RPG's need an overhaul

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Jamski
I hope that wasn't the red button that keeps your pants closed

But this raises the point : Many people see RPG games as "uncool" compared to (for example) FPS games. Why is it "uncool" to be interested in a story and a character and interaction, instead of running through an industrail maze with a mini-gun? Also, I'd have thought that the current success and hype of LotR would lead many people to be interested in "standard fantasy settings" and the games associated with them. Instead the industry has spawned another "clone RTS" and 3 games that are basically FPS (First Person Swordplay) A well done RPG set in Middle Earth would have sold like hot cakes. And we all like hot cakes....

-Jam

There are at least a few of us who think FPS are about the most uncool games out there

[Traianvs]

FPS is cool, it just depends on what you like... I don't like the more popular games such as CS and Quake3 etc... Imo they're pretty poorly made compared to some other quality stuff

btw an RPG about lotr would be stupid: everybody knows the main plot, what's the point of making a challenging RPG then

Besides there aren't that much creatures and beasts to kill in middle-earth. I mean there's not a great variety..

there's orcs, trolls, nazghul, balrog and perhaps some others but well...
I don't think it would be suited for an RPG

[Jamski]

A LotR RPG :

1.) Wouldn't follow the LotR story.
2.) Wouldn't just be killing stuff.

It would have a great world, and a good backstory for your OWN adventures.

-Jam

[MrBaggins]

There is a roleplaying game licensed and set in Middle Earth... called, unsurprisingly, MERP for Middle Earth Roleplaying.

Its very, very good. Its a "lite" version of Rolemaster.

[Urban Ranger]

MERP is pretty good.

[Jamski]

I'll have to check it out.

-Jam

[self biased]

this is my whrilwind. sorta. s'not my paintjob.



although, this is the hyperios variant. basically it's a whole rack of hunter-killer missiles

[Jamski]

Sweeeeeeeeeeeet

Mine had a single big square launcher like the old model, on a rotating pivot.

-Jam

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Jamski
A LotR RPG :

1.) Wouldn't follow the LotR story.
2.) Wouldn't just be killing stuff.

It would have a great world, and a good backstory for your OWN adventures.

-Jam

is there a good one set in middle earth?

the Decipher one seems to be only set in the war of the ring (time frame of the books), but the magic system is interesting

but I don't know much about it (just looked at it in the store once or twice)

Jon Miller

[Jamski]

How does the magic system work? There's not a lot of spell-slinging in Middle Earth. Wizards are rare and powerful, and its even more rare that they cast a spell.

-Jam

[MrBaggins]

Which where in lies the game play problem.

You can't let a wizard have zero power and wait til he's an uber wizard... since then there'd be zero desire to play any magic users. MERP is intended to be a low level adventure, also, even though it has a massive... 40 plus scenario/source book game world.

Essentially, the MERP system has spell lists... one or two per magic using profession. There is a level system and both characters and spells have levels. A magic user has spell points to spend between rest. He can't cast spells over his level, without serious (probable) failure. Spells are generally very modest indeed at lower levels, and only really become decent at lvl 15 or so in my view. The level 1-3 stuff is like hedge wizardry.

Keeping spell points near to 1 per level and increasing the failure chance was a good way of minimizing magic use in MERP games I've been involved in. Magic users can't cast many spells, and get cagey about not burning those, if theres chance for failure, unless its vital to the party.

[Jon Miller]

there are not many spells

and no spell points or spells per day

instead, everytime you attempt to cast, you can get more tired

and if you are tired, it is harder to cast

and if you cast spells close together, it makes you tired faster as well

also, about 4/5ths of magic or more is in the form of subtle things (like elvish items), that have nothing to do with spell casting at all

and 2/3rds of magic (as in spells) are in the form of runes (for dwarves) or abilities (for elves)

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

from a review

I have saved the best till last. Even MERP Second Edition sadly never developed beyond the Rolemaster magic system originally designed to be compatible with AD&D. The delay of LOTR RPG’s release left d20 conversions as most people’s Middle-earth game of choice until now, and however valiant the efforts of previous developers and fans, no modification of another game’s magic system has done full justice to the magic of Middle-earth until now.

If the ‘magic’ of Middle-earth is present throughout the land and indirectly hinted at in practically every page of LOTR, the magic of LOTR RPG is also present throughout the book and not just in the chapter on magic. Just as the Elves view what they do as being as entirely natural, a sense of ‘magic’ is woven into the game at many points. Several of the racial abilities, especially the Elven ones, are couched in terms of magic such that even though they only amount to a bonus on a dice roll, you feel like your character is expressing his or her inner magic when you claim your bonus. Courage Points represent a mastery of one’s fate that approaches the ‘magical’ and accomplished Craftsmen can create special items in which they incorporate some property that is out of the ordinary, whether by knowing intention or as a simple consequence of the love and skill they lavish on their creation.
A section on ‘The Subtle Magic of Middle-earth’ describes the way natural effects less blatant than spells, like the plant-life and the weather of Middle-earth, respond to events. These can and should be used to communicate things to the players (I’d suggest via a test of Lore: Magic, if necessary) to really draw on the way things are conveyed in the books. The subtle magic also ‘honours and aids’ those who are valiant and heroic, so common chance and unfortunate timing never results in anticlimaxes detracting from epic deeds. Good roleplaying and/or ‘dramatic heroism’ appropriate to the moment can earn you a Courage Point for the task in hand or, even better, ensure that timely coincidences occur in your favour.
The Power of Words allows oaths and curses, if made or delivered righteously, to have tangible effects and other statements even to be handled as prophesies if the Narrator is up to the challenge. Invoking the names of the Valar give courage and inspiration, dispel despair and are painful to evils, if they are dramatically appropriate and not just uttered for the sake of a plus.
If a Narrator sets the right tone, a Minstrel, Loremaster or Magician could justify their position in a party solely by engaging with these aspects of the game. In addition to having Lore skills enabling them to relate to and take advantage of such phenomena better than other characters, Magicians are also described as being able to establish a niche by creating elixirs, healing, and exercising insight or interaction skills. There is also a section dedicated to encouraging restraint in the use of spells, and casting spells for the wrong reasons can, at the Narrator’s discretion, merit a corruption test although this isn’t specifically addressed in that otherwise sound section. There is only a brief mention of spellcasting being detectable by others, but sadly neither a mechanism nor even a spell to represent this is to be found in the Core Book.

But even with all this in place, and even though purists will instantly ban them, Decipher inevitably bowed to the commercial imperative of allowing PC spellcasters. Most PC members of the Magician class and certainly anyone admitted to the Wizard elite ‘order’ (the only class that does merit the term) have the ability to cast spells. Although it will do little to hold people back, the book does at least include statements like ‘most groups of adventurers don’t count a magician amongst their number’, and ‘the number of wizards has never been great’. And having made this decision, the game does consolidate it with a background consistent with the (admittedly controversial) statement in Unfinished Tales in which the Five Wizards were the chiefs of their order rather than the only five to exist.
Magicians learn spells either as a consequence of natural attunement to the magic of M-e or through lore and long study, which is more suspect as it often treads a narrow line between the Wizardry that is good and the evil Sorcery that unremittingly leads to corruption. Spells may be cast either the normal way with ‘words of command’ and gestures, or some characters may opt to work them by Runecarving or singing Songs of Power. Some may choose to develop a speciality with a certain category of magic, and anyone may spend extra to acquire a particular facility with a given spell. ‘Spells’ may even be bought, at considerable expense, as permanent abilities like the Voice of Saruman, Beorn’s shapechanging or the Witch-king’s radiation of fear. Spells may also be cast together in combination for more elaborate effects.
There are over 70 spells listed, all of them firmly rooted in original Tolkien text, and plenty to keep any Magician or lesser Wizard character going, but characters adopting a speciality will soon feel the need for more. Seasoned gamers should have little difficulty devising more spells of their own, and the rest will hopefully find the ‘Fell Beasts and Wondrous Magic’ book a valuable expansion.

It is still perhaps appropriate that the spellcasting ‘orders’ are likely to find the spells a little unfulfilling; there is certainly little here to recommend this avenue to powergamers. The joy of the magic in LOTR RPG is in its handling of what it calls the ‘subtle magic of Middle-earth’, which perfectly complements the epic heroism espoused by this game. It is a delightful treatment of ‘magic’ that is essential reading for anyone, whatever their mode of gaming in Middle-earth.

(c) Neville Percy 2002


Jon Miller

[Jamski]

Sounds quite sensibly handled IMO.

-Jam

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by MrBaggins
Which where in lies the game play problem.

You can't let a wizard have zero power and wait til he's an uber wizard... since then there'd be zero desire to play any magic users. MERP is intended to be a low level adventure, also, even though it has a massive... 40 plus scenario/source book game world.

Gandalf's got a mean sword.

I would love a roleplaying environment where magic is extremely rare, almost non-existant. Where a single magical trinket is something so powerful and rare that wars could be fought over it.

[self biased]

although that's a forgeworld resin piece. bloody thing costs an arm, leg, and a testicle. Check out forgeworld's site for more beautiful and outrageously priced things.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Osweld
I would love a roleplaying environment where magic is extremely rare, almost non-existant. Where a single magical trinket is something so powerful and rare that wars could be fought over it.

Generically that's handled by dumping the characters in a poor mana world. What that means is magic is expensive. Spells cost at least double to cast, and you can't find alchemical items worth beans. My only problem with that is you might as well play in a sci-fi setting with alien artifacts replacing magical items.

[self biased]

that's the storyteller system in general, dark cloud. just about any white wolf game out there with the exception of the street fighter game that has that.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by self biased
although that's a forgeworld resin piece. bloody thing costs an arm, leg, and a testicle. Check out forgeworld's site for more beautiful and outrageously priced things.

Cool stuff!

[Jamski]

Costs almost as much as Citadial stuff :eeek: Looks nice though. I made my WW launcher from the underside of the biggest square slotta-base (50mm?), some plasticard, some bits of a Spitfire, some old tat, odd bits and corners. I just used to collect anything that might be "useful". If I had it here I'd make you a photo, it doesn't look as good, but it cost almost nothing to make (apart from the Rhino kit, which cost 4 pounds 50 in those days.)

-Jam

[self biased]

my roommate used to own a gaming store. i've got no end of bits at my disposal. the way i figure it, my whirlwind's about a $75 model when you take into consideration that i sprung for FW's $20 extra armor upgrade, and bought a razorback, instead of the rhino ($30). along with the $26 for the hyperios conversion kit... yeah. lotz. but i was smart, and i can switch out the missile rack for either heavy bolters or lascannons. i could even feild it as a command rhino, if i so chose.

[Jamski]

You can put lascannons on a Rhino now? Kinda defeats the purpose of the Land Raider then.

-Jam

[self biased]

no, you can put lascannons on a razorback. you cut down on the carrying capacity by four from your standard rhino, but you get to add some weapons. bigger games i use the bolters, smaller, the lascannons. and the land raider's got some neat rules these days, too.

[Jamski]

Perhaps a GW thread is needed. I just love to bash those guys
Let's talk about how the 40K universe is a TOTAL rip-off of Frank Herbert (God-Emperor lives for thousands of years? Navigators? Etc?) With the addition of fantasy races in space (Eldar, Orks, Squats, Ogryns = Elves, Orcs, Dwarfs, Ogres)...

-Jam