War Weariness.

[UnOrthOdOx]

It has become abundantly clear that this forum cannot sustain the likes of roleplaying, poetry, or stories.

I MAY at some point decide to continue the story I started, I am still taking notes, but at this point, given the attitudes expressed both in private and in public, it is no longer worth it to me to upset so many members.

For now, though, I have a purpose that is no longer to wirte stories or to entertain, for it has been made abundantly clear to me that now is not the time for such things. Perhaps when the game is over and done, who knows. My new purpose, though, will be hidden well away in the recesses of the private forum so that it is sure to not offend, rest assured.

That said,

I think there are some members here who need to remember that there is such a thing as roleplaying, there is such a thing as Poly members who are watching THIS forum to get information on what is GOING ON. These members belong not to a team, but are interested just the same.

Roleplaying, poetry, and fun posts are made for the benefit of THEM. They are meant to be entertaining. Not as a need to promote oneself or to 'rub it in'. Get a grip.

[badams52]

As an observer, I miss the stories in the public forum that give a sense of what's going on in the game.

[vulture]

If you don't mind me disagreeing with you Unortho, I think that stories, poems, and to some extent roleplaying are just what this forum needs. I've always enjoyed the Trappings stuff you've written, and would be sad to see it go for good. And I don't think anyone on any team has had a problem with anything you've written.

The problem, from where I stand, is that everyone has a different idea of what is fun, and what isn't. I'm sure some of the 'worst' posts in the general forum have been considered by their authors to be light hearted fun, or great humour. For me, it's like I'm playing a quiet, civilized game of chess. I make a mistake, and lose a bishop, and my opponent jumps up and starts yelling "You're a stupid c**t, and you suck at this game!", and then going on about it for ten minutes.

Obviously, i'm exaggerating for effect.

By nature I tend to be quiet, and (I hope) polite. My sense of humour could either be described as 'subtle', or 'terribly dull', depending on your point of view. So I don't find much of what is written in the public forum to be of interest to me (aside from what I wrote myself ). So I tend not to read it or respond to it, although I'm sure there have been exceptions where I have. I suspect many other GS members have approached this game more in the spirit of a civilized game of chess , but have been more inclined than me to speak out when they crash headlong into someone with a very different idea of what the game is about. (You could take the chess analogy further as an explanation of why we've been neglectful of diplomacy on the whole if you were so inclined).

Anyway, I rarely read this forum now, because doing so makes the game far less fun for me. I'm not very involved in the game at the moment anyway, which is at least partly due to the mudfights here previously (which GS members have always been the paragons of virtue in either).

There is another school of thought that getting your arse handed to you in a protracted war is also a good fun-killer, and it is kind of depressing trying to get motivated into a game where the war isn't making any progress, and occasionally going backwards for us. At least I get the vicarious justification of being opposed to the alliance with RP in the first place. Lego must be laughing all the way home...

Hey, I've an idea. If ND and GoW just let us win this war and conquer all of Bob, then I'm sure everyone in GS will be much happier, and we can all go back to enjoying the game again

[GhengisFarb™]

@vulture:

You're a stupid c**t, and you suck at posting!

-just kidding.

[vulture]

Well that's it. I'm taking my ball and going home now.

WAAHHHH!!!

[Shiber]

I'm telling my momma.

[GhengisFarb™]

Sheesh, now I'm going to get grounded.

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by vulture
I suspect many other GS members have approached this game more in the spirit of a civilized game of chess , but have been more inclined than me to speak out when they crash headlong into someone with a very different idea of what the game is about. (You could take the chess analogy further as an explanation of why we've been neglectful of diplomacy on the whole if you were so inclined).

That's the best description of GS I have ever heard.

GS has every right to play their chosen style.
No-one could ever or has ever claimed that GS are ruining this game by playing a quiet determined professional game.

However, this game was open to all comers.
We all came with different views as to what this game is like, how it should be managed, what tactics should be used, and what the public forum can be used for.

Many of us enjoy the poem competitions, the Book of Grog, The War Chicken stories, Crystal Clear Reporting, the awards, the self destruction of Lux, the voxidus stories, Vels Spite & Malice thread, the Roleplayers, the passionate arguments of what is aggression, the "is a MPP a NAP?" discussion, and even lighthearted mudslinging.

IMO, it is far easier for the chess players of every team, to ignore the public forum, than it is for the more vocal and passionate writers to be forced stop playing because the chess players dont like it.

Everyone should be allowed their own play style.

[Harovan]

I find Unorthodox' decision wise. Yea stop it.

[Panzer32]

we wouldn't want any more fun to get in here, would we.

[badams52]

I fail to understand you Sir Ralph.

You have admitted to not be "much of a chatter," "only occasionally enjoy role playing," and "hate trash talking."

Given that these are your true feelings, why do you decide to even read this forum? It's obvious from your posts that you hate everything that goes on here, so why do you bother to read them and get yourself upset over what is being said?

Could you be happier and enjoy the game more if you only concentrated on the game play and let others worry about the trash talking and the like?

[Harovan]

Originally posted by badams52
I fail to understand you Sir Ralph.

I'm sorry, but I doubt I can help it. By the way, neither do I understand your complaints.

You have admitted to not be "much of a chatter," "only occasionally enjoy role playing," and "hate trash talking."

Yes. Especially with personal attacks involved.

Given that these are your true feelings,

Yes.

why do you decide to even read this forum?

Because it's the public forum and often contains (or at least contained in the past) useful game related informations and discussions about bugs (there already were quite a few of them). In the last months, it got more and more quiet, anyway.

It's obvious from your posts that you hate everything that goes on here,

No. There were enough funny threads without personal attacks. Unorthodox' Trappings were good, at least the first two or three I still read. I stopped to read them not because I hate them, like you dare to insinuate, but just because I find it tiresome to read through long tales written not in my native language. That's the case for other forums too, including the strategy forum. Want a 90% chance that I will not read a thread? Just make the opening post over a screen long. Then I will read it only if the subject really interests me.

I agreed to Unorthodox' proposal to stop for now, because he's very upset himself (enraged would be a better word, just read the other thread), which without doubt would show in his stories. They do not deserve to be degenerated into hate tirades. He should continue, after he calmed down. No doubt he will, it's not the first time he gets that angry.

so why do you bother to read them and get yourself upset over what is being said?

I'm already ignoring people who deliberately offend others, and don't respond to their posts. This is not limited to this game anymore. It works.

Could you be happier and enjoy the game more if you only concentrated on the game play and let others worry about the trash talking and the like?

Like I said above, you can't play the game out of the ivory tower.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Trust me, I'm not 'enraged'.

Just been bottled up for well over 2 months now. And yes, this is largely the reason no new Trappings have been posted for some time now. The thing with Darekill just set me off because this is something that has been happening to me ever since I started the Gazette. I'm sick of it, and I don't want anyone else to need go through anything aproaching the level of animosity that follows nearly everything I start to write.

I honestly don't know if it's worth it to me to write at Poly anymore because of it, but I'll be damned if I sit back and watch someone else picked apart over creative submissions.

Between GF getting banned over the TruthOmeter and this with Darekill, it just set me off. I can take more happening to me than I can watching it happen to others.

[Arrian]

I don't want anyone else to need go through anything aproaching the level of animosity that follows nearly everything I start to write.

It's news to me (that your writings have aroused animosity).

to Vulture for the chess analogy, by the way.

However, my own interest in this game didn't actually wane due to what went on here in the public forum. That had an effect, but by far more important were two other factors: 1) the sheer size of our empire & number of units we have to deal with. When Nathan & Aeson left, it suddenly occurred to me how much *work* it takes to play a turn. 2) War weariness. GS has been at war almost non-stop since Vox hit us with Immortal Beloved. I'm sick of fighting. I actually enjoyed the building more, despite being one of our generals (a general, I might add, who should probably resign, since I've been slacking).

-Arrian

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Between GF getting banned over the TruthOmeter and this with Darekill, it just set me off. I can take more happening to me than I can watching it happen to others.

He got banned over that?

Jesus Christ.

[Arrian]

Didn't he get banned due to the upload policy, though (having Truthometer images uploaded to the server)? That's my recollection of it. It's not like somebody reported him and whined to the mods about the Truthometer. Obviously, one can debate the merits of the decision to ban him for that, but I don't really see how it ties in to people complaining about Trappings.

-Arrian

[Harovan]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Trust me, I'm not 'enraged'.

Oh trust me, you are. Sleep over it, read the thread tomorrow and you will see.

Just been bottled up for well over 2 months now. And yes, this is largely the reason no new Trappings have been posted for some time now. The thing with Darekill just set me off because this is something that has been happening to me ever since I started the Gazette. I'm sick of it, and I don't want anyone else to need go through anything aproaching the level of animosity that follows nearly everything I start to write.

What buggers me, to be honest, is that you make a "GS public announcement" out of anything one of our members says, even though others like asleepathewheel and myself actually disagreed. You project your rage over one post swiftly on the whole team. Would you like to be treated the same way, having any BS one of your members writes, projected at you?

By the way, despite that I haven't been very interested to read your Trappings (or any other poetry, for that matter), I do not recall a *****ing and moaning over them everytime. Don't you exaggerate here a bit?

I honestly don't know if it's worth it to me to write at Poly anymore because of it, but I'll be damned if I sit back and watch someone else picked apart over creative submissions.

Write, but only whilst not in rage.

Between GF getting banned over the TruthOmeter and this with Darekill, it just set me off. I can take more happening to me than I can watching it happen to others.

These bannings and reportings remain a mystery for me, and as much as I can see in the discussions in our forum, our other members too. I don't know anyone in our team, whom I would suspect in doing such things. I recall Ghengis being pretty disdainful towards RP this time (calling them incompetent was the least) and I know I criticized him for this, but I would never report such a post to a mod. Neither would, to my knowledge, anyone other in my team.

I actually used this feature once, when "I-iz-1337" invaded the Strategy Forum and spread his wisdom there. The reporting failed, Ming said everyone is entitled to write how he wants (4Lth0u9h it l00k3d re4lly 90|)4\/\/ful \/\/h47 h3 \/\/r0t3), called us spam sharks who deserve PCRs next time, and this discouraged me from using it again.

[Theseus]

This has actually been a pretty reasonable and rational thread.

Will wonders never cease? (and with no SGLs involved, imagine that!)

Keep writing Uno... and vulture, you get to be GS' public face from now on!!

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel

IMO, it is far easier for the chess players of every team, to ignore the public forum, than it is for the more vocal and passionate writers to be forced stop playing because the chess players dont like it.

I thought your post was good, H_E, and was generally fair comment

I quoted the above, as it is an interesting point. I like lively and passionate debate, but hate gratuitous mudslinging.

In the context of a game where we build empires and command armies, roleplaying a nation's emotions with gusto has an obvious appeal. I certainly wouldn't want to discourage anyone from enjoying that, but neither do 'chess players' want to be discouraged from reading reasoned opinion on threads such as this by fear of personal attack.

Nobody on any team can be held responsible for the posts of a team-mate, yet we instinctively rally to our own - and there lies both the appeal and revulsion of playing the game of nationhood.

Having seen the effect of the notorious 'flame wars' on my team, there's no doubt that getting carried away with this pseudo-nationalism has a detrimental effect on the game - unless some people think that RL psy-ops against a fellow PTWDG1 player is somehow appropriate play.

I recently posted on my team's forum that I want to avoid reading unpleasantries on the gen. forum, but I took a risk with this thread and was pleasantly surprised. I'm sure there's other stuff from players on all teams that I'd like to read, but on the whole I won't be going in.

[Theseus]

I also would like to particularly point out H_E's post... a good one.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Arrian
Didn't he get banned due to the upload policy, though (having Truthometer images uploaded to the server)? That's my recollection of it. It's not like somebody reported him and whined to the mods about the Truthometer. Obviously, one can debate the merits of the decision to ban him for that, but I don't really see how it ties in to people complaining about Trappings.

-Arrian

It doesn't, I said before I am feeling a systemic problem with poly as a whole, and a part of the reason I am not sure I will continue writting at Poly at all.

Oh trust me, you are. Sleep over it, read the thread tomorrow and you will see.

I slept on it last night, I slept on it for two months. Believe me, this is mild comparitively.

What buggers me, to be honest, is that you make a "GS public announcement" out of anything one of our members says, even though others like asleepathewheel and myself actually disagreed. You project your rage over one post swiftly on the whole team. Would you like to be treated the same way, having any BS one of your members writes, projected at you?

You find me somewhere a GoW member has called someone posting a creative submission garbage or blamed it for being the 'crap' that has caused GoW to lose it's ability to function and I'll happily accept any criticism that would so rightfully be deserved. I've come here and criticised my own team members publicly before. I would not hesitate to do it in such a case either.

Frankly, it goes beyond the current issue, you need to understand that. It is a history of things that I don't find playing with GS or their style to be fun.

Until recently, and hats off to the current leadership, I honestly have felt that GS has treated us like an AI in negotiations and deals in the game.

You guys want to restore RP, I want to restore Vox. There is a history behind that, and I personally feel a bit obligated to restore Vox to their homeland. Not a team notion by any stretch, and nothing that has been in writing, it just feels right. Like you guys bending over backwards to save RP's *ss. It's not the smartest possible move, perhaps a bit illogical, but you do it and feel a need for it. Same with me and Vox.

By the way, despite that I haven't been very interested to read your Trappings (or any other poetry, for that matter), I do not recall a *****ing and moaning over them everytime. Don't you exaggerate here a bit?

It's a hostility that goes beyond Trappings. It goes WAY back to the Gazette, the failed attempt in the ISDG, the Vallhalla Herald. It's a long history of being either PM'd in what appeared to be organized attacks or being reported and warned. Everything I've tried to write at some point has angered people for no reason I can see. Why should I bother then?

GF wasn't reported, he was told it wasn't 'related' to the game. That is nothing to do with GS, sorry if I didn't make that clear before.

I didn't understand a word of that 1337 stuff.

[GhengisFarb™]

For the record, I was banned for having DemoGame images in the upload area. DemoGames are not civ related.

Anyway a half day later after hounding people I was able to discover I was banned due to the DemoGame images and got the word out to DemoGamers and there was much deleteing from the uploads area.

[Beta]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx


and I personally feel a bit obligated to restore Vox to their homeland. Not a team notion by any stretch, and nothing that has been in writing, it just feels right. Like you guys bending over backwards to save RP's *ss. It's not the smartest possible move, perhaps a bit illogical, but you do it and feel a need for it. Same with me and Vox.

Hello? Beta wakes from his snooze on the lawn chair outside the palace in New Voice and runs in to tell the others.

And Uno - I don't understand a word of that 1337 stuff either.

[Beta]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
For the record, I was banned for having DemoGame images in the upload area. DemoGames are not civ related.

Anyway a half day later after hounding people I was able to discover I was banned due to the DemoGame images and got the word out to DemoGamers and there was much deleteing from the uploads area.

Yup - same thing happened to me. I was trying to upload my Pictoral History stuff - rather than posting it post by post. I saw it as game related .... bzzzzzz ... wrong. Live and learn. But a warning would have been nice. Or even being told why indeed you were banned. And me - such an upstanding citizen. Now Ghengis - you can understand him being banned ....

[Theseus]

I stand against the bannings for ANYTHING to do with DGs. If people would like, I would happily protest to the powers that be (for whatever that would be worth). I very STRONGLY feel that all of the collateral inter-team communication is integral to the new form of the game, and thus relevant to Civ, and thus relevant to 'poly.

I'll go a bit further on that point: DGs should allow for ANYTHING. I have been a voice for peace, I think / hope... but I recognize and support each team's approach, attitude, roleplay, strategy, passion, etc., when it comes to how this thing (i.e., the PTWDG, but extend to all the DGs) is played out. I may not agree with how certain things are done or said.... but they are ALL valid tactics, first, and metagame choices, second.

FINE, and GOOD!! Let us all try to enjoy and gain the most of this thing that we can! Are we not all mature enough to deal with the imbalances and trait differences (HA! Civ Concept), and move on?

There are so many RL examples to point to...

And MarkG, of all, should understand this, given the C3C tournament.

/me waits for the thunderbolt and the clap of banning lightning from the heavens. "Cast me down..."

[badams52]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I'm sorry, but I doubt I can help it. By the way, neither do I understand your complaints.

No. There were enough funny threads without personal attacks. Unorthodox' Trappings were good, at least the first two or three I still read. I stopped to read them not because I hate them, like you dare to insinuate, but just because I find it tiresome to read through long tales written not in my native language.

Ah, yes, well maybe "hate" was the wrong word. But when I've been reading your posts of late, mostly I just remember the times you have complained about the demogames and saying you would never join another and the fun of this one is gone. Which comes across to me as you are only continuing this game out of a sense of obligation, but it's a chore to play though the game.

I guess it's your complaining posts that made me wonder why you bother to continue.

You can say that my complaint was that what I remember reading from your posts most was the complaining you did about your team losing members, how the game is no longer fun, etc. It feels like these same complaints are written often by members of GS.

You also write many entertaining and well written posts, it's just that the complaints are the ones that stick out in my mind most.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
You find me somewhere a GoW member has called someone posting a creative submission garbage or blamed it for being the 'crap' that has caused GoW to lose it's ability to function and I'll happily accept any criticism that would so rightfully be deserved. I've come here and criticised my own team members publicly before. I would not hesitate to do it in such a case either.

Frankly, it goes beyond the current issue, you need to understand that. It is a history of things that I don't find playing with GS or their style to be fun.

If you say I need to understand that, I will try to.

You guys want to restore RP, I want to restore Vox. There is a history behind that, and I personally feel a bit obligated to restore Vox to their homeland. Not a team notion by any stretch, and nothing that has been in writing, it just feels right. Like you guys bending over backwards to save RP's *ss. It's not the smartest possible move, perhaps a bit illogical, but you do it and feel a need for it. Same with me and Vox.

I think this has its merits and is perfectly fine with me. With a word: Bring it, that is why we are playing.

It's a hostility that goes beyond Trappings. It goes WAY back to the Gazette, the failed attempt in the ISDG, the Vallhalla Herald. It's a long history of being either PM'd in what appeared to be organized attacks or being reported and warned. Everything I've tried to write at some point has angered people for no reason I can see. Why should I bother then?

I'm sorry to hear this, but you make me curious. What has happened to the Gazette? Or the Valhalla Herald? And what was the failed attempt in the ISDG? I'm not involved in most of these events and would like to know the whole truth why you hate me, or my team. You need to understand that.

GF wasn't reported, he was told it wasn't 'related' to the game. That is nothing to do with GS, sorry if I didn't make that clear before.

Thank you for clarifying it now.

I didn't understand a word of that 1337 stuff.

Neither did the most of us, since all his (I-iz-1337's) threads were written in this style. Some of us tried to complain, but were told by the management, that everybody is entitled to write how he wants.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by badams52
Ah, yes, well maybe "hate" was the wrong word. But when I've been reading your posts of late, mostly I just remember the times you have complained about the demogames and saying you would never join another and the fun of this one is gone.

I won't join other games.

Which comes across to me as you are only continuing this game out of a sense of obligation, but it's a chore to play though the game.

Yes, that's how it is.

I guess it's your complaining posts that made me wonder why you bother to continue.

If you want me to quit, I will consider it. Thanks for your advice.

You can say that my complaint was that what I remember reading from your posts most was the complaining you did about your team losing members, how the game is no longer fun, etc. It feels like these same complaints are written often by members of GS.

You also write many entertaining and well written posts, it's just that the complaints are the ones that stick out in my mind most.

Everybody is entitled to remember what he wants. You also wrote many good posts, but it are posts like this, that will stick out in my mind most.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I'm sorry to hear this, but you make me curious. What has happened to the Gazette? Or the Valhalla Herald? And what was the failed attempt in the ISDG? I'm not involved in most of these events and would like to know the whole truth why you hate me, or my team. You need to understand that.

The Gazette, some people felt that I was using it specifically to become president/vp/whatever. They managed to fill my pm box with nearly 100/day of very rude content for 3 consecutive days before I complained about it and it was stopped.

The Herald, I have never understood what the problem was, but some people again chose to PM me complaints about it's content and the fact I was simultaneously in the govt.

The ISDG, I wanted to make a more detailed version and wanted to create a web page dedicated to the newspaper. I was accused of either being stupid or trying to leak information to the other teams.

These have nothing to do with GS, but add to my questioning the ability of Poly to support anything I really want to write.

I don't 'hate' GS, certainly not you. I just want you removed from the game, for things that have happened in this game.

Since we first met, I have found your trading practices annoying. From techs to maps to contacts. I looked past that for a while.

THEN, I got involved. I am still spurned by the whole atrocity that was the failed NAP and surrounding deals at that time period. My feelings at the time were posted publicly, and while I chose to once again look beyond this, it has not been forgotten. You blame us, I know. I feel GS is at least equally responsible, and frankly feel my back is a little sore over this whole incident.

Then, GS assisted and has repeatedly assisted RP in utilizing the gifting of cities to warp units. Frankly, I find this revolting and thought GS would have been above this. It is because of this, I feel GS deserves the same kind of treatment in return.

Then came this last round of peace talks. I think the breaking point for me came when GS felt the need to threaten a city before really getting serious. I simply do not, and refuse to, succumb to threats of any nature. GS felt they 'needed a stick and a carrot'. I do not take kindly to sticks.

Lux threatened us, by all rights should have killed us off. We therefore ignored their cries for help.

RP strongarmed us and refused to trade techs, we have therefore declared war on them.

GS felt the need to threaten a city in order to strongarm a peace deal out of us. We have therefore determined GS needs to be removed from Bob. For now. The team still can decide differently later. Myself, I want you gone from the game like I want all those who have threatened us gone.

As an added bonus, we had a deal to assist Vox long ago, it is no secret. I don't like how it was handled, by either side, really, so I would personally like to give them that island as compensation. Not a team stance by any stretch, and an invasion would require far more support than just my team, it's just something I would like to see before we all give up this bug filled game that really has little chance of being played through to completion, frankly.

[Harovan]

These are valid and respectable reasons which I fully acknowledge. It is your right to oppose a peace treaty with us and to demand our destruction. I can see your reason behind this, even though I disagree at some points. At least it is not based on wild allegations and unbacked claims, which is how it seemed to be yesterday. Whether you will be able to do what you want or not, and if so, for what price, is a completely different question. But that is the reason why we play this game and I would never complain about this. I'm sure you also acknowledge my right to do my level best to inflict the most possible damage to your team, because that is why we are in this game.

I'm glad you don't hate me or my team and can assure you, that I hold yourself and the level headed members of your team in the highest possible regard. I may have disagreed with you in some points, and some discussions may have gotten a bit toxic, but you never resorted to trolls and insults and always kept logic and reason in the conversations. So I tried too.

I wish you at heart, that your next creative efforts will have more success than the former, which seem to have failed only due to ignorance and intolerance of a few others. Even though I may not enjoy them myself so much (since they have so little to do with playing chess, you know ), I wish you the best.