War Weariness.

[Togas]

I posted a playful comment in the "RP appreciation thread" but then I dropped down here and read this thread.

I don't understand why Unortho made a RP appreciation thread because GoW pretty much killed any of our appreciation for RP, for our team, or for this game.

Our thread was once filled with stories, jokes, tales, and a good deal of fun. We were a large and active team having a great timing playing a game together. Now it's pretty much over.

I get here and I read Unortho's comment regarding GS

Myself, I want you gone from the game like I want all those who have threatened us gone

...and that's just not going to work. That kind of attitude ruins games. I hear GoW *****ing about how RP was mean to them on a trade deal that happened a half a year ago. We took advantage of the situation and for that we earn a full game vendetta. We must be wiped out. And, worst of all, we get to be slandered and ridiculed until every one of our players just stops playing.

I'm going to stop playing soon.

I'm sick of it. If GoW and even Legoland (Vondrack hates us more than half of the GoW players) can't just grow up and forgive us for whatever stupid things we did a long time ago -- because we've MORE than suffered for whatever sins you think we've commited -- then I'm sick of playing.

You win. We lose. We "got what we deserved." I hope you feel good about yourself. I sure don't.

Because if there's no hope and if this is just one big locked alliance against us and GS, then why play the game anymore? The outcome is already decided.

My people have tried and tried and tried to come up with a way out. GS has tried and tried to find a peaceful solution but the bitterness on GoW remains and we remain holed up in Pamplona with a TON of pikes and catapults just waiting for the seige that never comes.

War weariness? There is noone who feels it worse than we do. Hurt feelings? Yeah. We all got our feelings and our pride hurt at some point in this game. But right now the only team who's fighting for a legit reason is ND. They get a ton of good land. Everyone else is just being roped in because of hatred, loyalty, or pride.

In my heart this game died months ago, and in my mind this game was over about a week or so ago when GoW refused GS's peace agreement.

If you don't see my post in this forum again, don't be surprised. I don't really have anything else to say.

--Togas

[UnOrthOdOx]

We took advantage of the situation and for that we earn a full game vendetta. We must be wiped out. And, worst of all, we get to be slandered and ridiculed until every one of our players just stops playing.

Yes you did take advantage, and yes you did earn a full game vendetta, at least on my part. I don't speak for the team. That is the ROLE I chose to PLAY here in GoW.

or perhaps...to jog your memory, as you suggested when we started, the ROLE you suggested WE PLAY, and we made a civ that:

Originally posted by Togas
heavily punishes transgressors. A civ that has no qualms in taking resources if a fair agreement cannot be reached. A civ that would be an excellent ally, and a horrible enemy.

You wanted it, you got it, now you complain about it.

Honestly I missed any slandering or such. I've had one job here, and little time to do it so haven't ventured into exploring much outside of it. As a result, I have largely either skimmed or ignored many threads that weren't relating to my job as ambassador to GS. If we did this in a case where we weren't getting just as much in return from RP then I am sorry and apologize. If RP was giving as well, though, I say eye for an eye. Preferably whole head for an eye, but I'ld settle for just the eye.

I'm going to stop playing soon.

Sorry to hear that.

If GoW and even Legoland (Vondrack hates us more than half of the GoW players) can't just grow up and forgive us for whatever stupid things we did a long time ago -- because we've MORE than suffered for whatever sins you think we've commited -- then I'm sick of playing.

That's a game decision on my part. I want you removed for one reason:

If you live, you will only be someone's vassal for the rest of the game.

a. I think that is a worse fate than death, and wouldn't even wish that on RP.

b. It sure as all hell won't be OUR vassal, so we would only be strengthening an enemy. Not very smart IN-GAME, is it? We still are trying to win...

I don't know Lego's feelings, truthfully. I haven't really followed that part of the game and have made very few diplomatic contacts with lego at all. And those that were made were for Trappings.

My people have tried and tried and tried to come up with a way out. GS has tried and tried to find a peaceful solution but the bitterness on GoW remains and we remain holed up in Pamplona with a TON of pikes and catapults just waiting for the seige that never comes.

RP tried before, true. GS tried recently, true. What and why we decide is our perogative is it not? Or can we only play the way YOU want?

Because if there's no hope and if this is just one big locked alliance against us and GS, then why play the game anymore? The outcome is already decided.

I wish there was, frankly. It's about the only viable way I could get my wish of invading GS. I am just speaking for me here, not the team.

War weariness? There is noone who feels it worse than we do. Hurt feelings? Yeah. We all got our feelings and our pride hurt at some point in this game. But right now the only team who's fighting for a legit reason is ND. They get a ton of good land. Everyone else is just being roped in because of hatred, loyalty, or pride.

I'm sure you guys got hurt, being on the receiving end. It had to be someone, though. Could have just as easily been us. You have handled it well, I must say, and that is why I was making the appreciation thread. You have no clue what GoW stands to gain from this war, though, so whatever you need to tell yourself is our reasons, feel free.

[Aggie]

Togas, please don't leave.

The RP appreciation thread comes from the respect we have for how you and your team have played. You have held Pamploma already against 1 assault (yes we didn't attack Pamploma, but we were positioning). Even using pike to dislodge us. If that isn't the stuff of stories, what is. Your ally made a valiant(and sucessful) effort to force us to cancel the final assault(this would be most costly to them). In this they showed their loyalty and friendship to you. If Vox's allies had acted such, they would still be in N estonia.

Many teams knowing the large forces aligned against them would have razed the city to deny their enemies, you have not done that. You have acted well, its just that events(many beyond your controll) doomed your nation as you know it.

If you stay and keep fighting who knows what effect you can have on the game. Just researching a single tech could tilt the balance.

This was the first PTWDG and none of us knew what the results would be, it is very possible, that due to bugs we'll never get a result. But much has been learned both about the game and team mentality. This is but a giant experiment in group dynamic and civ dynamic.

To GS, please do not give up or get discouraged. No matter what you still have a very strong position. Even if we can take bob(something that is not written in stone), their is no guarentee that you won't be able to launch some kind of invasion at a later time. Bob is a large continent, and thus it is hard to defend and prevent landings. So you are in no way out of the game, and even if you can't invade us imagine the difficulty we'll have in invading you. It's almost like a scenario call" fortress Stormia", where nations must try to plan a very difficult invasion against a very strong opponent.

If worse comes to worse realize that some of the best and most brilliant moves come when you are facing defeat. Exteme situations allow extreme solutions and you have the people on you team to come up with just such solutions.

Aggie

[badams52]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
If you want me to quit, I will consider it. Thanks for your advice.

No, I do not want you to quit. I hope that you make the decision that works best for you and for your obligations.

Actually your situation kind of reminds me of what happens with me and my wife when she wants to take a walk and I don't.

If I say 'no' then she get's upset and staying at home with my upset wife is no fun, so that is not an option.

If I say 'yes' she is happy when we begin to talk, but if I'm being surly and unhappy because I didn't want to go and begrudgingly do go, she can easily pick up on that and we will probably have an argument somwhere along the line making our walk unpleasant.

So not going is never an option (she won't walk alone), and going unwillingly makes the walk unpleasant. :sigh: What can I do?

Everybody is entitled to remember what he wants. You also wrote many good posts, but it are posts like this, that will stick out in my mind most.

Ah yes. This is the unfortunate repercussion about emotionally charged posts, or reading a person's posts with emotion attached. If it makes you feel any better Sir Ralph, having had this little discussion has greatly improved both my understanding and my opinion of you. Though what my opinion of you is might not matter much to you, but improving my opinion of you makes me enjoy reading your posts again.

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by Togas
...and that's just not going to work. That kind of attitude ruins games. I hear GoW *****ing about how RP was mean to them on a trade deal that happened a half a year ago. We took advantage of the situation and for that we earn a full game vendetta.

Quite true.. Hopefully you & your team have learnt that human players prefer win-win negotiations. Even the most ignorant warmonger in the GoW team knows that one. Negotiating from a position of strength may work in the real world, but here, there are no consequences of a pixel committing suicide to destroy a road network, or attacking a civ who is not even a neighbour.
So, by bullying us early in the game, you made a long-term enemy.
It’s not really hard to see. Get over it.

Originally posted by Togas
I'm sick of it. If GoW and even Legoland (Vondrack hates us more than half of the GoW players) can't just grow up and forgive us for whatever stupid things we did a long time ago -- because we've MORE than suffered for whatever sins you think we've commited -- then I'm sick of playing.

Obviously you still fail to see it
But keep attacking Vondrack & Lego by all means, it makes our job of convincing them to ally with us oh so much easier.

Originally posted by Togas
Because if there's no hope and if this is just one big locked alliance against us and GS, then why play the game anymore? The outcome is already decided.

Ohh .. and the grand conspiracy theory raises its head again.
Everyone was against GS from the beginning… and now we are all against RP as well.

As I desperately tried to explain to GS 48 hours ago.
You are experiencing the consequences of your in-game actions and decisions.
Nothing more, nothing less.
The historian will show, (at the end of the game & if he gets his HD back to life), GoW’s reason for the war the earlier bullying. ND’s was probably land. I don’t think Lego is at war with RP.
It is not surprising to me that the two teams who have been “ganged up” on also have a history of the worse diplomacy. RP & GS even agree with us that GS sucked.

Originally posted by Togas
My people have tried and tried and tried to come up with a way out. GS has tried and tried to find a peaceful solution but the bitterness on GoW remains and we remain holed up in Pamplona with a TON of pikes and catapults just waiting for the seige that never comes.

Perhaps they failed because we knew we could not leave a team within the game whose leadership and membership hates us so. I get reminded of this every time I read one of BigFree’s posts.
Perhaps they failed because of the perceived need to wave a big stick ?
- GS with their knights.
- RP with their threats many turns ago, of perpetual war and war weariness unless we give them back all their land.
Perhaps we valued our friendship and the trustworthiness of ND more ?
Perhaps it gave Unorthodox’s anti-paladan roleplaying character far better writing material.
Every GoW member had his own personal and differing reason to vote for or against the peace offers.
Assuming it is a vendetta is foolish.

Originally posted by Togas
War weariness? There is noone who feels it worse than we do. Hurt feelings? Yeah. We all got our feelings and our pride hurt at some point in this game. But right now the only team who's fighting for a legit reason is ND. They get a ton of good land. Everyone else is just being roped in because of hatred, loyalty, or pride.

In GoW’s PoV, we also fight for a very legitimate reason. You fail to accept it even though we have explained it many times over. If you don’t see it, you will always maintain a deep hatred for what you don’t understand.
And while you and your team has that hatred, I doubt we could ever have true in-game peace.

[Theseus]

I have a general question that the more, uh, emotive posters might be able to answer for me.

We all want to win, or otherwise finish out our civ's role in the game in a satisfactory fashion, yes?

Then why the death threats and vendettas?

Don't things geo-political change over time, requiring a re-assessment of strategy? Additionally, is it not possible for people / teams to change over time and given lessons learned, thus providing for new or re-shaped relationships?

I mean, we are waaaaay beyond roleplay here, so that ain't it.

It just seems counter-productive... color me curious.

(But maybe that's me being a GS robot again ).

And, btw:

"Shane.... (oops)

"Togas, come back... come back, Togas!!"

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
Quite true.. Hopefully you & your team have learnt that human players prefer win-win negotiations.

I know you are referring to RP, but you have said similar things about GS. Maybe I'm mistaken, but GS has at least, always offered what we thought were fair deals. Maybe they weren't, but we always went to great efforts to offer balanced trades. If I'm incorrect (would not be suprising) please refer me to specific instances and I will change my tune.

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
Obviously you still fail to see it
But keep attacking Vondrack & Lego by all means, it makes our job of convincing them to ally with us oh so much easier.

You are already allied, aren't you? I mean, they have sworn to defend your land, what more do you want? Its not like you need their knights in the south to finish off Spain. That said, I'm not sure why they were brought into the conversation.

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
The historian will show, (at the end of the game & if he gets his HD back to life), GoW’s reason for the war the earlier bullying. ND’s was probably land. I don’t think Lego is at war with RP.

I think we're all looking forward to that, if it ever comes about (knock on wood).

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
It is not surprising to me that the two teams who have been “ganged up” on also have a history of the worse diplomacy. RP & GS even agree with us that GS sucked.

Frankly, GS has needed better diplomacy. I'm still not sure how or why it was such a spectacular failure early on. That said, I wouldn't be touting GoW's diplomatic prowess either, after all it failed to keep us out of entering the war, didn't it? I think you would agree that our entrance into the war has prolonged it significantly, as well as possibly putting out of reach the elimination of RolePlay, if that's something you were after, I don't know your goals of the matter.

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
Perhaps they failed because of the perceived need to wave a big stick ?
- GS with their knights.

What would you have done in our position? We tried everything else, unless I am again confused. We were clearly losing the war in the south, and your teams could just chip away at us indefinately. What would you have done in our place? If it did hurt our relations, well, it did reveal more clearly the nature of the Lego-GoW-ND relationship, which we would not have known otherwise. So I would take that trade. Again what would you do, just continue to be whittled away in Spain? I'm no Theseus or Aggie, but I'd say that's not a winning strategy.

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
In GoW’s PoV, we also fight for a very legitimate reason.

Just to set the record straight (if it needs straightening ) I (don't know about the rest of GS) certainly don't question that you have a legitimate reason for the war, hell its a game, the reason is to win the game. You play... to win the game. And frankly, I expect a team to try to win and at the very least, live up to its moniker. Anything else wouldn't be right, would it?

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Theseus
Don't things geo-political change over time, requiring a re-assessment of strategy? Additionally, is it not possible for people / teams to change over time and given lessons learned, thus providing for new or re-shaped relationships?

Its possible, isn't it Theseus? After all, RP was once a strong ally of Vox in its war against us, correct? And yet that animosity (great animosity I should add) was put aside, after much hemming and hawing in our forum at least.

And Vox has been cordial to us after our war

That said, 4000 years of bad blood is a lot to get over. Frankly I can't blame people for holding grudges, just human nature, even in a game against friends such as this.

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by Theseus
I have a general question that the more, uh, emotive posters might be able to answer for me.

We all want to win, or otherwise finish out our civ's role in the game in a satisfactory fashion, yes?

Then why the death threats and vendettas?

Don't things geo-political change over time, requiring a re-assessment of strategy? Additionally, is it not possible for people / teams to change over time and given lessons learned, thus providing for new or re-shaped relationships?

The emotive posters only ever get one vote in their teams policy decisions.

Assuming the emotive posters drive policy is wrong. Far more strategy is discussed within GoW that you may be willing to believe.

GoW may roleplay that "Spaniads dont take baths and smell up the continent of Bob", but in-game, there is a strategic reason for each move/alliance/contract we make.

GoW will win the game yes.
And if that means destroying a team (and it's allies ) that we believe will hold a perpetual grudge against us. Then that is what we must do.

In SP, you can beat down an AI and make them a vassal. (Or at least never have to worry about them ever being a threat). I am not convinced that it is possible to always do this in demo games. Humans are far more crafty that that. (Beware the revenge of VOX)

eg..
Is GS absolutley sure that RP (an early vocal disliker of GS policy & GS members in general) dosnt still want to win this game ?
Perhaps the best chance they have got, is to establish a base on Stormia, and sign a contract with GoW for the complete destruction of GS.
RP gives GoW ability to destroy GS.
GoW gives Stormia resettlement rights to RP.
Perhaps with war against RP has been one giant ruse. A fake war ?

What about it Togas ??

[Theseus]

OK... but it doesn't always feel so logical.

BTW, if this WERE all of a stunt... maaaan, I'd be pissed off, but impressed too.

[Master Zen]

EDIT: I had not read the last two pages of the ballad thread before writing this. Now I do understand UnO completely

To be honest, this thread really caught me off guard.

First of all, coming from a forum which has experienced ZERO activity during the last couple of months, I am suddenly startled to see someone post such a major discomformity out of the blue especially since that which was posted in our private forum (which I will not mention) equally came out of nowhere.

I don't know what it is that got UnO so pissed off now, there have been no public annnouncemnts, no troll and flame fests, no accusations of any kind flying around, hell, there's hasn't even been any public news of what is happening in the real game.

What's worse is that this thread has now degenerated into the type of resentment which you are so complaining about, UnO, not in the least because old skeletons are being taken out of the closet for no apparent purpose. I would REALLY want to know what it is that pissed you off so much because frankly, me and practically the rest of GoW at least, has not said anything, nor have I heard anything while chatting with people of other teams. I am truly stumped at the cause of this although having read the thread in the private forum, I know the "why", I just don't know why the hell it was brought up again.

I for one have not seen a single shred of criticism for your Trappings, if this has been in private I truly wonder if it was just the lone voice of one or two loonies or if it was a collective effort by various people. Furthermore, I do not know what happened with your previous publications but you of all people should know the very first rule about journalism: expect to take crap for everything you write, no matter how honest and good-natured the intention was, people will always take it the wrong way.

And speaking of that, I see the old GS and RP issue has been brought up AGAIN, with the same people recycling their old viewpoints and getting nowhere. To Togas, I think you underestimated the long-term impact of certain decisions, espcially since this is a game in which civs have the capacity to exact some sort of revenge in the future. That being said, I honestly doubt RP would EVER forgive GoW/ND for what we did, and frankly, we don't expect you to, which is the reason that UnO wants RP out of the game, not because of any personal issues but because it is not in our interests to keep a team that may seek any future opportunity to inflict whatever sort of damage it can to us, perhaps a negative UN vote as a last resort. What you can't deny however, is that we did in fact give you a chance to end this, I will not reveal the details but you asked us to do more than once what you and GS were unwilling to do yourselves, obviously since "GoW is the backstabbing mercenary liars" you might think we are capable of anything, I guess the latest developments show that there is in fact a cold hard logic to our thinking.

Back to the GS issue, yes, there was, there IS a lot of resentment between GoW and GS, on our part it is the result of all the work getting that old NAP signed and then having it shoved back into our face. Of course, that's just us, and GS obviously thinks it did the righteous and noble thing by defending RP (and expecting a chunck of Bob in the process). Both are equally valid points of view, and they are only "right" or "wrong" depending on who you talk to. Anyway, some of the complaints I've heard is that certain GS members have always shunned the rather heated arguments that go on in the public forum, and that part of the lack of activity nowadays is due to the fact that if any thread of this type is started, it will eventually lead to that which we all fear. Case in point, this thread. UnO, I might disagree completely with you on the raison d'etre of this thread, but you are totally right that these tend to end up sour.

And yes, I will be honest, I have felt that it has been GS members who have "taken the fun" out of these things, though I have learned to respect the fact not everyone enjoys heated, passionate, emotional, arguments. However, accussations of "trolling" and "insults" etc. are pure and utter BS if you ask me. Just because people don't agree with what someone else says, and goes off on a limb to defend their points of view does not mean that person is trolling. Both the "Manifesto" and the "Spite and Malice" threads are examples of that. Any level headed person can see that there was no spite and there was no malice, there was only different interpretations of things. Saddly some people left over these differences, much like we sometimes see diplomats storming out of the UN general assembly when a resolution is passed that isn't what they hoped for. To me it's childish and immature, but I guess other people don't see it the same way.

The fact is that some people perceived certain GS members, and the "team attitude" as a whole to be rather arrogant from the start: hermetic, hard to deal with, claiming a superior set of conduct than the rest of the teams. Dealing with GS, when it was my turn to do it, felt like dealing with a brick wall, and it wasn't just GoW who felt that way. So, like with the case of RP and the long-term vendetta which arose after some early game deals, some of the more recent diplomatic developments which have taken place in the game should come as no surprise when looking at it from this perspective. In conclusion, the thing we have learned today is this: piss off a team at first, be it by acts or by attitude, and it will come back to haunt you in a big way. Lux, RP, and now GS have sadly learned this.

I don't want to sign of without, however, giving my highest regards to the current GS leadership. These people were always good sports while the trash was flying around months ago, have never displayed a superior or self-rightous attitude, and more importantly, have been extremely open in their dealings. It is a shame that past circumstances made GoW take the decisions it took as of late because to be honest, GS to me almost seems like a whole new team. So, to Theseus, Arrian, Cort haus and whoever else I'm missing, a BIG thumbs up from my part, you people rock big time.

I'm sure the perception of GS would have been vastly different had these people handled their policy from the start. I am really no-one to pass judgment on GS's performance (although anyone can of course say that its economic prowess has been mind-boggling to say the least), but I truly believe that whatever mistakes GS have made, it has not been your fault but like RP, happened because of previous events and perceptions (I'd also like to mention that my time dealing with RP before the war was said to be when both our teams had their best relationship, unfortunately, what had to be done, had to be done).

In conclusion, I hope to see more activity in the public forum, I actually enjoyed everything, from the funny threads, to the informative threads (and the mis-informative ones too), and yeah, even the passionate ones too.

Let's keep this game alive and remember first and foremost that we may hate each other and kill each other and backstab each other and double-deal each other in the game, but that has absolutely nothing to do with our perception of us as individuals and members of the same forum.

Three cheers to the PTWDG.

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
I know you are referring to RP, but you have said similar things about GS. Maybe I'm mistaken, but GS has at least, always offered what we thought were fair deals. Maybe they weren't, but we always went to great efforts to offer balanced trades. If I'm incorrect (would not be suprising) please refer me to specific instances and I will change my tune.

Negotiating with GS was totally different than RP for me.
After Vels’ Chess Player analogy, I doubt I could top it…but here goes…

The reality TV show Big Brother.
In the last Australian version, the housemates did something wrong, so Big Brother cut off their beer supply.
After a couple of days of total sobriety, a housemate went in to speak to Big Brother to “negotiate”.
It was just before an eviction…someone was leaving the next night, and they wanted just 1 beer each as a farewell drink.
The housemate got into the oversized chair, in the small room with the one way mirrors, and a small camera & microphone.
He pleads his case, totally intimidated in his surroundings.
He stops talking, and Big Brother does not reply. Unsure if he has been heard and if he should repeat himself, the housemate begins to squirm.
Then after a lengthy pause, Big Brother replys… “Big Brother will get back to you”
Not sure if this means in a few minutes or a few hours, not sure if he is going to get want he wants, the housemate has to get up and return to the house.

For me, dealing with GS has been like dealing with Big Brother.
I was your early ambassador at the start of the game.
My emails with Zeit were fun, but not very satisfying.
I fed you information about our lack of iron, intel on the other teams, our territory description and what everyone else had, all of our political & alliance fears, and just kept you generally up to date.

GS never reciprocated in kind with the same intel.
At that time of the game, I had no idea who GS was or who their members were.
They were just another team to me.
Yet, I felt your were attempting to intimidate me by providing next to nothing about yourselves, while I tried in vain to drag any sort of information from you.

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
You are already allied, aren't you? I mean, they have sworn to defend your land, what more do you want? Its not like you need their knights in the south to finish off Spain. That said, I'm not sure why they were brought into the conversation.

Then you know more than me.
The best I can understand of Lego, is that they act in their own best interest.
They were certainly asked to help with the south.

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
Frankly, GS has needed better diplomacy. I'm still not sure how or why it was such a spectacular failure early on. That said, I wouldn't be touting GoW's diplomatic prowess either, after all it failed to keep us out of entering the war, didn't it? I think you would agree that our entrance into the war has prolonged it significantly, as well as possibly putting out of reach the elimination of RolePlay, if that's something you were after, I don't know your goals of the matter.

One thing for sure, GoW has never insisted our diplomacy as a model of perfection.
We have royally screwed up many times….. both intentionally and accidently.
GS’s entry into the war was of course expected. Why did you think we went to such great lengths to keep you out.
Was it a failure ? It may be better defined just as unsuccessful.

We of course screamed blue murder at the time. You did break our NAP.
But so did RP when they claimed we broke an implied NAP with our MPP.

That passionate parties, arguing what they each below is true.
Please don’t spam me .. this has been debated already but..
From GoW’s PoV =
We knew GS had a honour code
We new we had a NAP with GS.
Why shouldn’t we be totally peeved when you broke it, and why shouldn’t we feel obliged to point out that you just broke your honour code ?
Again…..DON’T FLAME ME … Just an example from GoW’s PoV
We can now agree to disagree.

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
What would you have done in our position? We tried everything else, unless I am again confused. We were clearly losing the war in the south, and your teams could just chip away at us indefinately. What would you have done in our place? If it did hurt our relations, well, it did reveal more clearly the nature of the Lego-GoW-ND relationship, which we would not have known otherwise. So I would take that trade. Again what would you do, just continue to be whittled away in Spain? I'm no Theseus or Aggie, but I'd say that's not a winning strategy.

To be honest, I thought we were not making a big dent in your military.
I don’t know GS’s military strength, but your obvious military weakness was trying to protect RP.
And it still is with your peace negotiations.
Want my opinion… ditch RP, they are the monkeys on your back
IF RP wants my opinion… ditch GS, they are the monkeys on your back.

Whoever does it first gets the best deal.

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
Just to set the record straight (if it needs straightening ) I (don't know about the rest of GS) certainly don't question that you have a legitimate reason for the war, hell its a game, the reason is to win the game. You play... to win the game. And frankly, I expect a team to try to win and at the very least, live up to its moniker. Anything else wouldn't be right, would it?

And GoW understands that GS think it necessary to have land on Bob to win the game.
But for us to win, you must lose.
Why would you ever think, I would agree to giving any land to a team that needs it to win ?
(Again, I only get one vote in the matter within GoW)

[Master Zen]

man, from the quick reply box you can never tell how long a post is...

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel

GS’s entry into the war was of course expected. Why did you think we went to such great lengths to keep you out.
Was it a failure ? It may be better defined just as unsuccessful.

Very true. We could have never afforded to offer GS even remotely as much land on Bob as RP could have in its desperation. GS's involvement therefore was simply a matter of who could outbid who, RP or GoW, and frankly, RP always had the higher bid.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
For me, dealing with GS has been like dealing with Big Brother.
I was your early ambassador at the start of the game.
My emails with Zeit were fun, but not very satisfying.
I fed you information about our lack of iron, intel on the other teams, our territory description and what everyone else had, all of our political & alliance fears, and just kept you generally up to date.

GS never reciprocated in kind with the same intel.
At that time of the game, I had no idea who GS was or who their members were.
They were just another team to me.
Yet, I felt your were attempting to intimidate me by providing next to nothing about yourselves, while I tried in vain to drag any sort of information from you.

Ah I see. We definately held information very close to the vest early on. Our map being withheld probably saved our necks, as Vox was stabbing into darkness, I would hate to know what they could have done with better intel. Too conservative early on, like you said, great against the AI, not so good against other humans. Too careful. I wonder why that was (thinking aloud)?

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
Then you know more than me.
The best I can understand of Lego, is that they act in their own best interest.
They were certainly asked to help with the south.

Ah, don't be coy, Hot_Enamel.

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
One thing for sure, GoW has never insisted our diplomacy as a model of perfection.
We have royally screwed up many times….. both intentionally and accidently.

GS’s entry into the war was of course expected. Why did you think we went to such great lengths to keep you out.
Was it a failure ? It may be better defined just as unsuccessful.

True. a better choice of words.

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
We of course screamed blue murder at the time. You did break our NAP.
But so did RP when they claimed we broke an implied NAP with our MPP.

That passionate parties, arguing what they each below is true.
Please don’t spam me .. this has been debated already but..
From GoW’s PoV =
We knew GS had a honour code
We new we had a NAP with GS.
Why shouldn’t we be totally peeved when you broke it, and why shouldn’t we feel obliged to point out that you just broke your honour code ?
Again…..DON’T FLAME ME … Just an example from GoW’s PoV
We can now agree to disagree.

There are things I would flame you about, but not that. Really, its a silly matter, a lot of posturing from all sides. Not a problem that I personally have.

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
To be honest, I thought we were not making a big dent in your military.
I don’t know GS’s military strength, but your obvious military weakness was trying to protect RP.

Is that excepting the previous massacre? Logically we couldn't afford to wait around. Also bear in mind that you have muskets just coming online. We all know what muskets (controlled by a human) can do to attacking knights. Not pretty.

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
And it still is with your peace negotiations.
Want my opinion… ditch RP, they are the monkeys on your back
IF RP wants my opinion… ditch GS, they are the monkeys on your back.

Whoever does it first gets the best deal.

maybe we could trade RP for Vox up north

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
And GoW understands that GS think it necessary to have land on Bob to win the game.
But for us to win, you must lose.
Why would you ever think, I would agree to giving any land to a team that needs it to win ?

Well, you've agreed to partition land with ND, right? So its not THAT hard for you to give land away, eh? Just a matter of what the long term strategy is.

(thanks for a civil discussion, I can get a bit heated, I'll admit)

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Master Zen
To be honest, this thread really caught me off guard....etc.

hm....

Should I even enter the PRIVATE forum....

[UnOrthOdOx]

I mean, we are waaaaay beyond roleplay here, so that ain't it.

Are we?

I highly recommend you don't play any roleplaying games with me then. I often get in a mood early and play that mood the rest of the game whether my real feelings change or not.

Normally, I would have a seperate character for that sort of thing, but a DL would be breaking rules here...

/me starts singing

I am evil UnO, I am evil UnO [/simpsons]

[UnOrthOdOx]

Well, you've agreed to partition land with ND, right? So its not THAT hard for you to give land away, eh? Just a matter of what the long term strategy is.

Ok...

We already share land with ND. It's entirely a different matter to give a foreign nation land on your own continent.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx


Ok...

We already share land with ND. It's entirely a different matter to give a foreign nation land on your own continent.

Sure

[Master Zen]

@asleepathewheel (and Sir Ralph from the ballads thread):

gifting land is one thing, but understand: GS was gifted land on another continent and the cities which 1) deliberately were in our war path (RP didn't gift GS their southern cities did they? nope)and 2) were positioned as the shortest transit route to move troops from stormia to bob.

Do you think it couldn't have been considered hostile when we saw knights in Toledo on the first few turns it was gifted?

Furthermore, I personally asked GS to at least allow us transit from their new bobian lands and that we would respect their new cities. I was bluntly told NO.

So, I don't know how you can step into GoW's shoes and not see these as hostile acts. Again, I am not debating who was right or who was wrong since it's pointless, but at least give us a bit of credit in understanding why we did what we did

[asleepathewheel]

MZ-

I totally see your POV, hell, I would have been pissed if I were in your situation. If I gave you the impression otherwise, I'm sorry.

[Aeson]

We always understood why you did what you did.

The fact that our Knights beat you to Toledo (without going through Bilbao, or being teleported to our capitol, mind you), should give you some insight as to why it wasn't like you were thinking though. GS could have beat you to Toledo militarily given the path you took, and certainly to all the south. You viewed those cities as yours, trusting that we were incapable of beating you there. We also viewed those cities as 'ours' (the fact we made an alliance with RP instead of going to war with them is the reason why we ended up 'giving them back' to RP*). Furthermore, GS was at war with ND, meaning that if our allies, RP, lost Toledo to another team besides us, our war effort would be hampered.

So our accepting them was seen as hostile by GoW obviously. Would you have viewed your taking them as hostile towards us though, knowing we had just as much claim to them as you did? (we both wanted them, and both needed them in our own separate wars) The answer on my part is that we wouldn't have seen it as a violation of the NAP if GoW had taken Toledo or Bilbao from RP.

That you were ok with Bilbao, but not Toledo, just seems backwards to me in any case. Bilbao was the only South/East RP city we couldn't have beat you to, and Toledo wasn't a port, so wouldn't have facilitated an intercontinental invasion.

The problem with the NAP (other than that we signed a NAP in the first place ), is that it allowed for too much interpretation. Neither team knew then exactly where the other team was at, and so what's hostile to 'ours' was undefined. In a game where every action other than capitulation is 'hostile' to the end goal of each other team (ie. winning), that allowance for interpretation should never be put into a contract IMO.

------------------

The ROP request was made given nothing in return to us. Why would we give GoW an ROP for nothing? Especially considering the fact that when we gave GoW a sea ROP, GoW used it to land troops in our territory to fullfill a contract against us?

-----------------

Some things even now can't be said concerning this of course (probably by both teams).

This is why I find the public announcements, especially those made with derogatory remarks, outside the spirit of gamesmanship. GS couldn't just come out and say "Well we could have beaten you there anyways" at the time, as it would have given too much information about our capabilities to ND (which we were at war with) and GoW (which we were almost certain to be at war with). The result is that people outside the game were making derogatory comments about GS (ie. that we broke the NAP) based on these public announcements in a situation where we couldn't defend ourselves because of events inside the game.

If/When the game reaches a stage where all the information involved can be made public, then is the time to let people make up their minds about who was right, and who was wrong. You can say that it doesn't matter what people think, but when people who I respect start making comments about me or my team, even if based on false or incomplete information, it still hurts. And because of constraints within the game, I can't even give my side of the story at the time?

*I don't know what's happened since I left of course, just commenting on the status of those cities at the time the war started. They certainly would be more useful in the hands of our allies when possible, because of corruption.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by badams52
Actually your situation kind of reminds me of what happens with me and my wife when she wants to take a walk and I don't.

If I say 'no' then she get's upset and staying at home with my upset wife is no fun, so that is not an option.

If I say 'yes' she is happy when we begin to talk, but if I'm being surly and unhappy because I didn't want to go and begrudgingly do go, she can easily pick up on that and we will probably have an argument somwhere along the line making our walk unpleasant.

So not going is never an option (she won't walk alone), and going unwillingly makes the walk unpleasant. :sigh: What can I do?

I know exactly this situation too. Although with the fortunate difference, that my wife finally does go walking alone if I don't want, just like I'm going out alone too if she doesn't want to accompany me.

Ah yes. This is the unfortunate repercussion about emotionally charged posts, or reading a person's posts with emotion attached. If it makes you feel any better Sir Ralph, having had this little discussion has greatly improved both my understanding and my opinion of you.

Opinions tend to depend on emotions, especially on message boards. And to read the correct emotions out of written text isn't that easy done. That's what emoticons are for. Look what difference adding a wink smiley after a post can do. But some people don't like to use smileys, others often just forget about them. In the latter case it is hard to characterize them right.

Though what my opinion of you is might not matter much to you, but improving my opinion of you makes me enjoy reading your posts again.

Well, I generally don't give much about what others think of me, but in your case I will make an exception. Public posts of democracy games always come with emotions attached, people act pissy if they were pissed off and witty in a harmless fun thread. That is normal. Look at Unorthodox, who is in general a creative and witty poster, but in the last days just went berserk. Why? Because he's pissed, that simple. Or take me. I also wrote witty things (well, at least tried to) while in good mood. Do you know Frater Ralphus and the vicious religion of the Great Chicken? The photoshopped (or better PSP'd) picture of the three footed War Chicken, standing in a Breughelish landscape of doom? Or ask the people in my team, how often they laugh about a remark of me in our private forum. But if I got pissed off, I will act pissy, and that's what most people see in the public forum.

But since you are not a member of a particular team and supposed to have an unbiased view, your opinion may be more objective and that's why it's more important to me.

[Master Zen]

That you were ok with Bilbao, but not Toledo, just seems backwards to me in any case. Bilbao was the only South/East RP city we couldn't have beat you to, and Toledo wasn't a port, so wouldn't have facilitated an intercontinental invasion.

Toledo was in our PATH. Bilbao wasn't.

The problem with the NAP (other than that we signed a NAP in the first place ), is that it allowed for too much interpretation. Neither team knew then exactly where the other team was at, and so what's hostile to 'ours' was undefined. In a game where every action other than capitulation is 'hostile' to the end goal of each other team (ie. winning), that allowance for interpretation should never be put into a contract IMO.

True, but we've been called deal brakers by your team, and we've called you dishonorable for doing the very same thing. Where does that get us? Nowhere. Accusations have not been one sided, and GS has played into the hands of the troll just as much as anyone else.

The result is that people outside the game were making derogatory comments about GS (ie. that we broke the NAP) based on these public announcements in a situation where we couldn't defend ourselves because of events inside the game.

This is I think the whole issue in question at the moment.. Why is saying that you people broke the NAP a "derogatory" remark? Please, is everything that is ever said against the wishes or beliefs of GS an insult, a troll or a flame? Because from the looks of it it seems quite a few of you take it like that. GoW has been called cowards, ND's *****es, liars, backstabbers, deal-brakers, by MANY teams including GS. And we're not complaining about how this public forum is not chivalrious and that people act like in a FPS forum. Gow has taken the crap dished out at us, and I find it appalling that so many people from GS left because they were simply incapable of doing the same.

Seriously, go back and read those old threads and you will see that GS did not behave as gentlemanly in this forum as some of you have constantry tried to make us believe.

[Aeson]

GoW moved towards Bilbao before Toledo was gifted to GS. I remember quite clearly that without that move, GoW would have beaten us to Toledo (assuming they made it through RP) regardless of what we did.

----------------

GS made a statement about how they would honor agreements in-game. (obviously the statement was made too often ) This is actually a real life commitment to playing the game a certain way. Now if GS breaks that commitment, it isn't just the 'fake' game commitment that's broken, but the real life word of the members of GS.

That is the difference on that issue. No other team made that statement, so saying they broke an agreement isn't going to carry the same weight against them in real life. In both cases the team broke an in-game commitment, and the in-game reprocussions will be similar, but in the case of GS, it would also has been a breaking of a real life commitment as well.

Obviously, real life character is more important than in-game character. (this has nothing to do with who has real life character and who doesn't, so don't go there)

---------------

Seriously, go back and read those old threads and you will see that GS did not behave as gentlemanly in this forum as some of you have constantry tried to make us believe.

Nowhere have I stated that GS (or myself) behaved better than any other team (or anyone else). You should get in the habit of quoting material you are referencing, and you can then read it to avoid making such completely falacious remarks and insinuations.

If, in fact, you are talking about someone other than me, do no address me when making those statements. Address the proper person.

Where does that get us? Nowhere.

That's my point. There is no value in these types of public accusations, because at best they are unsupported secondhand accounts. These accusations (of in-game events) only have real meaning when shared in-game. The publicizing of these accusations was wrong in all instances IMO (certainly this is a matter of opinion), regardless of who or what team was involved.

[Arnelos]

Geesh... Why on earth does anyone still care about this game?

I gave up caring about this game quite a while ago, now...

As for the posts in this thread, the only person who continues to amaze me with their willful ignorance is Hot_Enamel. Trust me, many of us actually do "get it", but it's rather apparent that you don't.

As for the whole lot of you getting all steamed all over again about things that happened months ago.... trust me, just let it go. As for whether RP Team would be able to live in a world with GoW or ND or anyone else, I don't think our team would have a problem anymore... to be blunt, I can't name a single person in RP who honestly gives a damn anymore. If GoW and/or ND let us live, I'm reasonably sure there'd be little future retaliation on them for it... no-one cares enough about that anymore.

When you step away from the game and just stop caring as passionately about its outcome as though it were one of the more important things in the world, its amazing how that induces clarity as well as calm.

RP live, RP die... I could care less. This is the first time I've even read a thread in the public section of this forum in probably more than 2-3 months (and only because I happen to be bored tonight and noticed that there actually WAS an active thread in this forum).

I'd be willing to keep playing with RP as a minor power or vassal state or client state or whatever to any power in the game or any number of powers in the game for no other reason than for the hell of it at this point. RP lost any chance of winning a long time ago and the team lost any sense of caring about who our enemies are some time ago as well.

If you still want to kill RP off, that's fine, too. Not that we're spending much time on it now as it is, but it'll give a few people some more free time.

No guarantee I'll be reading this thread in the future, btw... so apologies ahead of time if I don't reply to any replies.

Trust me, folks... step away from the game a bit and get some perspective... you're all wasting way too much time on nonsense threads like this.

[Master Zen]

Aeson, no offense but I will not follow through with your word games because frankly everyone knows what we both are talking about and shielding comments by the excuse that they are not targeted at someone or that you never said them is pretty pointless when the attitude and intention is all but obvious.

The fact is that you have constantly stepped into defend what is generally considered to be GS's point of view, and this debate is no exception. I of course understand that having been a valued member of GS it is only natural for you to defend your former team, but please, don't expect us to consider you a completely unbiased and neutral individual in this discussion when the points you've been defending have been precisely those which the "GoW side" has been criticizing.

Secondly, I think you people (and by that I some of the GS crowd) thinks that what happens in this game carries on to other games and to their RL personas. That is not true at all. I see some people, like Arrian and Theseus who are in Cake or Death in the PTWDG, I do not look at them as "GS members" in that game. Sir Ralph is in Monty Python as well as GWT in the ISDG, that does not mean that grudges with GS will be carried on to him in those demo games. Hell, practically the entire Roleplay team is in Sunshine. They are not the same, and they do not get treated the same since they are separate entities.

Please, get over the fact that what happens here, stays here. It does not affect the perception of you people as individuals or as members of other teams, thinking otherwise will only make you paranoid that there's some "anti-GS conspiracy" brewing everywhere, which is simply wrong.

In other words, for me and I would guess for many people, ALL commitments made in this game apply only to this game, there is no such thing as a "RL commitment" made about events in-game. The only real life commitment is that which we took by which we pledged not to cheat because it has nothing to do with the way we play but with the way we abuse the game.

If I were to follow your argument, then whenever another team with a GS member in any other demo game lied or backstabbed or broke a deal, I would stand up and whine and ***** at the fact that that person was also a GS member, and had made a pledge to honor all committments as a real life person and thus it applied to any team he is in. See the flaw in your logic?

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
MZ-

I totally see your POV, hell, I would have been pissed if I were in your situation. If I gave you the impression otherwise, I'm sorry.

You don't need to apologize, if I had been a GS member I would also felt quite uneasy at what GoW did. Like I said, it all depends on our teams PoV's which is why it surprises me why some in GS took it so bad when we made public our anger over what happened. If GS had been so sure of what it did was right then surely the silly remarks of those crazy wacko GoWers would have been taken as just mere tantrums!

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Togas
(Vondrack hates us more than half of the GoW players)

This is simply not true. Nor does hate you any other member of Lego.
Whether you believe me or not I don't care. But don't make public accusations based on your assumptions.

To make it clear: 90% behind all of Lego's actions is reason, and maybe 10% emotions (more or less). So the fact that we like some teams more than others (based on their past or current behaviour towards us) only makes our decisions easier or more difficult to take. Simply put: we play to win.

Of course, when we talk about reason/logic as the guidline we follow, there is always a limit. For example, we would never break a treaty. But when we can choose, we choose what is best for us.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Hell, practically the entire Roleplay team is in Sunshine.

Actually, a number of us are on other teams, notably MAST, Tabemono, and Monty Python.