New Specialists: Civil Engineers

[MrWhereItsAt]

I have just reached these for the first time in my first properly played Epic game, and thought I would post my thoughts, hopefully starting a discussion, since I have not seen one yet. If there is another thread for this I would appreciate it if someone could direct me, as I find it difficult keeping up with everything posted here.

To give a quick rundown, these are another specialist that you can turn workers into (like Entertainers, Taxmen and Scientists) if you take them off working the map squares. They turn up with Replaceable Parts and give your city two useable shields for every citizen turned into a Civil Engineer. Needless to say they are not very useful for cities with low waste near your Palace or FP (even with the additional corruption changes/bug in C3C), as you tend to be losing several food and useful trade for those two shields. However they become rather more interesting for cities that experience high waste/corruption.

In the case of especially large maps or distant cities, often you can find you have so much waste you end up with many 1spt cities no matter what you do. In some cases you can gain back another shield or two with Courthouses, Police Stations and WLT*D, but these take either money or pop to rush, or a very long time if you build them from scratch (or I suppose an IMO badly used MGL!). But now with Civil Engineers you can triple your totally corrupt cities' useable production by taking just one citizen off the map. By now you have the ability to irrigate even those squares with no freshwater access and have RRs increasing the food and shield production from irrigation and mines respectively (if you have Coal, that is).

Thus, when I found out what these Engineers did, I immediately started changing all mines that I could into irrigation in all the parts of my empire a large distance from the FP and Palace. With each irrigated, RRed grassland netting me 4 food (from any Government but Despotism), I can still maintain a good growth rate in these cities if I want and still have several Civil Engineers. I found, that if I did this, I could increase the shield production of formerly useless size 7 or 8 cities from 1spt to as much as 9spt! This drops the time to build a Courthouse from scratch from 80 turns to 9 - much more acceptable. Thus it seems that Replaceable Parts in C3C ushers in a new age of production civ-wide, not just in two areas around the Palace and FP.

But there is a catch - these 2 useable shields per Engineer only apply for buildings. Not units. Thus you cannot bolster your military efforts with them. This is where I realised that, although seemingly awesome, Civil Engineers are of limited real use to your civilisation. If you use them to build up infrastructure in hopelessly corrupt cities, you had better be sure that infrastructure is going to do something for you! Not even Courthouses can help some cities recover anything, in which case using Engineers at these places is just adding to your gold-per-turn cost for no return. Nevertheless I can think of a few cases where Civil Engineers would be useful

• with cities close enough to your FP/Palace that Courthouses, Police Stations and WLT*D will actually give you a noticeable return on values before them
• to build temples, markets and maybe Cathedrals to keep these cities happy enough to reach populations where you can turn their population into taxmen or scientists to aid your gold reserves/tech rate.
• to give you a culture building or two in captured cities to help stave off the risk of culture flipping and to help claim the land around your captured cities

The first point will be of value to very few cities, unless you very carefully plan your city layouts. The third could well be an excellent tactic at wartime, especially since you would be starving the population down at the same time as making them prodcutive - both counteracting culture flips. But in the case of a builder game, or just the parts of a game you are building rather than warring, the second is the only case where Civil Engineers are of much use.

Further, this second use for Engineers led me to conclude I would use them to build Granaries, Aqueducts, temples, Markets and maybe Hospitals in hopelessly corrupt cities for the purpose of getting the populations high. Then I could fill the food box and turn every citizen into a scientist or taxman to help my economy for a few turns, before storing up food again. This is a weaker version of the "Xinning" strategy from Civ2. Especially with large numbers of useless cities, this tactic could net you a hundred gold or more per turn for several turns at a time, if you were prepared to do the micromanagement so your cities didn't starve.

Is this enough for the Civil Engineers however? Has anyone really found these uses to be important enough to them in the game? Or should Civil Engineers' shield bonuses apply to units too?

[Arrian]

I'm still adjusting to the new specialists, but I'm coming around to similar conclusions: use the civil engineers to build happiness & growth improvements, and then use the city as a research colony. The thing is, I've yet to really integrate that into my thought process. I keep forgetting to irrigate everything in my hopelessly corrupt cities - I mine some tiles just out of habit. I end up building courthouses in cities that are just too far gone (for C3C's corruption, in PTW they wouldn't be too far gone).

-Arrian

[mimi]

Never made it to Replaceable Parts yet. Though I had been wondering when I would get CEs to use. Perhaps this game...

[MrWhereItsAt]

I know what you mean.... except with terrain improvements, where I was mining as usual until I got Replaceable Parts and my workers started to connect up cities with RRs faster due to the speed bonus, and suddenly when changing a scientist to an entertainer I found this weird new specialist. Then I realised what it was, and by looking at the estimated build time I figured out what it did. Then I finished the RRs and went back to irrigate over everything I had mined just a few centuries before.

Efficient? No way, but then until about 500 years ago I thought I was going to move the Palace.

I have been trying to curb my instinct to build Courthouses everywhere before anything else - but I'll be buggered if I'm going to do all those tedious calculations to figure out which cities would benefit from the CH, so some slip through.

[Gibsie]

Didn't know they didn't help with military units, interesting... now all I need is someone to explain in detail how policemen work (Sometimes they help against shield loss, sometimes they don't)!

[Gyromancer]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
...

Further, this second use for Engineers led me to conclude I would use them to build Granaries, Aqueducts, temples, Markets and maybe Hospitals in hopelessly corrupt cities for the purpose of getting the populations high. Then I could fill the food box and turn every citizen into a scientist or taxman to help my economy for a few turns, before storing up food again. This is a weaker version of the "Xinning" strategy from Civ2. Especially with large numbers of useless cities, this tactic could net you a hundred gold or more per turn for several turns at a time, if you were prepared to do the micromanagement so your cities didn't starve.

...

I use this strategy as well, though there are a few things to note:

There's no real difference between setting the entire population to Taxmen/scientists for a few turns or finding a good equilibrium point where the surplus food works out to zero. (Assuming you are not trying to starve population points away....)

Since the outer cities are hopelessly corrupt, I don't see any reason not to build more of them. Figure out what size city your luxes and wonder effects will support, and pack those cities in so that they will barely reach that size. No need for WLTK days, as the cities are hopelessly corrupt. Build Harbors, city walls, and whatever culture improvements strike your fancy.

I'm not so sure that harbors are even worthwhile for cities without bonus coastal resources in the pure version of this strategy. These cities are really in a food-only economy mode, and the fact that the 2 food produced by a laborer in a harbored coastal square just barely feeds that laborer makes it seem like a waste to me.


Hmmm. The more I think about it, it seems like the 3 beaker scientists and the 2 gold tax collectors have brought back the old-school ICS strategy, only now it's been moved to the outer expanses of your empire...

[Shogun Gunner]

Very information, MrWhereItsAt.

I also have been in automatic "build courthouse for 80 turns" mode. What a great posting and I plan on trying out your strategy of civil engineers.

I will admit to some laziness regarding the micromanagement. When it gets late in the game, I'm so reticent to spend each turn examining every city, that I hire that good-for-nothing governor to do it for me.

Like they say, if you want it done right, you have to do it yourself!

[Catt]

Great thread

I've been doing roughly the same thing -- irrigating everything, using CEs to get whatever improvements might be needed (typically only a marketplace plus something to expand the borders), and then turning as many citizens as possible into taxmen or scientists. I haven't yet had the patience to build hospitals with CEs to get over size 12. With enough food, you typically don't need a whole lot of happiness since specialists don't need happiness - and if you happen to own Adam Smith's, you can have a largish city producing a small chunk of change or research each turn, with the only upkeep cost that of a temple or library.

Catt

[Dominae]

Even pre-C3C, it was always best to put Irrigation around very corrupt cities and just use Specialists to make them mildly useful. C3C just makes this strategy better. It also adds a whole lot of micromanagement to the game: before, it was not really a big deal that were missing out on 30gpt somewhere down the line if you did not feel like micromanaging those corrupt cities; now, it's much more of a loss, so get ready to do a lot of left-clicking in the late-game (a lot more than before).

Since the outer cities are hopelessly corrupt, I don't see any reason not to build more of them. Figure out what size city your luxes and wonder effects will support, and pack those cities in so that they will barely reach that size. No need for WLTK days, as the cities are hopelessly corrupt. Build Harbors, city walls, and whatever culture improvements strike your fancy.

The reason not to do this too much is that your core cities will suffer more Corruption as you get higher and higher above the OCN. This is why it's usually not a good idea to litter the continent with 1-Specalist cities, unless you're doing something weird like milking the score or going for a Culture victory. What you want is a reasonable amount of very large corrupt cities. This is where OCP really comes into its own.

Civil Engineers are a means to an end, namely, large cities filled with Taxmen or Scientists. The use of Civil Engineers is only to build improvements to sustain the growing population of such cities (unless, again, you plan for a Culture victory). Therefore, Courthouses and Police Stations are not really needed. Marketplaces, Temples, Harbors, Aqueducts and the like are what you want to be building with Civil Engineers.


Dominae

[Dominae]

By the way, the strategy of using Irrigation and Specialists in very corrupt cities is another reason why the Agricultural trait is too powerful. That extra Food sometimes allows for a whole other Specialist to be supported, not to mention the ability to turn Deserts into 3-Food tiles (with Railroads) which allows for even more.

[mimi]

[Arrian]

Dominae: I do think it's a bit much that Agr civs get 3 food out of RR'd irrigated desert. That should get capped at 2 shields. I'm still not sure about other changes, though.

-Arrian

[ducki]

Originally posted by Dominae
Civil Engineers are a means to an end, namely, large cities filled with Taxmen or Scientists. The use of Civil Engineers is only to build improvements to sustain the growing population of such cities (unless, again, you plan for a Culture victory). Therefore, Courthouses and Police Stations are not really needed. Marketplaces, Temples, Harbors, Aqueducts and the like are what you want to be building with Civil Engineers.

Fascinating! Must remember this!

By the way, the strategy of using Irrigation and Specialists in very corrupt cities is another reason why the Agricultural trait is too powerful. That extra Food sometimes allows for a whole other Specialist to be supported, not to mention the ability to turn Deserts into 3-Food tiles (with Railroads) which allows for even more.

I wonder how important difficulty level is in relation to the importance of 1 extra specialist per city, but...
I think you're starting to win me over on the power of Agriculture. Personal experiment continues. Resisting urge to threadjack. Details later in appropriate thread.

The specialist info and strategy truly is fascinating and your post in particular pointed out things I did not know or would never have considered regarding corrupt cities and building priorities, etc.

[Gyromancer]

Originally posted by Dominae
...

The reason not to do this too much is that your core cities will suffer more Corruption as you get higher and higher above the OCN. This is why it's usually not a good idea to litter the continent with 1-Specalist cities, unless you're doing something weird like milking the score or going for a Culture victory. What you want is a reasonable amount of very large corrupt cities. This is where OCP really comes into its own.

...

Dominae

Hmmm. My understanding of how corruption works is that any city built would not affect the corruption of any city that was closer to the capital.

According to the corruption FAQ, the calculation of OCN corruption uses the rank of the city to determine if the "over OCN" penalties apply. Rank would not change if the new city was built farther out. So, you wouldn't want to throw these cheapo cities down inside your core, but there's nothing I see in the corruption rules to make you not want to throw them down on the other side of the world....

[TechWins]

I don't like to use any of the specialists, except of course entertainers for obvious reasons. Once in a while I'll use them in select cities, but for the most part it's too much tedium and micromanagement for me. I don't care as much about finding the best possible outcome rather than playing a game with a general strategy. Otherwise, it seems to be too much work and not enough playing. I only wish the AI new how to properly automate the tiles in cities.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Dominae
It also adds a whole lot of micromanagement to the game: before, it was not really a big deal that were missing out on 30gpt somewhere down the line if you did not feel like micromanaging those corrupt cities; now, it's much more of a loss, so get ready to do a lot of left-clicking in the late-game (a lot more than before).

Yes, indeed. I often skipped the "irrrigate and specialize" tactic simply because I judged the MM effort (in workers and city management) versus the in-game effects to balance out as a net downgrade of game enjoyment for me (ymmv) - I did it sometimes, but not always, depending on mood and circumstance. With taxmen now producing 2 gold, scientists 3 beakers, and the availability of the CE to substantially lighten the burden of rush-buying necessary improvements, it just feels like I'm giving too much away if I don't undertake the effort.

I have so far resisted any desire to calculate whether or not it is more advantageous to have scientists or taxmen as the specialists at any given instance, or what the appropriate mix is, but I am sure that some of our more MM-enjoying players will feel the need or the desire to do so, resulting in even more city-viewing and left-clicking from turn to turn.

Catt

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Gyromancer
Hmmm. My understanding of how corruption works is that any city built would not affect the corruption of any city that was closer to the capital.

According to the corruption FAQ, the calculation of OCN corruption uses the rank of the city to determine if the "over OCN" penalties apply. Rank would not change if the new city was built farther out. So, you wouldn't want to throw these cheapo cities down inside your core, but there's nothing I see in the corruption rules to make you not want to throw them down on the other side of the world....

/me reads up on the Corruption FAQ...

You're quite right. It sounds wrong to me, though. Perhaps it was not always like this? If I have a core of 5 cities somewhat close to the capital, and 1000 cities at ~1000 tiles away, will Corruption in those 5 cities be the same as though those 1000 cities did not exist (assuming I'm not in Communism)?

Talk about unrealistic. The more cities you have the more Corrupt all your cities should be, no matter where they are. Distance should be a lot less of a factor than the bureaucracy of governing many people in many settlements (i.e. number of cities Corruption).


Dominae

[WarpStorm]

I agree, Dom. A simpler corruption based on total cities in your empire would seem better than the Rank based scheme in Civ3.

[monkeyman]

Originally posted by Gibsie
Didn't know they didn't help with military units, interesting... now all I need is someone to explain in detail how policemen work (Sometimes they help against shield loss, sometimes they don't)!

I second this! I haven't gotten past the middle ages yet in C3C, so this is all new to me... But how do the policemen impact this discussion? Is it useful in the outlying ag/specialist cities to throw policemen into the mix? And do they help with production for potential military uses? Inquiring minds want to know...

--mm

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by Gyromancer

Since the outer cities are hopelessly corrupt, I don't see any reason not to build more of them. Figure out what size city your luxes and wonder effects will support, and pack those cities in so that they will barely reach that size. No need for WLTK days, as the cities are hopelessly corrupt. Build Harbors, city walls, and whatever culture improvements strike your fancy.

I'm not so sure building 12 size 1 cities is any better than 1 size 12 ciy. This is Civ3, so the effort expended building these cities amounts to a whole tonne of shields and lost pop points in settlers built, whereas you only lose the one pop point in founding the one large city. Moreover, a size 12 city will still allow you to set up as much as 12 Scientists or Taxmen for at least a few turns at a time, although 12 size 1 cities on decent terrain should allow you 1 specialist per city EVERY turn. You would need to weight the pop cost of 12 settlers vs 1 alongisde the gains of 12 taxmen/scientists per turn EVERY turn vs the need to switch to food production again every few turns with a large city.

I'm not so sure that harbors are even worthwhile for cities without bonus coastal resources in the pure version of this strategy. These cities are really in a food-only economy mode, and the fact that the 2 food produced by a laborer in a harbored coastal square just barely feeds that laborer makes it seem like a waste to me.

If your city can grow and there are sea/coast tiles around, that harbour will allow you to at least keep your pop growing at a decent speed. Then with a larger pop you have more citizens to turn into taxmen/scientists, even if it is for a short time. The difference in a size 12 city thanks to a Harbour vs a size 6 city without is an extra 12gpt or 18bpt for at least 3-4 turns in 10.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by WarpStorm
I agree, Dom. A simpler corruption based on total cities in your empire would seem better than the Rank based scheme in Civ3.

Can you say "patch", Firaxis/Breakaway?

(great thread MrWIA )

[Provost Harrison]

Very interesting, I will have to apply this to me present game where I have just past RP...it may make my consider actually doing something with cities if captured that I would otherwise just raze.

[The Viceroy]

Yes, came across this feature the other day in much the same way as some of you. I was looking to see if a policeman was any use in the city, realised it was not, and clicked again .. and there was our Civil Eng .. I almost missed it if It wasn't for the fact that the courthouse had gone from 80 down into the teens ..

I was about to say there seems to be a bug, in that it doesn't show up on your overall city stats (like the other specialist do), but maybe thats because its only used for buildings .. didn't realise that myself.

[Provost Harrison]

See I wasn't aware that corruption wasn't deducted from it, I tried it in one distant city and I got nothing, but of course, I was building a worker at the time so I wouldn't...but this has really got me thinking

[Kuciwalker]

Wow, I didn't know CE's didn't work on military units... I wonder if this is hardcoded or can be changed in the editor.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Looks like the "no effect on military units" is hardcoded.

[DrSpike]

Useable specialists certainly add a little depth to the game. New strategies will have to be developed.

[player1]

Well, if you could build units with them, then they would definetly go into overpowered cathegory for me.

[Donegeal]

I guess the big question is, can the AI utilize this? (could they EVER properly utilize specialist?) Has anyone done a city inspection of an AI civ and seen a specialist being used (other than an entertainer)? If the AI can't use them then they are overpowered already.

[Gibsie]

Well, if the AI gets productino bonuses and more limited corruption I think it's a fair trade. That's quite an if though.