PUT Diplomatic Exchanges

[Maniac]

Archaic sent this in reply:

Of course I'm interested. What can you offer us in return?

Can I mail this back?:

---

Hi Archaic,

We'll give you Applied Physics and Synthetic Fossil Fuels this year, meaning there are IIRC five other technologies left we could possibly give you: Nonlinear Mathematics, High Energy Chemistry, Doctrine: Initiative, Progenitor Psych and Adaptive Economics. My offer is to give you one tech each in return for EcoEng & EnvEcon, meaning two techs in total.

I would also want to propose that for pure military technologies such as NonlMath or HEC, we do not give you the tech itself, but rather lend you units with an impact weapon, plasma armour, nerve gas etc, so you can retro-engineer them. But of course if at a later date (hopefully a date when all other factions have already acquired that tech, so they can't steal it anymore from you) you would need the tech itself to circumvent the mod3 rule or because you want to research a tech that has the military tech as prerequisite, we would of course transfer the tech itself to you immediately.
Besides the advantage that the Drones would not be able to steal from you the technology we provide you, another advantage of lending you units to retro-engineer instead of the tech itself would be that your tech costs won't increase due to having a larger # of techs, but that you will still have all the concrete advantages of owning the tech itself.

How does this sound to you? And what two techs (or their concrete advantages without the extra tech costs) would you prefer to get?

Friendly greetings,

Maniac

[Drogue]

I'd say yes, although I'd be prepared to offer a little more. Such as maybe a probe foil? Put it in one of their bases so that they can't steal from it, without declaring on us, maybe?

[GeoModder]

Wait one, if we hand over Synthetic Fossil Fuels, the PUT's enemies can try to steal it. It is mentioned here and there that PUT is under Probe assaults. As far as I checked, we're the only ones who have this tech. So this means potentially that we give up a weapon monopoly, not to mention quite earlier an air power monopoly. Wouldn't it be better then NOT to hand this tech over?

[Maniac]

The Drones have D:AP and SFF.

[GeoModder]

And the Hive not yet I've seen. Those are supposed to be pact brothers. How did we get his info?

[Maniac]

How did we get [t]his info?

Due to using the Hive's infiltration on the Drones. It would be easier to show you than trying to explain in words. Why don't you drop by one of these days? I'll show you.

[GeoModder]

Ok, I'll do that. PM you shortly, but for forum sakes, now I understand why Drogue suddenly told that the Drones have the CF and CBA in their pocket.

[Maniac]

Nothing received from Archaic yet.
Btw, what about we offer him a unification proposal as well, where we join each other's forum and sign a permapact? AFAIK Archaic isn't really that interested in the ACDG (at a time he wanted to disband the PUT faction after all), so who knows he would even appreciate that offer, releasing him of a burden.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Maniac
Btw, what about we offer him a unification proposal as well, where we join each other's forum and sign a permapact? AFAIK Archaic isn't really that interested in the ACDG (at a time he wanted to disband the PUT faction after all), so who knows he would even appreciate that offer, releasing him of a burden.

If he wanted to get out of the game, he could always have asked a replacement or opened the PUT for new members again, who could take over at a later date. So I don't think he is very interested in discussing PUT business all over.

Unless off course there was some special reason that he closed PUT for newcomers?

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Maniac
Nothing received from Archaic yet.
Btw, what about we offer him a unification proposal as well, where we join each other's forum and sign a permapact? AFAIK Archaic isn't really that interested in the ACDG (at a time he wanted to disband the PUT faction after all), so who knows he would even appreciate that offer, releasing him of a burden.

Unified with PUT? Wouldn`t that speed up war with Hive or perhaps it would refrain them from doing so?

[Maniac]

If he wanted to get out of the game, he could always have asked a replacement or opened the PUT for new members again, who could take over at a later date.

At first he wanted to disband the entire PUT, as no one was active anymore to play the PUT faction (so there were no replacers available). Only after many requests of ACDGers he agreed to continue to play PUT, but as a normal PBEM game without any demo game aspects. Hence no new members are allowed in PUT.

Unified with PUT? Wouldn`t that speed up war with Hive or perhaps it would refrain them from doing so?

Both are possible as far as we know. So we best shouldn't base our plans on possible Hive reactions that could go either way.
If they are really very close to the Drones, they'll go to war with us no matter what. But if not, a combined CyCon-PUT would most likely become more powerful than the Drones. And if the Hive's pact with the Drones is only because they are the second most powerful faction, they could switch allegiances after a CC-PUT unification.

[Illuminatus]

Why would they switch allegiances after PUT-CyCon unification - alone they do not have a chance. And splitting up Hive would not be so tempting for them to risk disaster? Would they try to switch allegiances to achieve Coop Vic with us? Drones are rarely heard of, althrough they are AFAICT responsible for good part of Hive power.
Conclusion I would like to see unification no matter the cost of it- but only after PEACE war is finished.

[Archaic]

For those wondering why I wasn't so concerned about Doc. Init and Cruisers.....

My playstyle really has little room for naval actions, and the circumstances in this game only made that worse. While PEACE were around, I had no hope on the high seas, and with my current stagnation, I couldn't see any way I'd be able to get a decent amount of ships out there while still maintaining my infrastructure building (Which was in a bad state as is). So instead, I tried to concentrate on building up a proper "campus". The sooner I clawed back a tech lead from the Hive/Drone alliance (Which our faction had inferred as existing back when the Hive got the PTS), however slight, the sooner I could perhaps claw the faction back into the game.

[GeoModder]

There was not yet a reason to go naval for you. There is still some colonisation room on the PUT island, so no excuses needed. After all, it's the first time I see bases with a nice infrastructure in this game . It's a good base to build further on.

[Impaler[WrG]]

This is why its vital to defend "Campus Island" We should use it as our primary bulwark agains the agreesion of the Northern Builder faction. We should move most of our Navel and future Air Forces their.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
This is why its vital to defend "Campus Island" We should use it as our primary bulwark agains the agreesion of the Northern Builder faction. We should move most of our Navel and future Air Forces their.

O, I think there's plenty of support for that, but the war with PEACE can better be finished to. Perhaps Mammoth with 2 impact marines taking Pampalona and Calico on the way while Impaler finishes Little accident and goes to Atlantis then (if that is still necessary when that is the last standing base)

[GeoModder]

Tactical proposal:

How about taking Crossbone Way, and so denying Drones a turn when it shows that they have attacked PUT?

The advantages seem clear, one turn more time to build up more defenses in PUT.

Edit: almost forgot, a lowering of the Pact between CyCon and PUT means that ALL PUT airunits will be rehomed to PUT again. Giving us some aircover their.

[Impaler[WrG]]

That would be an exploiting a flaw in the game and I will not support such a thing, its already been desided that when a faction is to be eliminated the attacker dose not actualy do so it mearly demonstrates unambigus ability to do so and the Gods deleate them and no turns are lost.

If we tried as you sugjest the Drones would have every right to say we were cheating and Tass would most likly punish us sevearly.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
If we tried as you sugjest the Drones would have every right to say we were cheating and Tass would most likly punish us sevearly.

*shrug* we're history anyway if Hive and Drones go for co-op.

Let him punish us out of the game, at least we weren't defeated military then.

I know, cheating. Never mind.

[Kody]

(GeneralTacticus) They've stuck a landmark on the 'Shrine of Googlie' saying "Road+Forest Area Near
Fungus".
(Maniac) lol
(GeneralTacticus) So unless they're trying to trick us, we can file that away under "what to expect
here".
(Maniac) I guess that's Kody giving instructions to other turns players :-)

I didn't trust them to read posts properly, so I figured landmark was the way to go. Never realised you guys saw it.

[Snowflake]

Guess what? I never did see that bit instruction. Don't even know where "shrine of Googlie" is. The only two landmarks I'm aware in the Hive is "the lake with strange orange ball" and "the broken heart hill".

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Maniac
Edit: We indeed learn this from HongHu. However the rest of the Hive doesn't know she told us this, so it's best we don't mention to other Hiveans we know this.

Yes this is the one time I was disloyal to the Hive. Back in the early days Jamski and I and a few others really liked the CCs and wanted to pact with you to the end, just because we are soul mates.

With close relationship with the Drones I knew that it would take a lot of effort for us to convince everybody for a 3 way win. I've actually got buster to agree that diplomatic victory is a possibility. However due to various reasons we have not been able to pull through any real trades or anything like that that strengthened our relationship while Hive Drones cooperation were getting stronger everyday. I was still trying to work toward that goal, until one day, after Kody shot down each and every tech trade proposal I had come out, and said something like "offer them loyalty as a gift", I suddenly realize that this is not going to happen. Kody was simply being practical and thinking for the best for the Hive. While some Hivers wanted to pact with you and ditch you when convenient, Kody wanted to be honest but he felt that the Hive didn't need the CCs, unlike Jamski and I, who would go with you disregarding the benefits or costs.

What finally prompted my contacting the CCs outside of the Hive's knowledge was when Kody discussed Hive succuss in diplomatic venue with somebody (Enigma or somebody else, don't remember), about how we successfully encouraged the departure of PEACE and CC, and nurtured the initial nice feelings between the CCs and Hive. I felt that it was unfair for a faction to be sacrificed so that we could boast about it, and didn't want my genuine effort to be used as a tool to fool you into the Hive's hand. That was when we were about to sign the pact, and you were about to go to war with PEACE. It was the feeling in the Hive and the Drones that unless the CCs, PEACE and PUT were pacted, you won't be an equal opponent for the Hive Drones alliance. So I suggested it to you. Only Jamski knows generally about what I did at the time, although sometime later I posted in the Hive forum and confessed about this. The original PMs and chats were never disclosed, unlike each and every other contacts I had with any factions.

Till today, I do not know if what I did was actually bad for the CCs. Whilel I was trying to make sure you can watch out for yourselve, I think perhaps what I did was actually pushing you away from the possibility of going with us in the end, no matter how slim the chance is. Effectively I have burned the last chance and have abandoned you for the Hive. It is somewhat a relief when I read today that it was actually Archaic proposed the pact to you.

[Kody]

Honghu,

You make me sound like quite the power mad dictator. I guess you didn't know that I always consulted someone else about decisions and mostly just followed what the person I consulted wanted to do.

"offer them loyalty as a gift"

I was completely serious about that comment. Anyway as I explained at the time, making bad deals for ourselves is just going to break the relations faster. It was better to give a gift as it means far more than an unbalanced trade.

Kody wanted to be honest but he felt that the Hive didn't need the CCs, unlike Jamski and I, who would go with you disregarding the benefits or costs.

Jamski and Honghu spent the time talking to the wrong person, they needed to convince the other members, not me. I picked one thing I wouldn't be flexibile on (keeping promises and honour etc). However, aside from that I made a conscious effort to not let my opinions interfere with what I considered was carrying out the directions set by my faction.

What finally prompted my contacting the CCs outside of the Hive's knowledge was when Kody discussed Hive succuss in diplomatic venue with somebody (Enigma or somebody else, don't remember), about how we successfully encouraged the departure of PEACE and CC, and nurtured the initial nice feelings between the CCs and Hive. I felt that it was unfair for a faction to be sacrificed so that we could boast about it, and didn't want my genuine effort to be used as a tool to fool you into the Hive's hand.

I didn't feel very good about that tactic and Voltaire had to constantly give me counselling on the matter. Ask him about it and he'll tell you that I wasn't happy about it for a long time. He usually spent half an hour a day convincing me it was perfectly alright.

Remember you privately told me about that, but I never said a word to the rest of the faction. I let them continue to plot their tricks on the CC, thinking that the CC didn't know anything. Even later Tassadar told me the information you gave away, and I told him it was not an issue and continued to not say anything to the rest of the Hive. I don't think the Hive ever found out about that particular information leak.

Some background first as you caught onto the situation rather late, about 2-3 month before Googlie had raised concerns about the way the game was going and how it was going to be a lopsided victory for the Hive and Drones. Also it was becoming increasingly clear to me that the Hive would never pact with the CC. So I asked if we could give the game away and let the CC know the truth. I argued that the game would be more fun, and we would still have a high chance of winning etc. I was then specifically told by both Voltaire and also later by Buster that letting the CC know was out of the question.

Basically I had my hands tied, by the two people I felt had the most say in the matter.

I think a lot of this happened before we had even met the Cycon, that's why I palmed the job off to you Honghu. You're more assertive than me and I figured you might be able to convince the Hive to tell the Cycon the truth, or actually close some kind of long term alliance. I was actually quite hopeful that you could make it happen, and remember I went to quite some effort helping you hammer out deals that we never really wanted.

If you read many of the threads I made they're often devoid of opinions. In private conversations that never got posted you would find out I'm a pacifist and didn't agree with misleading people the way they wanted. However, instead of letting my own opinions make my decisions for me, I mostly sought the council of others first. Remember that all the time I had hours and hours of private conversation each day with Octavian X, Micha, Rokossovky, Vev, Voltaire, Jamski, Enigma, Dacole etc. That was me trying to find the middle ground between everyone on many issues and following a plan that would be most suited to most people.

I'm still quite upset that my team mates still think of me as a dictator. Also the fact that there was the mistaken impression that I was responsible for the breakdown in the Cycon-Hive relations. The two outcomes that I would have most preferred was letting the Cycon, Peace and university pact against the hive and drones or going for a diplomatic victory with hive, drones and cycon. I never liked the middle ground that people wanted.

[Snowflake]

Kody, I do not mean that you are the one who was responsible for the break down of the Hive CC relationship. Jamski, you and me used to be the three Hivers that are most pro CC. Roko was enjoying imagining about backstabbing, Voltaire was leaning toward Roko. Others just wasn't that active at the time, or didn't have important influences.

With Jamski became inactive at the game, when I realize that you started to believe that the CC is not going anywhere with us, it was not because I view you as a dictator, it was because I view you to be the last one that has changed his position away from pro CC, that I knew the Hive CC would never have that happy ending. For me, buster and Googlie was not the problem. It was whether the Hive wanted it. Painful as it was, I had come to the realization that I was the only one that really wanted it.

I was completely serious about that comment. Anyway as I explained at the time, making bad deals for ourselves is just going to break the relations faster. It was better to give a gift as it means far more than an unbalanced trade.

This is exactly what I meant. The Hive did not feel the CCs is any useful to it. I said that you "shot down my proposals". I was not implying that you didn't like CCs. It was just those proposals did not bring much benefit to the Hive that we liked. They were "deals that we never really wanted."

In fact the CC has their responsibility too. They have not wanted it wholeheartedly either, from what I can read here.

I'm not trying to put any and all responsibility to you Kody, regarding this matter. I'm actually thinking that it was my responsibility. If I hadn't told the CCs about the Hive's change of attitude, they might not be putting their hearts away in the first place. Instead of building trust, what I did was seeding distrust. This whole incident has actually made me think a lot, regarding whether total frankness is always good and why a relationship between people could or could not be successful.

[Nubclear]

VS.



(Couldn't find an image of the Australian flag being flown. Thus, I substituted for the British flag)

[Kody]

Maybe I'm too defensive....

total frankness is always good

I think frankness is always the way to go if you really want to develop an relationship. People expect you to not tell them certain things. Eg they'll think you're mad if you give them everything the very first turn you meet.

However, trying to hide things that you think will damage the relationship will probably damage the relationship more. Can't you see that's really what caused all the problems between the factions in the first place. People being evasive, lying, omiting information etc.

The university and cycon relationship worked okay, and notice how there were very little hidden between them. Same with Hive and Drones. Very little was held back.

[foolish_icarus]

Originally posted by Kody
However, trying to hide things that you think will damage the relationship will probably damage the relationship more. Can't you see that's really what caused all the problems between the factions in the first place. People being evasive, lying, omiting information etc.

That definitely hurt relations between PEACE and Cycon (obviously). Perhaps a mistake on our part (and Cycon's). But then, to what extent should you go? From an IC perspective, the falling out between P and C happened pretty realistically, I guess. Not that it had to--but would you trust a pirate to be honest? Or a Cyborg? Openness and frankness were simply not among our faction's characteristics. So how much should one work to establish a good relationship between players, vs. a true-to-life one between characters? Having had this experience, I lean towards sacrificing "faction accuracy", to a certain extent, in favor of a working relationship. Though there is certainly an argument to be made for accurate RP. Perhaps more workable in a more relaxed setting.

[Snowflake]

Yes I have always believed and still believe in frankness. And this has been the principle that guides my behavior. However I've seen this hurting people. What I just did can be an example. Should I talk about what I thought at the moment? That would almost be sure to hurt your feeling, because you truely believe that you are true and fair to the CCs, while people are unfairly blaming you for the break up of Hive CC relationship. We've become good friends from total strangers, and that relationship is built based on understandings and trust. We've had disagreements before, and we've gone passed them. However is there a limit where a strong friendship can withhold differences? There's sometimes another me inside telling me that I should try not to say things that could make you unhappy, that the friendship between us is too precious to be damaged.

Sometimes I think trust and friendships are very fragile. One could break them without even knowing. I had trusted and been trusted by Drogue. But I realize that I have hurt his feelings and lost his trust because of that one message I sent on behalf of Hive trying to stall time before we start the Uni war. I have trusted Jamski but he has never trusted me enough to tell me what he did in that CC ultimatum scenario. Trust is so hard to earn and so easy to lose. This is only between individuals. When it is between teams of multiple people, I can't imagine how hard it can be to build and maintain trust.

I've been thinking why Hive can maintain its relationship with the Drones while not the CCs. Is it solely because the physical bounding? That we are located closely and coorperated early and simply cannot offord breaking up the relationship? Or is it because you have never done things like I did, to seed the distrust by telling them the other possibilities?

I've been spoiled by the Hive, that I always speak what I think, and am not afraid of offending people. But perhaps I really need to start learning the skills of diplomacy.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Oh I assure you HongHu Cycon very mutch wanted to get into a good relationship with the Hive, yall were shooting up on the powergraph and we wanted a powerfull alie that we would assure us a spot in the winners circle. Yet we were cautious because we knew ourselves to be weaker then you, because of your always mysterious relations with the Drones and because of our risky and agreessive war we didnt realy ever want to stick our neck out too far to establish that relationship. In hindsight greatly underestimated the strength of your relations with the Drones, we had hoped that by apearing to be a wiser more powerfull faction we could sway the Hive towards our side.

As for Jamski's ultimatime insident, that was quite a confusing affair for us and seems to have been the nail in the coffin. Jamski had some prior contact with us the weeks before and mostly discussed who was Pro/Anti Cycon with us and other Hive politics he was not as Tass claimed leaking any game data. He expressed his Pro Cycon view and said opinon was turning against us. Then without warning he sends us a message telling us to confirm a rummor he had aparently started in which we send an ultimatime to the Hive. After our initial shock (that he would so recklessly start up such a plan on his own initiative) and confusion wore off we though it best to try to defuse the whole situation and go for the cover up route. We said it was all a big "unintentional" misunderstanding on Jamski's part and that Cycon was not sending any kind of ultimatam.

[Snowflake]

Thanks Impaler. I already knew about it from Maniac. I only wish Jamski had worked with me that's all. Even after I PMed you guys I was still hoping by getting Jamski back into the game I could swing this thing around. Kody was right that I gave up when I resigned from the ambassador post after the ultimumtum. What's happened has happened. I only hope I can learn something from it.