Separate but equal

[Ned]

This is why Kennedy opposes vouchers. The middly class white kids in Boston all go to private schools. The black kids all go to public schools. Vouchers would allow real desegregation by allowing the black kids to go to private school as well. The white kids would then have no place to flee and separate but equal would "finally" die.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/11....ap/index.html

[MRT144]

ok dr. conservatron... your rightwing spin array seems to be working in full effect.

[Urban Ranger]

Private schools don't have to accept black kids.

[korn469]

or they could start new private schools that cost the same as the tuition of the old private schools + the value of the voucher

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ned
This is why Kennedy opposes vouchers. The middly class white kids in Boston all go to private schools. The black kids all go to public schools. Vouchers would allow real desegregation by allowing the black kids to go to private school as well. The white kids would then have no place to flee and separate but equal would "finally" die.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/11....ap/index.html

My daughter goes to a private school. Cost, which is pretty low by San Diego standards for schools of similar academic level, is around 15 grand a year. And they own the school buildings and land outright, as a result of bequests in past decades, so very little capital cost. The largest proposed voucher I've seen in California was $5,200 per year, so that still would leave about ten grand a year after taxes that the average peasant would have to scrape up. My son isn't old enough to be in school, but if he was, then two kids would be a shortfall of twenty grand a year of after tax "disposable" income to be spent on two kids' private school tuitions.

I have yet to see a private school in the US worth a **** (and not heavily subsidized by someone) that charges anything close to the low level of any voucher program that I've seen. So sorry to burst your bubble, but private schools are and will remain generally restricted to those with economic privilege, or those few given full or at least major scholarships.

[KrazyHorse]

Is Ned out of his ****ing mind or is it just me?

Holy ****. If the gov't was going to give enough money to every student so that they could go to whatever private school they wanted then I'd be all in favour of vouchers (this from a full-fledged card-carrying socialist). Until then, it's just a way to give rich folks another tax break.

[Theben]

Well, MtG, supposedly some religious schools have annual tuition costs between $2500-$7500, which is of course the point of vouchers in the 1st place.

[orange]

Sure Ned

[mindseye]

This is why Kennedy opposes vouchers. (...) The white kids would then have no place to flee and separate but equal would "finally" die.

Uh, got it. If something is bad, it must be the fault of the Clintons, Kennedy, or "business-hating" liberals. But most likely the Clintons.

Ned, the only reason I haven't consigned you to the Ignore List with the rest of the partisan yokels and teen fascists is for your occasional humor value.

[Spec]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat My daughter goes to a private school. Cost, which is pretty low by San Diego standards for schools of similar academic level, is around 15 grand a year.

15 grand?!?! Are your schools on the stock exchange or what?!

Man.....Up here in Canada it costs 5 grand a year for the best schools outhere....


You guys are getting ripped off, imo.


Spec.

[JohnT]

You get what you pay for.

[GePap]

Catholic schools, which of course are private in the sens thay they are not state, though still run by a huge organization, would be some of the biggest beneficiaries of Voucher programs, not prep schools and higher end private schools as MtG said.

As I ask over and over and over, dozens of other industrialized states make Public schools work..so there must be somehting about how the uS forms iot public schools that is the basis for failure. I say it is paying from local property taxes and decentralized control.

[Spec]

Originally posted by JohnT
You get what you pay for.

Yea, and that's probably why the U.S. keeps on buying off our scientists every year.


Spec.

[Kuciwalker]

I have yet to see a private school in the US worth a **** (and not heavily subsidized by someone) that charges anything close to the low level of any voucher program that I've seen.

I have yet to see a private school in the US worth a ****, with or without your qualifier

[Buck Birdseed]

Forget race. What it'll do primarily, Ned, is remove the able students (disproportionally from a middle-class background for various reasons) from public school, thus greatly increasing the segregation in society, with even worse bad schools and (possibly) better good schools. The system is also innefficient and a total waste of public money but that's a minor concern.

[DAVOUT]

We have had the same conflict between public and private schools until we adopt the following rules :

the private schools can subscribe a contract with the state (most does); under the terms of the contrat, the school commit itself to strictly follow the state programs defining the compulsory studies, and to hire qualified teachers; and the state commit to pay the teachers and give a fixed allowance per children for the overheads.

Under this regime, the families have only to pay a yearly amount, lower than 1000 €.

Consequently, truly elitists private schools costing very high fees are a very small minority.

As a father of four (and strictly republican partisan of laïcity) I have had to alternate my use of public and private schools, depending on the quality of the schools available, and the particular needs of the children.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Spec


Yea, and that's probably why the U.S. keeps on buying off our scientists every year.


Spec.

Conversely, you don't keep what somebody else pays more for.

[Urban Ranger]

The only real reason to go to the "elite" private schools is to meet and befriend the sons and daughters of the rich and the powerful. Build that personal network early

[DAVOUT]

Personal network is grossly overestimated. Better to bet on competence, knowledge and understanding. If you want to go up, you have to solve personnally the serious problems, either in business or life, and you have better to rely on yourself than on the network.

At least, it is what I told my son and daughters.

[Urban Ranger]

Sure, no amount of networking can help a total nitwit. OTOH, it's tough for a total nitwit to build a personal network.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Theben
Well, MtG, supposedly some religious schools have annual tuition costs between $2500-$7500, which is of course the point of vouchers in the 1st place.

Sure. That's why I mentioned "subsidies" - if you have no capital costs for facilities (which are fixed, and suck up a huge percentage of public school funds), and if you have some outside organization or organizations supporting operations by one way or another, you can have tuition at whatever point you want.

The funny thing to me about vouchers is that every scheme allows one taxpayer to appropriate and decide how to spend another taxpayer's money. My business taxes in California go into education as well, despite my business not having kids. The average family in California with two school age kids pays an aggregate total in sales, property and state income taxes (all of which cover a lot more services, fraud, waste and general nonsense than just education) that is less by a good amount than the public funds allocation for the two school age kids.

I have no problem giving parents voucher's equivalent to their own tax contributions to their kids education, and they can spend that on nose candy and homeschooling, or the Aryan Jugend Academy, or the Church of God Hates Liberal Traitors School of Creation Science for all I care. It's when they start spending *my* tax money that I care.

[Spec]

Originally posted by JohnT


Conversely, you don't keep what somebody else pays more for.

Of course, you americans pay more for everything. Medication, people, wood, salaries.....It's bound invert someday.

Spec.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Spec




15 grand?!?! Are your schools on the stock exchange or what?!

Man.....Up here in Canada it costs 5 grand a year for the best schools outhere....


You guys are getting ripped off, imo.


Spec.

No, it's a non-profit. They pay teachers decently, have up to date technology, labs, etc. and have a pretty low density of students for the campus size, amount of staff, etc. Add to that a lot of field trips and field work, a decent theater, gym, music and arts programs, and a host of things generally lacking in public schools here.

Not to mention that they're fairly good about the whole university connection thing - my daughter is in 11th grade, still has her senior year, and has five offer letters for full academic scholarships, and she's being recruited and talking to several other unis all over the US.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by mindseye
Ned, the only reason I haven't consigned you to the Ignore List with the rest of the partisan yokels and teen fascists is for your occasional humor value.

He's the master troll - puts Horsie to shame.

[DAVOUT]

The American attitude of the citizens toward their tax money reminds me my wife. She has decided once and for all that her personnal money was to be spend on pleasant purposes (that she qualified *useful*): clothes, new pieces of furnitures, vacations, etc, and I was left with *useless* expenses such as insurances premiums, car maintenance bills, credit reimbursements, tuition fees, electricity bills, and of course taxes.

[Spec]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
They pay teachers decently, have up to date technology, labs, etc. and have a pretty low density of students for the campus size, amount of staff, etc. Add to that a lot of field trips and field work, a decent theater, gym, music and arts programs, and a host of things generally lacking in public schools here.

Not to mention that they're fairly good about the whole university connection thing - my daughter is in 11th grade, still has her senior year, and has five offer letters for full academic scholarships, and she's being recruited and talking to several other unis all over the US.

Ummmmmm, same here. Only difference is that we pay only 5 grand for top schools. Oh and that classes have 27 to 35 students per class. And schools are not non-profit here, they are private organisations with fierce competition between eachother.

Spec.

[johncmcleod]

I have yet to see a private school in the US worth a **** (and not heavily subsidized by someone) that charges anything close to the low level of any voucher program that I've seen. So sorry to burst your bubble, but private schools are and will remain generally restricted to those with economic privilege, or those few given full or at least major scholarships.

I am not economically privileged, and many of the other kids that go to my private school are much worse and still go there. And I go to a Jesuit school and it looks great on my college resume.

I have yet to see a private school in the US worth a ****, with or without your qualifier

Skywalker, have you ever attended a privaye school? I have been to both public and private schools and I must say that private schools are fifty times better.

[Nikolai]

I go to a private school, and that costs a bit more than 860 USD. And I agree that the private schools are much better than the public ones. Which is a shame... But I don't understand this issue. In Norway, you can't forbid anyone to go to a private school(AFAIK. It's like that in my school. Christian, but everybody are welcome) as long as they pay, and in public schools you don't have to pay anything.

[Ben Kenobi]

Up here in Canada it costs 5 grand a year for the best schools out here

My university costs only 3K/year! Since it is one of the best in Canada, I would say you are getting ripped off MtG. Of course the entry requirements are starting to creep up.

As for university prep, I took the International Baccalaureate program offered in a PUBLIC school. I didn't have to pay for the program, and we got a much higher quality of education that the standard fare here in Canada. Plus we got the best teachers in my high school since they all wanted to teach kids with an interest in continuing on to university.

I have written only 1 essay equivalent in length to my final essay for the program.

[Spec]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


My university costs only 3K/year! Since it is one of the best in Canada

What University is it Ben?
UQUAM? UM? Or McGill maybe?

Spec.