War Weariness.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Sir Ralph is in Monty Python as well as GWT in the ISDG

Just for the sake of information, and no harm intended:

Technically I am in the GWT, but I just made about three posts there and then completely disappeared, because I considered myself a team change after the game started to be quite fishy. I didn't want to be the cause for grudges or attacks after the unpleasant experiences in this game. And I see now (lurking), that there a lot of hot discussions between the teams too (fortify all, anyone?), which shows me, that this decision was right.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Tiberius
For example, we would never break a treaty.

Good, but don't say this too often. It will be helt against you.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Just for the sake of information, and no harm intended:

Technically I am in the GWT, but I just made about three posts there and then completely disappeared, because I considered myself a team change after the game started to be quite fishy. I didn't want to be the cause for grudges or attacks after the unpleasant experiences in this game. And I see now (lurking), that there a lot of hot discussions between the teams too (fortify all, anyone?), which shows me, that this decision was right.

Sir Ralph, to be completely honest, I doubt anyone on the Apolyton team has ever looked at GWT and felt some grudge at the fact that you left our own. In fact, and you are definitely a witness, that some us approached you recently to try and help with a little issue at hand regarding our two teams. Dare I say that instead of looking at you and thinking "oh, he's the bastard that left us" most of would have looked at you as "oh, cool, here's a Poly member who can perhaps help bring our teams together".

(and who knows, if you ever de-lurk at GWT that just might happen)

[Harovan]

May be, but when I left, the team distribution on the map wasn't yet clear. If we would have been neighbors and we (GWT) had overran you early, I'm sure a horrendous mud slinging would have started, and partially even rightful, because a team change after the start IS fishy, no doubt.

(Gee, it may even turn out that Apolyton and GWT ARE neighbors, I simply don't know, but this would just demonstrate my complete ignorance about this game)

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Good, but don't say this too often. It will be helt against you.

I don't really need to say it. Everybody knows it already

Besides, did you hear me saying "honour"?

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Master Zen
"oh, he's the bastard that left us"

And to clarify it further: Not "the bastard who left us" would have been the subject of the theoretical discussions (if GWT had overran Apolyton early) I was talking about, but "the bastard who knew the location and map".

[Aeson]

Aeson, no offense but I will not follow through with your word games because frankly everyone knows what we both are talking about and shielding comments by the excuse that they are not targeted at someone or that you never said them is pretty pointless when the attitude and intention is all but obvious.

Quoting is a word game?

All I ask is if you attribute a statement to me, that you quote the source you derived it from. Then I can tell you if you are interpreting it right or not, or at least reference what you are talking about.

As for the general meaning of that paragraph, I have very little clue what you are talking about. That sentence is almost convoluted enough that I could have written it. Please explain it?

The fact is that you have constantly stepped into defend what is generally considered to be GS's point of view, and this debate is no exception. I of course understand that having been a valued member of GS it is only natural for you to defend your former team, but please, don't expect us to consider you a completely unbiased and neutral individual in this discussion when the points you've been defending have been precisely those which the "GoW side" has been criticizing.

I only have knowlege of the game through the 'eyes' of GS, during the time I was in the game, so certainly, all my statements about things which happened in-game are biased by that view. Of course, I will debate about different game related events. To me that is fun. I will probably usually take GS' side in those debates (if I didn't agree with what we were doing then, I wouldn't have supported it), though there are exceptions.

I have never said otherwise. All I have said is that I am currently not concerned with the way the game progresses from this point out. If you disagree, find a post, and quote it. Otherwise, I would hope you have the integrity to stop lying here in this forum about things I have said.

I have said that I am biased against you. I think your posting style is a disease that infects most internet forums, and it sickens me to see the same old thing brought into forums which I chose to participate in mainly due to the lack of that disease. I do not have problems with GoW, other than those problems I have with you, HE, and GF as concerns this forum. I cannot help that you three are on the same team, but if you go back to previous discussions, both here and on other forums, you will see that I have made the same arguments against others who are not affiliated with GoW in any way.

Admittedly, I am using some of the same problematic posting style here, partly as sarcasm, partly just to relieve some stress, and partly because that's what diseases do, they infect people. Right?

Secondly, I think you people (and by that I some of the GS crowd) thinks that what happens in this game carries on to other games and to their RL personas. That is not true at all.

Certainly what happens in this game carries on to my view of people's real life persona, my own included. If only in my own estimation. You can't tell me that it doesn't. That is a completely ludicrous and egocentric statement.

You can say you don't think it should reflect, and that in your estimation it doesnt, but not that it doesn't in an absolute sense.

Please, get over the fact that what happens here, stays here. It does not affect the perception of you people as individuals or as members of other teams, thinking otherwise will only make you paranoid that there's some "anti-GS conspiracy" brewing everywhere, which is simply wrong.

Thank you for the mindreading and psychology session. Did I ever post about any anti-GS conspiracy? I read Vel's "Spite and Malice" between sessions at the beach (I'm not there now ), but I didn't post in that thread. If you must know, I do think there was outside influence in how all of us approached everyone else in this game to the extent we knew them. Certainly I joined GS based on the quality of strategy posts many of the members had made about Civ III in general. I just wanted to be involved with a lot of the discussions I knew were going on inside that forum (kinda an extension of the strategy forum). I'm assuming most of the people had some reason for joining the teams they did, and some of them may have even not joined a team for specific reasons. I certainly don't think it was a conspiracy against anyone though.

If there was a conspiracy, it would have to have been against Vox or Lux. (the RNG was in on it!)

If I were to follow your argument, then whenever another team with a GS member in any other demo game lied or backstabbed or broke a deal, I would stand up and whine and ***** at the fact that that person was also a GS member, and had made a pledge to honor all committments as a real life person and thus it applied to any team he is in. See the flaw in your logic?

No, but I see the flaw in my post. I didn't properly qualify the sentence "GS made a statement about how they would honor agreements in-game." It should have had a PtWDG qualification. Obviously GS didn't make a statement about how they would honor agreements in all games, just this one. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Besides, did you hear me saying "honour"?

This is generally a stupid word for a self description. If somebody says about himself, that he's a person of honor, he's either a medieval knight or a modern braggart. I never liked how our voluntary pledge not to break treaties was called "code of honor" by some of our members. I don't recall to have used it myself, may be except for quoting purposes. In fact, I'm not in favor of this pledge at all. Everybody is entitled to honor treaties or to break them, as well as to mistrust a team that already has broken. You know, "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me".

[BigFree]

This game, this thread, this forum is just so sour for me now.... Too many personalizations in the game were made for there not to be hurt feelings among members who, before this game, were on 'friendly' terms with each other. You can't go back and mend these types of things.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


This is generally a stupid word for a self description. If somebody says about himself, that he's a person of honor, he's either a medieval knight or a modern braggart. I never liked how our voluntary pledge not to break treaties was called "code of honor" by some of our members. I don't recall to have used it myself, may be except for quoting purposes. In fact, I'm not in favor of this pledge at all. Everybody is entitled to honor treaties or to break them, as well as to mistrust a team that already has broken. You know, "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me".

Aeson, are you listening to this?

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Aeson

I have said that I am biased against you. I think your posting style is a disease that infects most internet forums, and it sickens me to see the same old thing brought into forums which I chose to participate in mainly due to the lack of that disease. I do not have problems with GoW, other than those problems I have with you, HE, and GF as concerns this forum. I cannot help that you three are on the same team, but if you go back to previous discussions, both here and on other forums, you will see that I have made the same arguments against others who are not affiliated with GoW in any way.

Well, since now I do not know when you are speaking honestly or making sarcastic remarks, how am I supposed to interpret this?

1) You really mean it. In that case, once again the pot calling the kettle black, is this not a "derogatory" remark against me H_E and GF? Oh wait, I know what you'll answer. You'll say that yes, you too are guilty of falling for the temptation of trolling. In that case, neither you nor I have any self-righteous substance to back up any of our arguments so why the hell are we even bothering to post then?


2) It was sarcasm. Ah, I'm sure I'll enjoy and laugh at being called a "disease". Oh wait, again, I know what you'll answer, you'll say it's just my posting style and not me as an individual, right. Gee, where have I heard that argument before?

/me looks at mirror

Hell, you know what? Everything ever said by, me, H_E, or GF ever in any public thread has been a sarcastic remark. So chill out, grab a beer and laugh at how stupid we've all been at taking things so seriously.

g'night.

-MZ

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Tiberius
For example, we would never break a treaty.

Just as a warning of how these things can be seen in different ways (I suppose), there are a few on RP Team who have a rather different opinion about that.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

And to clarify it further: Not "the bastard who left us" would have been the subject of the theoretical discussions (if GWT had overran Apolyton early) I was talking about, but "the bastard who knew the location and map".

We are quite confident that us poly demo game people adhere to certain unwritten rules of conduct, and that if someone said they would not use certain priviledged information against us, he would keep his word. This applies to you (we never ever mentioned the possibiltiy of you revealing our info because we know it would be unthinkable for you to have done so) and also to Aeson with his unfortunate self-removal from our team after accidentaly looking at someone else's map.

I guess you can say that whatever accusations are thrown around in this forum, "cheating" has never been one of them.

[Harovan]

Yes, that's very true.

[Aeson]

Aeson, are you listening to this?

Come on MZ, just give us a quote to let us know what you are referencing (other than your own delusions).

I didn't even mention the word (in that context of course, I did say "honor agreements"). I characterized GS "code of honor" (not my words) as an out of game commitment to not break in-game (PTWDG) agreements. Obviously you can't read the size 1 print, as I even included a pre-emptive explaination as to what I was(n't) talking about. Here it is in normal size for you:

"this has nothing to do with who has real life character and who doesn't, so don't go there"

As for the subject matter of SirRalph's post, I do think people are also entitled to place different self restrictions on their gameplay as they see fit. It doesn't give a person the right to look down on others (or puff themselves up) based on that self imposed restriction of course. I personally wouldn't have chosen the self imposed restriction that GS did, but when I joined the team I was agreeing to abide by it.

[Darekill]

This is a chain. It happens quite often. Not just to you but sometimes even to me. I don't speak for ND here as far as I remember ND did not break any Treatys in this game. It may have to do with the fact that we did not sign many....

We don't break a treaty.
We keep it in sense and wording.
We don't break a teaty.
Maybe we didn't keep the sense but at least the wording.
We don't break a teaty.
Maybe we did twist the wording. but just a little.
We don't break a teaty.
Maybe we did bend it just a little to fit our needs.
O.k. let's omit it we did break a teaty.

[redstar1]

Originally posted by Arnelos


Just as a warning of how these things can be seen in different ways (I suppose), there are a few on RP Team who have a rather different opinion about that.

This is a possible interpretation of events as they transpired. Lego is happy however that any 'treaty' did not have the words 'slave', 'b1tch', or the phrase '..and you'll take it whenever we say' contained within it....

I think the members of the Lego team are perfectly happy that we treated RP the same way they treated us....

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Arnelos

Just as a warning of how these things can be seen in different ways (I suppose),

I'm sure they can.

there are a few on RP Team who have a rather different opinion about that.

We tried.

I'm not saying we are perfect. Here and there we also make mistakes or things that seem justified for us but maybe hurt others. However, we always tried and will try to keep our promises and be fair with our friends as well as our enemies.

May the best team win.

[Harovan]

MZ,

I got to defend Aeson here.

In terms of his abilities in mastering the game and its mechanics, he's lightyears above everyone else in this forum. Hardly anyone will deny this. But he never boasted or bragged about it, but was always one of us ("us" meaning not in GS sense, but in the sense of Apolyton regular - and CFC, of course too). There have been others screaming around, that they are the best, leetest or whatever players. Aeson put them all to shame, whilst remaining decent. At the countrary, he sometimes called in his game reports some of his actions a stupid move. I would be happy if I could make such "stupid moves" like he does myself or at least even see them.

So even IF Aeson used "the word" (honor that is), it was for certain only describing or quoting something or in the phrase "honor a treaty", but never in the bragging sense.

[Aeson]

Well, since now I do not know when you are speaking honestly or making sarcastic remarks, how am I supposed to interpret this?

Now you see the problem with the posting style at least.

1) You really mean it. In that case, once again the pot calling the kettle black, is this not a "derogatory" remark against me H_E and GF? Oh wait, I know what you'll answer. You'll say that yes, you too are guilty of falling for the temptation of trolling. In that case, neither you nor I have any self-righteous substance to back up any of our arguments so why the hell are we even bothering to post then?

I really mean it, if that helps.

Ideas should be valued based on themselves, not who types them. There is no need for self-righteous substance to back up an argument if a person is willing to note their own failings and weaknesses. I noted a couple times in posts tonight that I was making derogatory remarks about you, and that the discussion wasn't about whether derogatory remarks were good or bad as well. You are getting confused with our last discussion, which was about that in part.

2) It was sarcasm. Ah, I'm sure I'll enjoy and laugh at being called a "disease". Oh wait, again, I know what you'll answer, you'll say it's just my posting style and not me as an individual, right. Gee, where have I heard that argument before?

It wasn't sarcasm. There is some in there, but it won't come across because sarcasm is a broken form of communication in text (as we've been using it here at least). I think you are getting a bit of the sarcasm though. Your guess as to my response (if it were to be sarcastic) is completely on target.

Hell, you know what? Everything ever said by, me, H_E, or GF ever in any public thread has been a sarcastic remark. So chill out, grab a beer and laugh at how stupid we've all been at taking things so seriously.

Now you see the problem, I'm sure. You still haven't noted the solution yet though.

[Arnelos]

Tiberius and redstar1,

First, I think at least redstar1 is thinking of a different treaty line than the one people on RP Team have been reacting to of late (and that I was referencing). But that's really beside the point.

As for what I think redstar1 was referring to, I've discussed at length with vondrack that I place the blame on badly-written treaties... if vondrack posted logs of those chats to your forum, you can see specifically what I thought was bad about those treaties that made conflicts over them inevitable (in my opinion).

I don't desire to discuss the details of that or what I was actually referencing out here, however. I can't see how it would be helpful to troll about what lines in what treaties have not been lived up to by various parties unless there's actually something to be GAINED by it - and, frankly, I very rarely see a case where there's potentially something to be gained. That is why I've repeatedly asked that no-one from RP Team engage in that (though admittedly with limited success at times...).

I suppose the point I was trying to imply was that making the statement "we have always been honest", something almost always up to debate, is unfortuantely the typical way in which these flame threads get started.

I'd rather we just not start this one.

[Tiberius]

Rather not, indeed.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Aeson
I have said that I am biased against you. I think your posting style is a disease that infects most internet forums, and it sickens me to see the same old thing brought into forums which I chose to participate in mainly due to the lack of that disease. I do not have problems with GoW, other than those problems I have with you, HE, and GF as concerns this forum. I cannot help that you three are on the same team, but if you go back to previous discussions, both here and on other forums, you will see that I have made the same arguments against others who are not affiliated with GoW in any way.

Hey, I have specifically tried to refrain from any comments on GS as your team has shown it has no sense of humor and you turn around and start making derogatory remarks about me all over again.

Fine. Orangesoda sucks, Gatorade's better!

[Aeson]

I was just sad that last time you stopped responding to me. Couldn't help but try and get you back in the mix somehow GF...

orangesoda is something that I have no need to defend, it is reproachless in it's perfection. Gatorade is pretty good anyways.

[Harovan]

GF has a point here and I'm pleasantly surprised about his change for that matter. He was once known for going quite personal in his comments and I was pretty pissed at him at a time. But things have gotten much more civilized. That doesn't mean that fun is gone. We still taunt each other at heart, but nothing of it is goes below the belt.

That's for you GF:

That said, now shut up GF or I tell everyone what a DL you are.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Hey, I have specifically tried to refrain from any comments on GS as your team has shown it has no sense of humor and you turn around and start making derogatory remarks about me all over again.

Before accusing others of lack of humour, it is usually wise to check that you've said something funny.

Apart from that, Bravo, Sir"!

(PS - didn't you read our annex about the Steps of the Stormian Senate?)

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
That's for you GF:

That said, now shut up GF or I tell everyone what a DL you are.

The equivilent of someone saying:

"Here, puppy, puppy, puppy. Cute, puppy."

Then kicking it 6 feet through the air into a mulch machine.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
The equivilent of someone saying:

"Here, puppy, puppy, puppy. Cute, puppy."

Then kicking it 6 feet through the air into a mulch machine.

I would never call you a puppy. Since you live in a swamp, you're of course an alligator.

See you lator.

[Cort Haus]

I don't think he meant it, GF - just some lively banter between consenting individuals.

[Harovan]

I'm sure GF perfectly knows how it was meant.