Getting Very, Very Angry (n00b Problems)

Colonel E · November 30, 2003, 11:00

Okay, I'm using C3C. My strategy is thus:

1. Pick the Egyptians. Can't live without Religious (for Temples and gov't switcherizing) or Industrious (for faster workers, I usually have tons of workers)
2. Lots of Land Continenents (or Pangea), usually either random or average climate, Standard, Large, or Huge. Warlord.
3. Build city immediately. Send out worker to build road to a new city site and explore . Research Bronze Working for Spearmen. Build Warrior. Set budget to 0.10.0.
4. Build new cities, especially near luxuries. Have capitol build pyramids early on. Can't live without Pyramids, was the same way in Civ2 and original Civ3.
5. In cities, build spearmen, workers, and settlers (as needed) until I have about ten cities. Then go ahead and start building temples, courthouses, and marketplaces.
6. By now I have to bump down to 2.8.0 or the like. Go ahead and make a beeline for Monarchy.
7. Enter the Medeval (sp?) age. Go for Gunpowder, then Theology, then Democracy. Continue to expand.
8. Quit because some huge nation has invaded and destroyed you PLUS you're far behind in technology PLUS you have no luxuries PLUS you don't have the pyramids PLUS you don't have the Statue of Zeus PLUS corruption is eating away pretty much all of your trade PLUS you lack any resources needed to build musketeers.

What am I doing wrong? I've been playing Civ games for about ten years.

ducki · November 30, 2003, 11:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Colonel E
Okay, I'm using C3C. My strategy is thus:

1. Pick the Egyptians. Can't live without Religious (for Temples and gov't switcherizing) or Industrious (for faster workers, I usually have tons of workers)

I used to do that - it's a hard habit to break, but try.

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3. Build city immediately. Send out worker to build road to a new city site and explore . Research Bronze Working for Spearmen. Build Warrior. Set budget to 0.10.0.

Eek! Have the worker mine and road 2 squares - hopefully shielded grassland. Mine first since you're so fast.
Research Pottery at 100%. Build Warrior(explore), Warrior(garrison), prebuild for Granary-Granary, Settler.
I would never explore with my worker.

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8. Quit because some huge nation has invaded and destroyed you PLUS you're far behind in technology PLUS you have no luxuries PLUS you don't have the pyramids PLUS you don't have the Statue of Zeus PLUS corruption is eating away pretty much all of your trade PLUS you lack any resources needed to build musketeers.

What am I doing wrong? I've been playing Civ games for about ten years.

This is a puzzler. At Warlord, if you are trading with the other civs and keeping them poor, it should be fairly easy to get a tech lead in Ancient and keep it until you win.

Maybe you aren't warring enough. (Theseus - did I just say that?

)

Vlad Antlerkov · November 30, 2003, 12:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Colonel E
2. Lots of Land Continenents (or Pangea), usually either random or average climate, Standard, Large, or Huge. Warlord.
...
5. In cities, build spearmen, workers, and settlers (as needed) until I have about ten cities. Then go ahead and start building temples, courthouses, and marketplaces.

Actually, this is probably your big problem. On Warlord, you should be able to get more than 10 cities easily on a standard map. Due to the human player's advantages, 10 cities on a standard map CAN be enough sometimes to maintain a tech lead. But 10 cities on a large or huge map?

BUILD. MORE. CITIES. Don't stop just because the FP popup appears, you can support twice as many cities without corruption becoming a massively critical problem. (Unless you build in really remote locations.)

Maybe you could post some saves or screenies of your typical game? (Since you'll ask about the attachments... look at "attach file", right above "submit reply.")

And speaking about the Pyramids... IMHO, on lower difficulty levels, you shouldn't have a problem getting it, unless you try for it in a city with lots of floodplain tiles.

Don't be afraid to try for it in a city that isn't your capital.

CerberusIV · November 30, 2003, 12:46

Build warror, warrior, warrior, settler. First warrior explores, second warrior garrisons capital. Third warrior explores a bit then garrisons second city founded with settler. Replace warriors with spearmen as garrisons ASAP. Warriors then continue to explore and deal with barbarians until archers are available.

The point is to explore quickly and contact the other civs, especially as communications can't be traded until printing press. Also identify the area of land you wish to occupy and any choke points on the borders. After 2 or 3 cities near your capital start on what will be your initial border cities.

Establish trade with the AI's and keep your military up to the mark (easy enough on warlord). Then they should leave you alone.

You need to research the techs the AI doesn't. That way you can hawk something like currency around several AI's on the same turn and get 3 or 4 other techs for it easily.

Try a different civ. Everyone has their own style of play and just because the Egyptians are a fairly good civ doesn't mean you are getting the best out of them if they don't really suit you.

Donegeal · November 30, 2003, 18:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Colonel E
4. Build new cities, especially near luxuries. Have capitol build pyramids early on. Can't live without Pyramids, was the same way in Civ2 and original Civ3.

It sounds like your city placement might need a little tweaking. Just because there is a fur resource a little bit further down does NOT mean you should have to over extend yourself to get. The best city placement strat (the one I typically use) is City, tile, tile, City. Change this to C,T,T,T,C later on. Somepeople like to play with "Perfect" city placement. Overlap happens, don't worry about it.

No need to steal the Pryramids. If you go for the Warrior, Warrior, Granery, Settler, settler, settler (etc) strat, you expand very quickly with only one granery.

Typically, I use my capitol as an early settler pump. The first city I build is either a "Worker Farm" (Builds granery then nothing but workers until MUCH later in the game) if there is a good source of high food tiles (Cattle, Wheat, Flood plains), or a Defender Farm (builds barracks then nothing but defenders/units until much later in the game) with a city site with some bonus grass/forest tiles. At 20 shields for a spear, a pop three city with two bonus grass and a forest can build a spear every three turns. If there is another good food site available, I will then build a second "Settler Pump" (granery, settler, settler.....) and switch my capital to "special" things (like wonders or an early marketplace/library).

I would also like to recomend warring. If there is one advantage that a human player has over the AI, it war. No AI program can out think a human when there are so many aspects to consider. And just to confuse things, go for republic, not Monarchy. Yes there is a War Weariness problem in Republic, but if you plan out your assults, have set goals and strike quickly, it will not be a problem.

Good luck!

sprudl · November 30, 2003, 19:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Colonel E
Okay, I'm using C3C. My strategy is thus:

1. Pick the Egyptians. Can't live without Religious (for Temples and gov't switcherizing) or Industrious (for faster workers, I usually have tons of workers)

I used to do that too. Ind/Rel is a nice combo but you can have very enjoyable games with any civ. Switching to random civ selection made my strategy more flexible.

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4. Build new cities, especially near luxuries. Have capitol build pyramids early on. Can't live without Pyramids, was the same way in Civ2 and original Civ3.

I don't even try to build the Pyramids anymore. In my first games I did, but it drained too much resources and when I did get them I noticed the rapid city growth caused too much happiness problems. That probably won't be a problem on Warlord.
A couple of granaries are enough.

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5. In cities, build spearmen, workers, and settlers (as needed) until I have about ten cities. Then go ahead and start building temples, courthouses, and marketplaces.

Don't blindly build everything everywhere. Specialize cities: some build settlers, others build military units, ... You can rotate these duties and build basic infrastructure (temples, ...) in all cities. Maybe prepare some cities for Wonder building (emphasis on shields, not food and don't drain population).

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What am I doing wrong? I've been playing Civ games for about ten years.

This may be the biggest problem of all: forget those 10 years. Old strategies don't work as well anymore.

MrWhereItsAt · November 30, 2003, 21:08

The name of the game is always settlers + workers + accompanying garrisons as long as you have land left to settle. If you happen to manage to do this and have a city or two you can devote to a Wonder or two without slowing down your settlement pace much - terrific! But Wonders are NOT necessary, especially in the Ancient Era. I almost never get any Wonders in this era at Monarch level (I am just starting that level), and instead concentrate on giving myself enough good terrain and cities to try for the Medieval ones (the really good ones like Sistine's, or Leo's if you are planning on wars).

I VERY rarely even try for the Pyramids - so much easier to build a few Granaries where you need them and then capture the Pyramids in the mid-late Medieval.

Colonel E · November 30, 2003, 21:42

Thanks for all the help, people. I wasn't expecting such copious responses...

I do try and settle as quickly as possible, don't get me wrong, it's just that I slow once I reach a certain point... guess I won't be doing that any more.

Thoth · November 30, 2003, 21:44

Try spending the sheilds that you would normally spend on the Pyramids on Baracks and units instead. Beat up on a couple of AI civs early-ish (if you're lucky, your neighbour will build the Pyramids for you

If you're planning on building during the Middle Ages, try Republic instead of Monarchy. The trade bonus more than makes up for the unit upkeep increase.

Mad Bomber · November 30, 2003, 22:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Colonel E
Okay, I'm using C3C. My strategy is thus:

1. Pick the Egyptians. Can't live without Religious (for Temples and gov't switcherizing) or Industrious (for faster workers, I usually have tons of workers)

I like the egyptians, there a good choice for a newbie (I prefer the americans myself)

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2. Lots of Land Continenents (or Pangea), usually either random or average climate, Standard, Large, or Huge. Warlord.)

OK Warlord isn't a huge challange.....

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3. Build city immediately. Send out worker to build road to a new city site and explore . Research Bronze Working for Spearmen. Build Warrior. Set budget to 0.10.0.

Minimum science??? Perhaps for the first turn or two but after you get your second city up and running you should up the science rate (maximum rate for profit) At warlord you should be doing at least 45% of the research. Never, ever do you want to research at a level where research is not being done. (you should at least be researching at the 50 turn minimum)

The worker exploring is definately a bonehead move. When you start out build 4 explorer units (scouts, warriors, or if you are lucky a UU that can move 2) Move the explorers NW, SW, SE, and NE. and then move them as the situation dictates.Also build a unit for a garrison. After that is completed you should be able to build a settler. Follow with worker, then start building the pyramids. The settler founds your second city and produces a settler to build your third city. Rinse and repeat...Make sure you build workers (one per city is a minimum)

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4. Build new cities, especially near luxuries. Have capitol build pyramids early on. Can't live without Pyramids, was the same way in Civ2 and original Civ3.

even better is to build cities on luxuries or gold. Pyramids are nice and you should be able to build them on Warlord. But so is the Colossus, Temple of Zeus, and The Great Library. On anything but a pangea map, the Great Lighthouse is CRITICAL if you are playing C3C.

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5. In cities, build spearmen, workers, and settlers (as needed) until I have about ten cities. Then go ahead and start building temples, courthouses, and marketplaces.

Don't wait to build necessary improvements you are losing a lot of culture and commerce by doing this.

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6. By now I have to bump down to 2.8.0 or the like. Go ahead and make a beeline for Monarchy.

Prefer the Republic. I beeline to this and let my explorers find most of the other techs (Alpahabet-Writing-Mapmaking-Philosophy- (Literature)- Code Of Laws -Republic)

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7. Enter the Medeval (sp?) age. Go for Gunpowder, then Theology, then Democracy. Continue to expand.

Feudalism-Engineering-Invention-Monotheism-Chivalry (optional)- Theology-Education) is my prefered path here, it leads you to the maximum # of scientific and commercial improvements in the minimum amout of time (if you need GP you can usually trade for it for a reasonable price)

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8. Quit because some huge nation has invaded and destroyed you PLUS you're far behind in technology PLUS you have no luxuries PLUS you don't have the pyramids PLUS you don't have the Statue of Zeus PLUS corruption is eating away pretty much all of your trade PLUS you lack any resources needed to build musketeers.

What am I doing wrong? I've been playing Civ games for about ten years.

By the late midieval (on warlord) you should be the biggest, baddest SOB on the block. If you cant expand then unleash the dogs of war!

If you still have trouble then post a save and I am sure some friendly folk's around here can give you some feedback.

Dis · November 30, 2003, 23:28

building a granary in your capitol is the fastest way to expand I found out. Even if you plan on building pyramids later I suggest a granary in your capitol.

The build list above is a good one. Build 2 warriors, build granary and then start shelling out settlers.

Build lots of cities not too far apart. Worry about building spearman until later. Get those settlers and warriors out first.

Dis · November 30, 2003, 23:39

one more piece of advice that is probably the most important.

Try to avoid having your military be "weak" compared to the other ai civs (especially the ones right next to you). You can see this in the military advisor screen (you have to select the appropiate civ) or when in communications with that paticular civ (just look at the upper right bubble comments).

If the ai senses you are weaker than him, they will strike. You can have all the culture and tech in the world (as I found out several times), but if your military is weak, the ai will attack.

this used to be a big problem for me. Because I used to be too busy building city improvements to build a military. As has been said above, just dedicate one city to building military units. Don't build improvements here (except maybe a temple- I like to at least have a temple). The perfectionist in me doesn't like having cities without basic improvements. But the scenarios with Conquests taught me that sometimes you have to bite the bullet and shell out military units above all else.

sprudl · December 1, 2003, 02:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Colonel E
Thanks for all the help, people. I wasn't expecting such copious responses...

I do try and settle as quickly as possible, don't get me wrong, it's just that I slow once I reach a certain point... guess I won't be doing that any more.

Depending on the map you can sometimes seal off a piece of land with units and/or cities at narrow passages. This prevents the AI from settling there immediately and you can settle that part at a later time. This way you can expand towards your neighbours first and thus deny them even more land.

Don't forget to settle the "backyard" though. Any land based blockades will be circumvented by galleys. It just buys you time... and possibly a crucial edge.

To pull this off you need to explore a lot. The expansionist trait makes this even easier.

MINNJPN · December 1, 2003, 16:04

Become the hunter, not the hunted. Build 6 or seven cities on a standard map with barracks in at least 4 of them. Build mines around these 4 cities to get shield production up.Build temples in 1/2 to 2/3 of your cities to make civs you conquer less distainfull of your culture(and hopefully avoiding overthrows of cities you conquer). I set my science to the max while researching Bronze and Iron, then drop it to 10%. At this point I will extort what I need when I take 2 cities from the civs around me( concentrate on their Capitals), then build a Temple right away in each city you take. It pacifies the natives and gives you culture points. I have found swordsmen to be a great early attack- defence combo, especially the Persians. I don't bother trying to build early wonders, if you have the the original civ 3(not Conquests), you should get enough GLs to rush build the most important wonders. Don't sit back after your initial attacks, to win takes a continual series of wars. I generally have caught up in tech after the extortions, then reset to 50% science and 10% lux. I use the extra gold to continually upgrade my troops. After becoming the dominate force( most land, most cities), you can decde if you want a cultural victory, spaceship, or my personal favorite--domination. The gist of this is attack, and attack often, and don't sit back letting the AI dictate the course of events. Sorry if this became a rambling dissertation.

Colonel E · December 1, 2003, 20:20

Wow! Even more help!

Okay, here's what has happened:

1. Start a new game. Large map, land-y contientents. Random Civ for me, all slots filled.

2. Okay, I'm the Ottomans. Set everything up then build a warrior and two spearmen.

3. Expand. Granary in capitol, settler factories, etc.

4. Expand. Build a few specialized cities.

5. Okay, out of space. (about 20 cities) Concentrating on perfecting.

It's going pretty well so far... plus I'm trading tech a LOT more so I'm more ahead here... I'm a Monarchy.

vmxa1 · December 1, 2003, 23:10

Slap up a screen shot or two so we can see what is happening.

conmcb25 · December 2, 2003, 00:26

Yes, we demand screenies!

Dis · December 2, 2003, 07:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Colonel E
Wow! Even more help!

Okay, here's what has happened:

1. Start a new game. Large map, land-y contientents. Random Civ for me, all slots filled.

2. Okay, I'm the Ottomans. Set everything up then build a warrior and two spearmen.

3. Expand. Granary in capitol, settler factories, etc.

4. Expand. Build a few specialized cities.

5. Okay, out of space. (about 20 cities) Concentrating on perfecting.

It's going pretty well so far... plus I'm trading tech a LOT more so I'm more ahead here... I'm a Monarchy.

sounds good, just don't neglect your defenses. The ai has a nasty habit of hitting you at the worst possible time.

Colonel E · December 2, 2003, 21:06

I'll put a screenie up just as soon as I get a chance to boot to Windows...

Okay, I've advanced a little bit. I got LW and fought a war with the Persians, which I got two cities out of.

Gunpowder, here I come!

And really, thanks for all the help...

Colonel E · December 2, 2003, 23:41

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Colonel%20E/apoly.jpg

I have two others but it's late...

Mad Bomber · December 3, 2003, 00:56

Not a bad start.

Gunpowder is overrated..... You can get it from the AI whenever you need it. Look at the next wonders comming up (Sistines, Copernicus, Smith's, Magellan) and a new government you may want. The only reason to research the lower tier first is if you are beelineing to cav (since you have universities, this is not the case) The only wonder on the lowest tier is Newtons and you should be able to grab that first if you research the upper tier techs first.

Don't forget to BUILD WORKERS

its the one unit newbies forget to build. Some of your cities look under developed.

The marsh should be drained and you could fit a city right in the middle of the muck when you get it drained.

Keep us updated!

vmxa1 · December 3, 2003, 01:13

Colonel E you ccan post them inline within this thread, no need to upload them and link.

Use the reply post button and just below the text area you can see the browse button. Use this to point to the jpeg on your system and it will be hosted here.

vmxa1 · December 3, 2003, 01:15

Man that is a lot of marsh you have. Anyway you may want to consider a tighter spacing between cities. You will have less land that is never to be used, less distance for the workers to travel so early in the game. It will be easier to defend.

Donegeal · December 3, 2003, 03:30

Keep pumping out those knights! They upgrade to the powerful Saphai. Also, I don't know what your military looks like, but I would suggest building trebechets.... lots and lots of trebechets (and lots, and lots, and lots, and lots, and lots, etc). Ok, if you don't have C3C, then build Catapults. LOTS of catapults.

vmxa1 · December 3, 2003, 14:03

It is C3C or there would not be any marshes.

planetfall · December 3, 2003, 18:38

Don't know about the older versions of civ, but your play style does not match with how C3 works.

Besides closer cities, where are your roads? No roads equals reduced commerce.

Istanbul, pop 12, tiles with roads 10, wasted tiles 2
Antalya, pop 9, roaded tiles 4. wasted tiles 5
Sivas, pop 6, roaded tiles 4,wasted 2
Uskudar pop 7, is good
Edrine pop 6, roaded 5, is close

On the good side, your mini map looks promising. It is early, you have land and need to fill in the capital area a bit, but I would suggest roads first.

Oh, because of bug, you may want to wait on FP until next patch.

-- PF

Colonel E · December 3, 2003, 22:33

Here's my latest screenshot... thanks again for all the help...

(No, I don't see the "browse" button, sorry! Using Firebird on Windows 2000)

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Colonel%20E/apoly5.jpg

vmxa1 · December 3, 2003, 22:53

The city (size 10) that has a harbor and a barracks does not have any mines. Before you get hospitals most tiels should be mined. Irrigate when you have to to get enough food to grow or you have a tile that will not benefit from mining.

When you selec "post reply as oppossed to the quick reply. You should have a browse selection below where you are writing. Use it to point to the file.