ToT scenario design

[William Keenan]

This topic began in a different thread, but I moved it here as I felt it warranted its own.

quote: William: ToT fizzled as a potential scenario platform because not enough people bought it... I also hear it is very buggy. I considered building a scenario for it when Alex made his "Hispanola" but was discouraged by all the negative feedback I got. I would love to have more units and better events though. Right now with Civ3 lurking out there in the not so distant future I would be reluctant to learn a new system. At best I will hone my skills on another Civ2 scenario.

I’m looking forward to Civ3 as well. However, having not seen a scenario design community spring up around any Firaxis product thus far, I’m hesitant to assume that Civ3 will be the panacea of scenario design.

As far as ToT not being a potential scenario platform, I heartily disagree. As webmaster for the Cradle of Civilization I get scores of emails from people looking for ToT scenarios. At fifteen bucks, who can’t afford to buy it? I’ll bet that the few remaining holdouts would race to buy ToT so they could play the next Captain Nemo scenario. If you released a ToT scenario, Nemo, Microprose’s sales you probably double that month.

There are a number of "bugs" in ToT scenario design. Some are real bugs like the terrain animations showing up when they are turned off. And others are learning curves, such as realizing that the restrictions to tech research are stored in the SAV file and thus not affected by changes to the rules.txt - just like the tech paradigm. At the time, I was unable to help Alex solve many of his dilemmas. But over the past year a fix has been found for each of these bugs.

Also, a number of residual bugs from civ2 have been fixed in ToT. You can now have truly divergent tech trees without having to sacrifice diplomacy or allocate a half dozen anchor techs. Civs can share a tech but not share the units that that tech allows to be built. For example the tech “Armored Vehicles” could be discovered by both the Americans and the Germans but it would allow the “Sherman Tank” to be built by only the Americans and the “Panzer” to be built only by the Germans. Improvements can not be restricted to individual civs however.

Surely the increased color depth must hold some allure for an artist like you Nemo.

ToT allows multiple engineer units. The sounds are individually allocated, no longer predetermined by slot. The events file size is over 100k. There are a host of new event triggers and actions, including the ability to remove or restrict techs on the fly.

This is by no means a conclusive list of ToT design assets. But it should be enough to illustrate why, IMHO, the benefits of ToT way out weigh the bugs.

[Xin Yu]

After I posted the 'map jumper' bug and they decided not to fix it, I lost interest in TOT

[Miner]

WK

I completely agree so I am still working on ToTEdit! (note to self: stop posting, more programming).

Xin

Only you could find something like this, be quiet, please!

[William Keenan]

quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu on 03-27-2001 01:55 PM After I posted the 'map jumper' bug and they decided not to fix it, I lost interest in TOT

Xin, I understand your feeling completely. I discovered that the event trigger, Flag with the count parameter, did not work. So despondent was I that I did not use ToT for months. Instead I designed a scenario in civ2 FW instead. While designing it I often became frustrated that I could not do things that I knew I could if I were using ToT. Eventually, I decided it was better to deal with the one bug in ToT then the dozen limitations of FW.

quote: Originally posted by Miner on 03-27-2001 02:49 PM I completely agree so I am still working on ToTEdit! (note to self: stop posting, more programming).

Looking forward to your prototype.

quote: Originally posted by Fiera on 03-27-2001 12:21 PMI'd gladly pay a lot more just for trying TOT, but the problem is that I can't seem to find it in Spain. Dou you know if TOT is available at any of the online game stores?

Every online game store carries the English version of ToT. However, many do not ship outside North America.

quote: Also, I've heard that some authors are developing powerful tools that will allow for even better scenario making capabilities... Are these tools somewhere near to be released? What will be their real effects?

CivConvert converts FW and MGE scenarios to ToT. CivTweak and MapEdit are also powerful utilities. All of these can be found on the Cradle of Civilization.

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by William Keenan on 03-27-2001 11:44 AM At fifteen bucks, who can’t afford to buy it?

I'd gladly pay a lot more just for trying TOT, but the problem is that I can't seem to find it in Spain. Dou you know if TOT is available at any of the online game stores?

Also, I've heard that some authors are developing powerful tools that will allow for even better scenario making capabilities... Are these tools somewhere near to be released? What will be their real effects?

Thanks.

[Captain Nemo]

What is this thing about the Event Flag not working?
How restrictive is it?

BTW the price of a game is totally irrelevant to whether I buy it or not...

I am considering a massive revision to Red Front and here is why I would consider ToT, but I would like a honest assessment of whether the capabilities are truly there and work:

1. Event language can set flags that are remembered (In sav file) and can be used as future triggers
2. There is provision for multi-conditional events (If flag=1 AND unit XX killed then...)
3. Move commands work consistently
4. You can control war/peace state between AI Civs by events and they don't "make peace" behind your back.
5. There are 20 additional unit slots
6. You can make multi-directional unit icons (8 directions?)
7. Maps are bigger?
8. You can reuse most of the Civ2 graphics

Hope most of the answers to the above are positive... otherwise ToT will not be my platform for future work

[Henrik]

On a very selfish note I would like to say that I hope Captain Nemo wont start using ToT isntead of MGE/FW since I as a mac user wont be able to buy ToT ever since the only versions of civ2 available to mac are normal and MGE...
Oh but that is just me (I think a lot of players arent interested in buying ToT for another reason: Civ 3 isn't that far way...)

[William Keenan]

quote: Originally posted by Captain Nemo on 03-28-2001 10:51 AM What is this thing about the Event Flag not working? How restrictive is it?

The flag trigger does not work when used with the count parameter. This bug is not at all restrictive. It’s just a new feature that does not work.

quote: BTW the price of a game is totally irrelevant to whether I buy it or not...

I did not think money would be an issue for you Nemo. Rather, I was referring to other people buying Test of Time because you made a scenario using it.

quote: I am considering a massive revision to Red Front and here is why I would consider ToT, but I would like a honest assessment of whether the capabilities are truly there and work: 1. Event language can set flags that are remembered (In sav file) and can be used as future triggers

Yes. There are 32 flags per civ and they are stored with the saved game. One glitch here is that when a civ is wiped out their flags go with them.

quote: 2. There is provision for multi-conditional events (If flag=1 AND unit XX killed then...)

Yes. Two conditions are allowed per event. More then two conditions can be weighed into the trigger by using a flag trigger with a threshold parameter.

quote: 3. Move commands work consistently

I do not know. I expect it works the same as it did in MGE.

quote: 4. You can control war/peace state between AI Civs by events and they don't "make peace" behind your back.

It can still not be controlled directly but there are two new event tools that can be employed to help restrict War/Peace states.

quote: 5. There are 20 additional unit slots

There are 18 additional unit slots. Each slot can have its own sound and there are seven new unit abilities including invisibility, no ping for helicopter, unbribable, etc.

quote: 6. You can make multi-directional unit icons (8 directions?)

No. ToT horizontally flips icons when they move to the left. Therefore, they should be drawn facing right or down.

quote: 7. Maps are bigger?

ToT can handle maps up to 32768 squares. Mercator's MapEdit can be used to create the gigamap.

quote: 8. You can reuse most of the Civ2 graphics

Yes. The color depth is greater (24-bit) in ToT, but the GIFs convert easily.

[St Leo]

Angelo Scotto's CSPL adds an even more powerful event language to Civilization through the use of a concurrently running program that monitors the goings on in ToT. He has sent me a beta version but I never got around to testing it.

P.S. Warning: requires familiarity with C++.

------------------
St. Leo
http://www.sidgames.com/hosted/ziggurat/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/

[techumseh]

Nemo,

1. Yes
2. Yes, and they can be turned off again with other (multiple) triggers
3. Yes
4. Yes, the same techniques as FW, plus control attitudes through events
5. Yes
6. No, the units flip from left to right, depending on which way they're moving
7. No, but you can make them up to 4 times larger by hex editing
8. Absolutely

Sorry, Henrik

Two other points about events: When using the create unit event, there is a "number to create" modifier which allows up to 255 units to be created with a single event. Also, these units can be distributed randomly to up to 10 locations. And of course, there is 100K of events capacity, three times that of FW.

[klesh]

quote: ToT horizontally flips icons when they move to the left. Therefore, they should be drawn facing right or down.

What does it do with the unit's flag or shield? This may make swastikas and hammer&sickles backwards when they are drawn as part of the unit, as Nemo does it. I suppose it wouldn't effect the union jack, star(US), or rising sun flags though...

[techumseh]

There is no shield, unless you draw one. There is a bar across the top which indicates the color and health of the unit.

[techumseh]

"bump"

[Alinestra Covelia]

I'd like to drop in my two cents in the ToT Scenario Design water fountain! The rules.txt file alone has enough specifications to keep me occupied for hours (I've just spent the best part of this week working on a scenario, so far only touching the rules.txt).

Add to that the introduction of the define.txt (in which you can alter the indepth civilopedia) and you have a degree of control entire orders above what FW and CiC allowed, even before you start working with the events.txt file.

The question of maps over maps struck me initially as being a bit of a gimmick, but I suddenly realized that it could be used to simulate something akin to hyperspace travel in an enterprising Star Wars scenario. This is something that has bewildered me for a while so it comes as a relief for me to find this possibility.

The only thing I do miss from the FW editor is the ability to specify which tribe style the different civs use for cities. I have made changes to the rules.txt but they don't always seem to hold - does anybody know how I can force a tribe to adhere to a certain style of beginning-level city?

[Marko]

Have you tried CivTweak program? I think it works for ToT also.

Good luck!

[techumseh]

Marko beat me to it. Carl Fritz has made some really wonderful programs which allow you to edit the sav and scn files in Civ2, including ToT. There are two main ones: CivTweak and CivCity. Together with Mercators' MapEdit program they are essential weapons in the arsenal of any serious scenario designer.

The one you need is CivTweak, here: http://users.sgi.net/~harden/civtweak.html
It's simple to use and very useful to set city styles and a number of other city values. BTW, can you tell us anything about your scenario?

[Alinestra Covelia]

I have two scenarios currently under development, although I don't know when the more ambitious one (the Star Wars scenario) will be finished.

The less ambitious one is basically just to get me acquainted with the scenbuilding tools for ToT - William Keenan will probably remember its alpha stage, in fact. It's a Gigamercator portrayal of the Earth in modern era (2000AD) with major nations America/EU/Russia/China/India and two Neutral nations, with a redesigned tech tree (one which can actually be played with from the ground upwards, unlike most of my FW scenarios). It is primarily intended for human vs. human matches. Although there's nothing particularly innovative, I still hope it'll be fun for multiplayer, something that ToT supports better than Civ2FW.

In any case, it's keeping me occupied and away from NYC's impressionable youth, so that's a good thing.

The more ambitious scenario (Star Wars) was inspired by the Master of Orion Jr Scenario for Civ2, as well as the brilliant but flawed game Rebellion by LucasArts (Supremacy in Europe). This scenario will have to be strictly multiplayer, since the computer AI has severe problems with sea projection and transport. In this scenario, the galaxy is represented by Space squares (which function as ocean) and planets and systems function as different terrain types. Therefore players will have to board Stormtroopers onto Star Destroyers, then hyperspace the Destroyer to the required target planet, bombard the planet, and finally hold it with a Stormtrooper garrison. I am hoping to be able to set up another map with low-move-cost terrain leading from point to point, and call this a Hyperspace Travel map, but I haven't gotten round to that yet.

By the way, does anybody know if the "Scenarioname1.scn Scenarioname2.scn" FW enhancement works for ToT? By this I mean that when you save a scenario, but save many copies of it with a number after the name, then the computer randomly picks one of the scenario files for play. (This was used by the Jules Verne FW scenario and I was very impressed.)

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia

The more ambitious scenario (Star Wars) was inspired by the Master of Orion Jr Scenario for Civ2, as well as the brilliant but flawed game Rebellion by LucasArts (Supremacy in Europe). This scenario will have to be strictly multiplayer, since the computer AI has severe problems with sea projection and transport. In this scenario, the galaxy is represented by Space squares (which function as ocean) and planets and systems function as different terrain types. Therefore players will have to board Stormtroopers onto Star Destroyers, then hyperspace the Destroyer to the required target planet, bombard the planet, and finally hold it with a Stormtrooper garrison. I am hoping to be able to set up another map with low-move-cost terrain leading from point to point, and call this a Hyperspace Travel map, but I haven't gotten round to that yet.

It sounds good. Check out Eyn's site (link on the ToT forum) for a made-for-ToT Star Wars unit collection. Also on the Scenario League site, Kobyashi's Star Trek scenarios are excellent and may offer some useful ideas for yours. And Cradle of Civilization is dedicated to ToT and has some specific tips which are excellent and not found anywhere else.

The hyperspace idea occured to me as well. Unfortunately, you cannot vary the movement cost of sea terrain - it remains 1 no matter what you set it at. You can set land move cost at 0 if you want to, but air and sea units always move 1 mp per square. It's too bad because it's a great idea.

By the way, does anybody know if the "Scenarioname1.scn Scenarioname2.scn" FW enhancement works for ToT? By this I mean that when you save a scenario, but save many copies of it with a number after the name, then the computer randomly picks one of the scenario files for play. (This was used by the Jules Verne FW scenario and I was very impressed.)

Yes. It works for events files also.