I Can't Wait To Go To Iraq

[Sprayber]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...d=540&ncid=716

MOSUL, Iraq - Iraqi teenagers dragged two bloodied U.S. soldiers from a wrecked vehicle and pummeled them with concrete blocks Sunday, witnesses said, describing the killings as a burst of savagery in a city once safe for Americans.

Another soldier was killed by a bomb and a U.S.-allied police chief was assassinated.

The U.S.-led coalition also said it grounded commercial flights after the military confirmed that a missile struck a DHL cargo plane that landed Saturday at Baghdad International Airport with its wing aflame.

Nevertheless, American officers insisted they were making progress in bringing stability to Iraq (news - web sites), and the U.S.-appointed Governing Council named an ambassador to Washington — an Iraqi-American woman who spent the past decade lobbying U.S. lawmakers to promote democracy in her homeland.

Witnesses to the Mosul attack said gunmen shot two soldiers driving through the city center, sending their vehicle crashing into a wall. The 101st Airborne Division said the soldiers were driving to another garrison.

About a dozen swarming teenagers dragged the soldiers out of the wreckage and beat them with concrete blocks, the witnesses said.

"They lifted a block and hit them with it on the face," said Younis Mahmoud, 19.

It was unknown whether the soldiers were alive or dead when pulled from the wreckage.

Initial reports said the soldiers' throats were cut. But another witness, teenager Bahaa Jassim, said the wounds appeared to have come from bullets.

"One of the soldiers was shot under the chin and the bullet came out of his head. I saw the hole in his helmet. The other was shot in the throat," Jassim said.

Some people looted the vehicle of weapons, CDs and a backpack, Jassim said.

"They remained there for over an hour without the Americans knowing anything about it," he said. "I ... went and told other troops."

Television footage showed the soldiers' bodies splayed on the ground as U.S. troops secured the area. One victim's foot appeared to have been severed.

The frenzy recalled the October 1993 scene in Somalia, when locals dragged the bodies of Marines killed in fighting with warlords through the streets.

In Baqouba, just north of Baghdad, insurgents detonated a roadside bomb as a 4th Infantry Division convoy passed, killing one soldier and wounding two others, the military said.


In Baghdad, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt confirmed the Mosul deaths but refused to provide details. "We're not going to get ghoulish about it," he said.

The savagery of the attack was unusual for Mosul, once touted as a success story in sharp contrast to the anti-American violence seen in Sunni Muslim areas north and west of Baghdad.

In recent weeks, however, attacks against U.S. troops have increased in Mosul, raising concerns the insurgency is spreading.

Simultaneously, attacks have accelerated against Iraqis considered to be supporting Americans — such as policemen and politicians working for the interim Iraqi administration.

On Sunday, gunmen killed the Iraqi police chief of Latifiyah, 20 miles south of Baghdad, and his bodyguard and driver, American and Iraqi officials said. No further details were released.

The assassination occurred one day after suicide bombers struck two police stations northeast of Baghdad within 30 minutes, killing at least 14 people. Gunmen on Saturday also killed an Iraqi police colonel protecting oil installations in Mosul.

In Samara, about 75 miles north of Baghdad, Iraqi police said six U.S. Apache helicopter gunships blasted marshland after four rocket-propelled grenades were fired at the American military garrison at the city's northern end. One Iraqi passer-by was killed in the air attack, police said.

In Kirkuk, 150 miles north of Baghdad, a bomb exploded at an oil compound, injuring three American civilian contractors from the U.S. firm Kellogg Brown & Root. The three suffered facial cuts from flying glass, U.S. Lt. Col. Matt Croke said.

KBR, a subsidiary of Halliburton, also has a significant presence at Baghdad's Palestine Hotel, which was rocketed by insurgents Friday, wounding one civilian.

"We all know that Americans are being threatened," Croke said.

Kimmitt told reporters in Baghdad that witnesses saw two surface-to-air missiles fired Saturday at a cargo plane operated by the Belgium-based package service DHL as it left for Bahrain.

The plane was the first civilian airliner hit by insurgents, who have shot down several military helicopters with shoulder-fired rockets.

DHL and Royal Jordanian, the only commercial passenger airline flying into Baghdad, immediately suspended flights on orders of the coalition authority.

Despite the ongoing violence, U.S. officials insisted the occupation was going well.

"If you look at the accomplishments of the coalition since March of this year, it has been enormous," Marine Gen. Peter Pace, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said in Tikrit.

Pace is touring Afghanistan (news - web sites) and Iraq.

Sometimes a person wonders why you should even care. People here **** on you and people there **** on you and your higher ups dont know whats going on. The only person that matters it the guy next to you.

I used to think it was important. But why should we really care if they have a democracy or enough water if this **** is going to happen while political wanna be's here at home snipe from the sidelines. If they want to live in a shithole then I say let them.

I have no problem with what we have done so far. But It's time to cut them loose. Let the UN come in and **** it up. Let blue helmets get shot at. Just dont put me in one.

[Nubclear]

The Americans wanted this so badly that they were willing to alienate every ally they have to get in Iraq.
Now they are morally obligated to stay to rebuild Iraq, as well as the other nations that contributed to the war.

Nations that did NOT contribute have no obligations to Iraq.

[orange]

How is this the fault of all Iraqis? America put them against the ropes, and they're bouncing back with fists flying. Can you blame them?

Of course the murders are horrific acts, but that's what happens when you fill people with rage by invading their country and destroying their way of life.

It's been obvious that war against Iraq was never a good idea. This is just superfluous proof.

[orange]

Baghdad seems to be turning into Mogadishu.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Sprayber
Let the UN come in and **** it up. Let blue helmets get shot at. Just dont put me in one.

Don't like what you signed up for? You can always desert.

[Urban Ranger]

You really believe that the Boosh admin did this for the good of the Iraqi people? I don't, not for a nanosecond.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Well ****, maybe we shouldnt even be there. What did you expect? A repeat of Hitler's flower wars?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by orange
How is this the fault of all Iraqis? America put them against the ropes, and they're bouncing back with fists flying. Can you blame them?

Depends who they are and what their motivations are.

Of course the murders are horrific acts, but that's what happens when you fill people with rage by invading their country and destroying their way of life.

You mean the way of life of jumping up and down chanting "WE OFFER OUR LIVES FOR YOU, SADDAM... WE OFFER OUR LIVES FOR YOU, SADDAM... WE OFFER OUR LIVES FOR YOU, SADDAM..." ad infinitum on command, of being near starving so Saddam can work on his 48th palace or the X thousandth heroic mosaic, statue or other memorial to himself? Or the way of life of being a persecuted ethnic or religious minority?

It's been obvious that war against Iraq was never a good idea. This is just superfluous proof.

Good idea or not, it's the here and now baby.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by orange
Baghdad seems to be turning into Mogadishu.

Not even close, but maybe we should give them a little more of what we gave the skinnies.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
You really believe that the Boosh admin did this for the good of the Iraqi people? I don't, not for a nanosecond.

Of course not. But why it was done is useless in the context of what to do with it now. It's not useless in terms of derailing the next grand adventure, but the neocon appetite seems full up right about now.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Sprayber
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...d=540&ncid=716

Sometimes a person wonders why you should even care. People here **** on you and people there **** on you and your higher ups dont know whats going on. The only person that matters it the guy next to you.

Yep, and why the **** they're moving isolated two man sections or fireteams instead of moving and deploying in force like they're in a goddamn war is beyond me. ****ing REMFs that cut these orders.

I used to think it was important. But why should we really care if they have a democracy or enough water if this **** is going to happen while political wanna be's here at home snipe from the sidelines. If they want to live in a shithole then I say let them.

Unfortunately, the political wannabe in the white house decided this was going to be a "beacon of hope" and a "model" for the ME - it sure as hell is the latter, but not the sort of model George II had in mind. Giving a **** about the average Iraqi goatherder isn't essential, but any failure of mission (despite the impossibly high bar set by our dear Commander in Chief) is going to encourage every ******* with a beard, a turban and an agenda to go after us forever.

I have no problem with what we have done so far. But It's time to cut them loose. Let the UN come in and **** it up. Let blue helmets get shot at. Just dont put me in one.

Some fights you can't back out of. The only way through is forward.

[Kramerman]

MtG

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Of course not. But why it was done is useless in the context of what to do with it now. It's not useless in terms of derailing the next grand adventure, but the neocon appetite seems full up right about now.

What to do now? I reckon it would be best to get the Arab League to come in with a peacekeeping force.

[Az]

You mean a carving up force! Hey, that's not such a bad idea!


MtG

[:) Smiley]

Give the Palestinians the state they've always wanted.

[Uncle Sparky]

[singing]

Well its one. two, three
What are we fighting for ?
Don't tell me I'm high on crack
Were all of to Iraq !

Well its four, five, six
Dubbya'd never lie,
There is no cause to question why
Whippee ! We're going to die !!!

[/singing]

[Pekka]

MtG

We all knew this would come to this for sure. Now is the time to decide if the war was a good idea or bad idea. Leaving now makes it a bad idea and useless end of lives IMO. Staying in, trying the best to make something out of this mess and ultimately have Iraq establish their own democratic government that has REAL control over the area and helping with the infrastructure etc first, then get out and leave it to blue helmets.. if success, it was a hella good idea. In my opinion. Then it was 'humanitarian' or what ever. Leaving now means they will fall under Saddams supporters in no time.......

but I understand people in there are frustrated.. especialyl the ones in danger, patrolling there everyday with no real cover or knowledge how to identify enemies before they shoot is bad. But who expected any less?
Locals have difficulties of showing real support, or some of them, as they are in danger of being murdered by the rebel forces. For some of them I think it's more like damned if you do, damned if you don't. But the support is needed to make this a good thing.. difficult task. That's all I can say.

But I'm not criticising what Sprayber said, after all he's the one down there, and I'm the one up here. I wish you strength, safety and nothing but the best possible outcome.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by orange
Baghdad seems to be turning into Mogadishu.

The mutilation of these two soldiers took place in Mosul, not Baghdad. Mosul is quite a distance from Baghdad. In fact, isn't Mosul in Kurd territory?

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by Pekka
Leaving now means they will fall under Saddams supporters in no time.......

So the coalition would have to stay in Iraq until the Saddam supporters have been thoroughly beaten.

I don't know how many saddam supporters are killed or captured every day, but let us say maybe ten. So it would take three years to remove around 10000, half a division, from the threat spectrum. You probably could go over that limit, but it would then become difficult to present it as a war of liberation, and protests at home would surely mount. An escalation would of course be possible after the election.

[orange]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Depends who they are and what their motivations are.

Regardless of what their other motivations are, we are an occupying force and they are fighting our occupation. I think that's the primary reason for most any action by Iraqi civilians against US military personell.

You mean the way of life of jumping up and down chanting "WE OFFER OUR LIVES FOR YOU, SADDAM... WE OFFER OUR LIVES FOR YOU, SADDAM... WE OFFER OUR LIVES FOR YOU, SADDAM..." ad infinitum on command

Not all Iraqis are like this, and I still believe that most of these overzealous types have been brought to this kind of hysteria by war.

of being near starving so Saddam can work on his 48th palace or the X thousandth heroic mosaic, statue or other memorial to himself? Or the way of life of being a persecuted ethnic or religious minority?

What bothers me about this kind of logic is that we have our own problems in the US. While I would never assert that there are 'persecuted' minorities, I would argue that there are groups that are consistantly stiffed by our laws. Should someone use this as a valid reason to invade our country? If you want to change people's minds about how they govern their country, you don't do it by invading and forcing change on them. That's how you get reactionary movements and fundamentalism.

Good idea or not, it's the here and now baby.

Oh well isn't that insightful. Sorry, but I'd rather not forget what got us to this point so that, hopefully, we don't do it again.

[Pekka]

Tripledoc, nah, just long enough for Iraq to have their own leaders up and running the place, so that the Saddam supporters are not strong enough to beat them down.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


Not even close, but maybe we should give them a little more of what we gave the skinnies.

Or maybe you should just cut your losses, lest you get a little more of what the Viet Cong gave you.

[Saint Marcus]

MTG: you're a mod. please act like one. Some of your comments are overly rude, inapropriate and racist.

[SlowwHand]

Kick some radical ass, Sprayber.

[Drake Tungsten]

MTG: you're a mod. please act like one. Some of your comments are overly rude, inapropriate and racist.

Shut the **** up, Donny. You're out of your element.

[Patroklos]

Hey,

What gets me is that all the activists out there that constantly talk about freedom and humanity and what not should be happy Saddam is gone. So we didn't go in for the ideological reason you wanted, the end will be the same; The removal of an oppressive, racist, genecidal war criminal and his followers. How can you be against that? Alot of you are getting lost in sematics. Did you think it would be easy?

And another thing, people are complaining about casualties (this has been the one least costly military campaigns in history, given scale) but it is their idealogical sensativities that restrict the military from conducting operations to end them. It is a never ending circle, stemming from the fact that most activists live in the world they want to, rather than the world that is, and then wonder why things don't work.

This isn't another Somalia, Vietnam, or whatever. Imagine what would have happened if the newspapers ran a story for EVERY soldier that died in WWI or WWII. Civilians lack the capacity for perspective in military operations, they are not used to people dieing (because the military allows their fantacy world to exist at home) nor understand that sometimes it is nessecary to kill and die. That is fine, they are not supposed to because they are in fact civilians and that is why we have militaries, to make sure they don't have to know these horrors. Vietnam and Somalia all stem at their root civilian intervention as the cause for failure. It is like letting the military run the treasury department. If Iraq is going to turn into one of those conflicts it is because of activists, just as before. It is really very ironic.

So when I am over there next deployment, I will "happy" (as much as one can going to war and all) as I like oil, dropping hammer on mass murderers, and helping people that have been brutalized for decades.

-Pat

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Hey,

What gets me is that all the activists out there that constantly talk about freedom and humanity and what not should be happy Saddam is gone. So we didn't go in for the ideological reason you wanted, the end will be the same; The removal of an oppressive, racist, genecidal war criminal and his followers. How can you be against that? Alot of you are getting lost in sematics. Did you think it would be easy?

And another thing, people are complaining about casualties (this has been the one least costly military campaigns in history, given scale) but it is their idealogical sensativities that restrict the military from conducting operations to end them. It is a never ending circle, stemming from the fact that most activists live in the world they want to, rather than the world that is, and then wonder why things don't work.

This isn't another Somalia, Vietnam, or whatever. Imagine what would have happened if the newspapers ran a story for EVERY soldier that died in WWI or WWII. Civilians lack the capacity for perspective in military operations, they are not used to people dieing (because the military allows their fantacy world to exist at home) nor understand that sometimes it is nessecary to kill and die. That is fine, they are not supposed to because they are in fact civilians and that is why we have militaries, to make sure they don't have to know these horrors. Vietnam and Somalia all stem at their root civilian intervention as the cause for failure. It is like letting the military run the treasury department. If Iraq is going to turn into one of those conflicts it is because of activists, just as before. It is really very ironic.

So when I am over there next deployment, I will "happy" (as much as one can going to war and all) as I like oil, dropping hammer on mass murderers, and helping people that have been brutalized for decades.

-Pat

Hey,

What gets me about all those illegal war apologists out there is that they really think they're doing the Iraqi people a favour. They're lost in a patriotic haze, not seeing the real world. Saddam ISN'T gone. Neither is Bin Laden. And they've awakened a dragon which will terrorize and destablize the world for a generation. It can't be beaten with all the Abrahms tanks and all the stealth bombers in the US arsenal.

It will consume their precious freedom, too. Basic civil liberties will be under constant pressure from those in authority trying to "root out terrorism". And many people will go along, hoping to trade freedoms for "security". They'll end up with neither.

It's ironic isn't it, that a war to find weapons of mass destruction, found none. A war to liberate the Iraqi people resulted in a popular insurrection against the "liberators". A war against terrorism multiplied it tenfold. A war for freedom eroded freedom.

And what's left? Just the oil.

But not for long.

[orange]

Originally posted by Patroklos
So when I am over there next deployment, I will "happy" (as much as one can going to war and all) as I like oil, dropping hammer on mass murderers, and helping people that have been brutalized for decades.

Whatever helps you sleep at night...

[Drake Tungsten]

Well, helping people that have been brutalized for decades would certainly help me sleep at night.

[Urban Ranger]

You should be assigned to liberate Congo.