, it is unlikely to increase by leaps and bounds--and certainly the United States is not going to supply Georgia with energy or give Georgians hundreds of thousands of U.S. visas to come study, work and live in the United States.

So, we have to squarely realize that fostering rising expectations--in Turkey about immediate EU membership or in Georgia that it will be bailed out of its economic and political crisis by large amount of Western aid--are counterproductive. It would be better to promise what we actually can deliver.

Saras · December 5, 2003, 06:38

Quote:

Originally posted by The Vagabond
So, Saras, you just can't believe that becoming a part of the Russian Federation may be a genuine desire of the people of those autonomies.

Who in their right mind would rejoin Russia voluntarily?..

lord of the mark · December 5, 2003, 14:20

Quote:

Originally posted by The Vagabond
So, Saras, you just can't believe that becoming a part of the Russian Federation may be a genuine desire of the people of those autonomies.

In any case it would be a violation of Georgian sovereignty. After lectures from Russia on the importance of soveriegnty wrt 1. Iraq 2. Kosovo 3. Chechnya it will be very interesting to see Russia annex Abkazia or South Ossetia against the will of the Republic of Georgia. Do you suppose Russia will then grant independence to Chechnya, and support the independence of Kosovo?

lord of the mark · December 5, 2003, 14:22

Quote:

Originally posted by The Vagabond

What?! He is not a friend of Moscow. However, the leading presidential candidate, a hardcore nationalist, could be even worse than Shevardnadze.

Whats hardcore about him? As far as I can tell he only insists on Georgian sovereignty, and opposes meddling by Russia.

Serb · December 6, 2003, 09:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Saras

Who in their right mind would rejoin Russia voluntarily?..

Georgia did it once, when it joined Russian Empire. Why parts of Georgia can't wish the same now?

Serb · December 6, 2003, 09:20

Quote:

Originally posted by lord of the mark

In any case it would be a violation of Georgian sovereignty. After lectures from Russia on the importance of soveriegnty wrt 1. Iraq 2. Kosovo 3. Chechnya it will be very interesting to see Russia annex Abkazia or South Ossetia against the will of the Republic of Georgia. Do you suppose Russia will then grant independence to Chechnya, and support the independence of Kosovo?

Bah...who cares? We are the guys with rifles there.

Seriously speaking, do you really think that Russians need or want Abkhazia or S. Osetia to join Russia?

Serb · December 6, 2003, 09:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Tripledoc
Eduard Sjevardnadse is a close friend of Moscow...

Yeah, right...

And I'm George Bush's greatest fan.

Nubclear · December 6, 2003, 09:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Saras

Who in their right mind would rejoin Russia voluntarily?..

People would much rather join Lithuania! Would you like proof?

WOULD YOU RATHER JOIN LITHUANIA OR RUSSIA?
Lithuania: 100% (Millions of people!)
Russia: 0% (NO ONE)

The margin of error is 5%, so one can reasonably assume the numbers are more like:

Lithuania: 105%
Russia: -5%

Saras · December 6, 2003, 11:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar

People would much rather join Lithuania! Would you like proof?

WOULD YOU RATHER JOIN LITHUANIA OR RUSSIA?
Lithuania: 100% (Millions of people!)
Russia: 0% (NO ONE)

The margin of error is 5%, so one can reasonably assume the numbers are more like:

Lithuania: 105%
Russia: -5%

Tripledoc · December 6, 2003, 13:39

Quote:

Originally posted by The Vagabond
What?! He is not a friend of Moscow.

Yes he is. Putin did put a lot of pressure on him for allowing Chechens to stay in his country. However when Sjevardnadse was ousted Russia sent its foreign minister dwon there. They had a photo op where they were holding hands. I take that as a message showing where loyalties are.

The Vagabond · December 6, 2003, 19:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Saras
Who in their right mind would rejoin Russia voluntarily?..

They may not be in their right mind, but it's a fact that Abkhazia has been willing to join Russia for the last 10 years at least. Is it usual for you to dismiss facts that contradict your world view, Saras?

The Vagabond · December 6, 2003, 19:48

Quote:

Originally posted by lord of the mark
In any case it would be a violation of Georgian sovereignty. After lectures from Russia on the importance of soveriegnty wrt 1. Iraq 2. Kosovo 3. Chechnya it will be very interesting to see Russia annex Abkazia or South Ossetia against the will of the Republic of Georgia. Do you suppose Russia will then grant independence to Chechnya, and support the independence of Kosovo?

We were talking about their desire to join Russia. It doesn't mean that Russia will ever grant their plea. So what the hell are you talking about? In fact, the official Russian position is that they are and should remain a part of Georgia.

The Vagabond · December 6, 2003, 19:55

Quote:

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Whats hardcore about him? As far as I can tell he only insists on Georgian sovereignty, and opposes meddling by Russia.

OK, let's say that he is simply a nationalist, and the autonomies are against him. A more balanced figure is needed in order to bring peace to Georgia.

The Vagabond · December 6, 2003, 19:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Tripledoc
Yes he is. Putin did put a lot of pressure on him for allowing Chechens to stay in his country. However when Sjevardnadse was ousted Russia sent its foreign minister dwon there. They had a photo op where they were holding hands. I take that as a message showing where loyalties are.

I would still like to insist that he is not. But the thing is that the new president will be even worse in many ways.

Tripledoc · December 6, 2003, 20:36

Quote:

Originally posted by The Vagabond

OK, let's say that he is simply a nationalist, and the autonomies are against him. A more balanced figure is needed in order to bring peace to Georgia.

I would say that his partymen parading around with Crusader flags, is bound to put more than a little fear into any minority. This is bad.

Saras · December 8, 2003, 03:29

Quote:

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Is it usual for you to dismiss facts that contradict your world view, Saras?

What facts?

And abkhazia - I wouldn't bet the farm on it, but I think Abkhazias political elite is fully subverted. Hey, admit it, it's your modus operandi

. I actually think it is sort of cool, in a sinister way and as long as it is not applied to lithuania