Defensive fire from archery units

dworkin · November 28, 2003, 12:27

What are other peoples' reactions to this?

I find it to be a nice flavour thing but it doesn't really impress me all that much.

Gibsie · November 28, 2003, 12:45

Well I don't think it's meant to be a feature that makes people wet themselves, it's just for more flavour, as you say. At least it's a form of bombardment that the AI uses.

mimi · November 28, 2003, 13:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Gibsie
Well I don't think it's meant to be a feature that makes people wet themselves...

Oh, well, tell that to my chair!

vmxa1 · November 28, 2003, 13:40

I was not a big fan of it in AU mod and I still feel the same. It is not so big a deal that I would complain either. I am not fond of these types of changes in games. I guess it does not matter if you never play PTW or CivIII after getting C3C.

mimi · November 28, 2003, 15:24

Seems sorta pointless... all it does is make my unit 1hp lower before I destroy the archer. They would never do enough damage to *stop* my assault.

CerberusIV · November 28, 2003, 15:32

It has a point if you are attacking a pikeman stacked with a longbowman and using a knight or med inf. If it doesn't go well that 1HP might well make a difference.

Snotty · November 28, 2003, 15:42

Zero range bombard is fantastic, and Im glad they included it as standard in C3C. This way it can be included in all MP games, and promotes more varied, and more interesting, armies.

Vmxa, why don't you like it?

realpolitic · November 28, 2003, 17:26

It gives great value on defense, and makes archers a viable alternative to swordsman. I like it.

vmxa1 · November 28, 2003, 17:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Snotty
Zero range bombard is fantastic, and Im glad they included it as standard in C3C. This way it can be included in all MP games, and promotes more varied, and more interesting, armies.

Vmxa, why don't you like it?

I only care about it in that I wanted to the game to not change units behavior that much over time. IOW if the archer had it on the day Civ III was released, I would be fine with it.

It is not that I don't like it, I just don't like introducing the change.
Well that and I do not want to build archers, unless I am going to do a rush with them. I rarely build them in the past, now I have to.

DrSpike · November 28, 2003, 19:57

Ooh no you have to build a more varied army......bloody Firaxis.

Rasputin · November 28, 2003, 20:32

anything that makes some of the more less built units like archers and longbowmen more useful has to be a good change. IMHO...

alva · November 29, 2003, 01:27

Quote:

Seems sorta pointless... all it does is make my unit 1hp lower before I destroy the archer. They would never do enough damage to *stop* my assault.

Wich means, that, it will have to rest a turn before it's at full health again, thus slowing you down a little. You might even need another unit to protect it etc...

Taking an archer with a sword on a mountain (even hill) is not straightforward now as it used to be.

DrSpike · November 29, 2003, 07:42

Yes, it's certainly an improvement, and amazingly the AI seems to use it quite often.

Kuciwalker · November 29, 2003, 09:26

Didn't the AI use it even before? I remember killing Archers and Longbowmen in my assaults on AI cities.

Dominae · November 29, 2003, 09:48

I wish Archers, Longbowmen, et al. got their full Attack rating in zero-range bombard. This gives them a decent chance of taking a HP off a unit on defense. As it is now, it's more or less a fluke when it happens, and does not really justify putting Archers and such in your stacks (I'm sad to say).

In the AU mod we've always used the full Attack value of the unit. Although this made Archer rushes that much more powerful for the human player, the AI would benefit from it in the long run (especially with Guerillas).

In C3C defensive bombard adds flavor, but is really not all that great strategically.

Dominae

Donegeal · November 29, 2003, 10:34

Flavor? I think it makes it more real. If someone were to charge a castle, the first thing that the castle defendeders would do is shower the incoming armies with arrows. 0-range bombard is an excellent addition.

Alex · November 29, 2003, 12:08

I don't own C3C yet, but I like this change.

Inverse Icarus · November 29, 2003, 15:07

it gives you a reason to build archers when you have swordsmen or horsemen. albiet, they don't hit as often as i'd like, but the fact that an archer in a stack gets a free shot is awesome. that 1 HP can really make a huge difference.

asleepathewheel · November 29, 2003, 18:43

A nifty little change that adds to the game IMO.

(and it reveals to me how many archers I have to take out after the defending spears and swords)

Dominae · November 29, 2003, 19:30

Quote:

Originally posted by donegeal
Flavor? I think it makes it more real. If someone were to charge a castle, the first thing that the castle defendeders would do is shower the incoming armies with arrows. 0-range bombard is an excellent addition.

That's right, flavor.

Unless you show me a game in which the Archers' ability actually turns the tide of battle, I stand by my statement that it adds nothing more than "coolness" (i.e. flavor). If you want the defensive first-strike ability to be meaningful in battle, you need to give Archers, Longbowmen, etc. their full Attack value in Bombard strength.

Mind you, I'm glad this is in the game now. It's just that I'm not as excited about it as I could have been.

Dominae

MrWhereItsAt · November 29, 2003, 21:35

I think I agree with Dom here - it's a small concession to what Archers would have actually done. A neat idea, and interesting, but ultimately I have yet to see it make much of a difference.

Fried-Psitalon · November 29, 2003, 22:45

Typical single-player junkies.

In MP, where all bombarding units fire at the first attacker until it is at one health, you see a stack of 10 archers routinely crushing the first few swords that arrive - a stack of 15 or so Babylonian Bowmen are now *really* frightening as a pillage-and-disrupt force because they're so hard to drive out!

MrWhereItsAt · November 30, 2003, 05:43

Well that sounds excellent if you live in the part of the world where MP is an easy option.

Fried-Psitalon · November 30, 2003, 08:12

Mr.WIA- depending on your connection, your location is just fine - one of the main beta testers was from you area and had dial up; couldn't do much more than 4 players, but with DSL people in that area have been playing on the ladder just fine.

MoonWolf · November 30, 2003, 10:32

I like that they have finally included defensive bombardment (I've already had it in my mod for a long time). It add some realism to the archery units. I still think they miss some abilities though... Like they should get a high defensive bonus if they were attacked on a grassland by non-range-attackers as they're able to let arrows rains down on the attackers from a long distance.

At distance, archers are to be feared, but once you get close they're doomed (unless they're called Legolas or Aragorn

)

Snotty · November 30, 2003, 13:30

Quote:

(unless they're called Legolas or Aragorn )

Yes, it would be too much to let our archers ignore move penalty for mountains as they snowboard down them on shields

Whats the score with multiple defensive bombards? I thought it was one per attack, but Fried-Psitalon implies otherwise.

Algernon Pondlife · November 30, 2003, 14:24

Quote:

I was not a big fan of it in AU mod and I still feel the same. It is not so big a deal that I would complain either. I am not fond of these types of changes in games. I guess it does not matter if you never play PTW or CivIII after getting C3C.

I don't understand. I've been using this for months in PTW. Or am I dreaming? - no I can't be; I've only had C3C since Saturday morning.

It does make a difference in defence and it is on a realistic scale; a charging group only meets a limited number of salvos from archers before engaging, whereas a static group will suffer much more from a well positioned archer offensive. So if it only sometimes has an important effect that is exactly right. Over time and enough engagements it will have proved a certain statistical impact on a campaign.

Fried-Psitalon · November 30, 2003, 15:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Snotty

Quote:

(unless they're called Legolas or Aragorn )

Yes, it would be too much to let our archers ignore move penalty for mountains as they snowboard down them on shields

Whats the score with multiple defensive bombards? I thought it was one per attack, but Fried-Psitalon implies otherwise.

Bombardment runs on different rules in multiplayer. Example:

5 Swords attack 5 spears backed by 5 catapults.

In single player, this would proceed:

Sword A attacks, Catapult A fires, Spear A defends.
Sword B attacks, Catapult B fires, Spear B defends.

And so on.

In multiplayer, however, all bombarding units fire at once until the defending unit is reduced to minimum health for that bombarding unit. (Phrased that way deliberately, as you'll see below.)

So returning to the example:

Regular Sword A attacks-
Catapults A through E trigger. A fires - a hit! B fires- a hit! C,D,E do nothing. Spear A defends.
Regular Sword B attacks - C fires - a miss! D fires - a miss! E fires - a hit! Spear B defends.

Thus, rather than the "spread it out evenly" method of defensive bombardment in SP, in MP bombardment is heaped on the first attackers. This can lead to a very effective "throw a spear/pike/musket/whatever" in the way first strategy to soak up the defensive fire before continuing.

It IS worth noting though, that a stack of Hwacha's can really make for one heck of a defensive guard. 5 Hwachas fire as you move into the square, and then fire again as you attack- and since these are capable of KILLS, it is possible with Hwacha's to make an attack a "null attack" - one that starts but never finishes.

Luckily for modern multiplayer, the Hwacha's attack value was pulled back from artillery level to cannon level, or these lethal rocket launchers would be fearsome indeed.

Class dismissed.

Snotty · November 30, 2003, 16:13

Wow, that really is something to think about with our zero range bombard fun. Those Bab bow stacks really are something to be feared. Thanks for clearing that up.

MrWhereItsAt · November 30, 2003, 18:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
Mr.WIA- depending on your connection, your location is just fine - one of the main beta testers was from you area and had dial up; couldn't do much more than 4 players, but with DSL people in that area have been playing on the ladder just fine.

Timezone, F-P. Timezone is the problem.