Apolyton University Mod: C3C version - Page 5

lockstep · May 2, 2004, 06:41

I started a thread about the space race and whether the shield costs of SS parts should be increased:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...readid=114071.

(AFAIK, this is the last change included in former AU mod versions that we didn't discuss for the C3C version until now.)

alexman · May 12, 2004, 17:46

Version 1.05 is out.
Could someone please look it over before AU503?

Harovan · May 19, 2004, 03:59

I'm playing a test game with 1.05 now, and have the Aztecs on my continent. We're around 1300BC, and I already had a war with them (I decided to warmonger in this game, well, it's Conquests after all). How comes I have seen plenty of Aztec warriors and Archers, but not a single Jaguar warrior yet? They've been the teeth of the Aztecs in Civ3 and PtW and it was a real challenge to attack them in the early game, because their capital was able to spit out 1-turn Jags. Why are they crippled like this in Conquests?

Harovan · May 19, 2004, 04:34

One more note: I just read in the Creation forum Willems proposal to fix the AI-army-problem (make combats spawn armies instead of leaders). I think the loss of the ability to rush small wonders (other rushes aren't worth to burn a leader anyway) may be a fair tradeoff for having a militarily much more competitive AI. The only question i'd have is, what would happen, if the player exceeded the army limit (1 per 4 cities)?

What does the AU High Council think about this as temporary solution?

EDIT: Forget this one. I just saw alexmans comment from yesterday in the C3C forum.

alexman · May 19, 2004, 11:27

I'll bump the Jaguar Warrior thread with your comment, thanks!

As for the Army solution, it was suggested in the Army thread, but it didn't get much support because of the limitation that you can't get another Army once you already have one.

Bibor · June 15, 2004, 10:12

Hi to all! I'm new to the Apolyton but hell i played all 3 civ's and SMAC! :P
I have a suggestion to the AU C3C mod 1.05 (its great as is, but I have a suggestion for improvement).

1. AI is not using cannons for offense. This is okay since it has some several other units to compensate (archer, bowman etc.), but, aside from this ai bug (i.e. AI never really does a planned invasion), i think that there might be a problem solver...
2. Maybe one of the reasons AI does not use cannons is that they are wheeled. ? I rarely saw'em build chariots too... okay, i don't build chariots etiher, but they rock at exploration for non exp. civs. (except if surrounded by mts and swamps)...
3. Anyway, my suggestion is to include, from cannons to modern a lesser, weaker but portable type of cannon (as they really exist) without the "wheeled" attribute. The ancient age equivalent would be the Ballista, and the medieval age equivalent would be the "repeating ballista" (i think its called helepolis or something).

This would make a "fine tuning" of units, since you would have the choice of units:
- heavy artillery (4.ex catapult)
- special artillery (4ex. ballista)
- defense unit (4ex. spearman)
- special defense unit (4ex. archer)
- offense unit (4ex. swordsman)
- special offense unit (4ex. horseman)

There's already a similar tactis in modern naval combat:
- transport unit (transport)
- special transport unit (carrier)
- defense unit (destroyer)
- special naval defense unit (AEGIS)
- naval domination unit (cruiser)
- special naval domination unit (battleship)

:P

Bibor

alexman · June 15, 2004, 10:40

Thanks for the suggestion, but the AI doesn't use cannons because they are ground bombardment units, not because they are wheeled. Tanks are wheeled in the AU mod, and the AI uses them fine.

Bibor · June 15, 2004, 11:01

Hmm, yes, i noticed now in your html txt which came with AU. One question though: what's wrong with land bombardment? THey couldn't supply the AI with enugh info about how to use them properly? Then why is it in the game? Multiplayer is definitely not the main purpose of civ3 since the netcode is a disaster (even in lan), so how come AI cannot use bombard units properly? "bombard units" are 1/5 of the total units in game or so...

Tassadar500 · June 18, 2004, 15:24

Alexman, when do you think the AU Mod will be finished?

alexman · June 18, 2004, 15:29

It's in a stable state right now.

I expect more changes to come after the final patch (if there is one), or if we discover something terribly unbalanced that needs fixing.

Tassadar500 · June 18, 2004, 15:37

Good to hear

player1 · June 18, 2004, 16:05

Mods are never done.

Tassadar500 · June 18, 2004, 16:07

Your opinion is appreciated

Theseus · July 9, 2004, 17:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Bibor
Hmm, yes, i noticed now in your html txt which came with AU. One question though: what's wrong with land bombardment? THey couldn't supply the AI with enugh info about how to use them properly? Then why is it in the game? Multiplayer is definitely not the main purpose of civ3 since the netcode is a disaster (even in lan), so how come AI cannot use bombard units properly? "bombard units" are 1/5 of the total units in game or so...

Bibor, this is a flaw in the AI that has been the case from the day CivIII shipped... we all just sorta live with it. Maybe someday we'll stuble across a solution for the mod, much as AI use of Armies seems to be addressable.

Theseus · July 15, 2004, 17:11

Voila... updated unit summary for the AU Mod!!

sabrewolf · July 16, 2004, 04:59

thanks theseus!

Stuie · August 6, 2004, 10:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
Voila... updated unit summary for the AU Mod!!

Nice work!! Thanks.

alexman · August 6, 2004, 10:48

Yes, thanks Theseus!

I just had a chance to look at the spreadsheet, and there are a couple of typos:

Ancient Cavalry doesn't get an extra HP in the AU mod.
The curragh can't actually sink in the ocean because it can't enter it.
The Crusader upgrades to Guerilla.
The Keshik has zero-range bombard of 2
The Conquistador has a defense of 3
The Trebuchet costs 35
The Privateer has no maintenance
Modern Armor has a defense of 14
Artillery, Radar Artillery, Tank, Mechanized Infantry, Modern Armor, Panzer can't enter jungle/mountain/etc
Bombard strength of Artillery is 10
TOW Infantry and Guerilla have ZOC
Special Forces have stealth attack
Helicopters, not Bombers, have lethal land bombard.

sabrewolf · August 6, 2004, 11:12

ok, i don't think i'm revealing too much spoiler information here, so i'll propose the following:

give NMs the offensive flag!!!
in my au601 game i've had wounded units lying around right beside cities without the AI even considering to kill it.
as i denyed carthage of any resource, it was producing archers, sent them out, got them killed (1 defense isn't the best against elite archers or even warriors) and then had to produce more archers to even out the offensive-defensive ratio.

needless to say: carthage never even had a chance!

more information in my DAR, but many here probably aren't allowed to read it (yet).

alexman · August 6, 2004, 11:31

Numidian mercenaries already have the AI offense flag, both in stock and AU mod.

We considered removing the AI offense flag in the Defensive units with attack capabilities thread, but the panel voted not to make that change.

Edit: the reason you were not attacked is that the AI did not have any offensive Numidian Mercenaries at the time, and did not want to remove the defensive ones from defending the city.

player1 · August 10, 2004, 01:30

Well the thing is that when AI builds an unit it always selects just one AI strategy and stiks with it.

So defensive NM will always be defensive, while offense NM will always be used for offense.

Now, the problem is that offense NM is pretty much same as suicidal archer, is way too expensive for its cost.
On the other hand, defense NM will usually not behaive offensively if inside cities. On open then will kill wounded units (tested in debugger).

Anyway, making same unit be both unsed for pure city defense and offense in the same times is impossibile in Civ3 engine.

P.S.
Personally, I think that NM without offense flag is better, since AI will not waste too much shields that way. And its attack will be utililzed on open against weak enemy units (tested). Pretty much offense pillager.

Theseus · August 18, 2004, 22:54

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman
Yes, thanks Theseus!

I just had a chance to look at the spreadsheet, and there are a couple of typos:

Ancient Cavalry doesn't get an extra HP in the AU mod.
The curragh can't actually sink in the ocean because it can't enter it.
The Crusader upgrades to Guerilla.
The Keshik has zero-range bombard of 2
The Conquistador has a defense of 3
The Trebuchet costs 35
The Privateer has no maintenance
Modern Armor has a defense of 14
Artillery, Radar Artillery, Tank, Mechanized Infantry, Modern Armor, Panzer can't enter jungle/mountain/etc
Bombard strength of Artillery is 10
TOW Infantry and Guerilla have ZOC
Special Forces have stealth attack
Helicopters, not Bombers, have lethal land bombard.

Unit summary updated with alexman's corrections.

Theseus · August 22, 2004, 19:11

Although I was pleasantly surprised by the number of AI Armies I saw in AU 503, I'm not sure we are there quite yet.

In a Demigod game I'm playing as the Hittites, despite facing at least two very strong local AI civs (Zulu and Ottoman), I am not seeing any Armies from them, although I have 4, 3 of which were native produced by the Mil Academy.

Assuming that I built the Mil Academy in a reasonable period of time, and acknowledging that the AI civs have been at or close to tech parity... shouldn't they have at least a few Armies fielded as well?

Or would one suspect that they are parked in the AI capitol or MA city?

If that is not the case, does the AI value the MA highly enough? What can we do to virtually guarantee that AI civs will build it where reasonably possible?

vmxa1 · August 22, 2004, 19:42

I would not expect them to have any armies anywhere. No MA build, NO Epic built.

vmxa1 · August 22, 2004, 19:46

As a matter of fact, I don't even see them when they are out to 800 or more troops. I cannot remember the last time I ran into an AI army at any level.

It appears they would rather use an MGL to build a structure, Of course if they get an MGL against me, I will hunt it down, just in case.

nbarclay · August 22, 2004, 21:30

How about if we take this to the Army thread, where I posted my response?

Theseus · August 23, 2004, 09:46

Thanks... I looked for that thread but couldn't find it.

Stuie · September 28, 2004, 11:31

I've never been a very vocal panel member, given more to lurking and reading others' opinions prior to weighing in on a vote, but I must say I'm proud of the work we have all done in constructing this mod. Modding Civ3 has been a blast, but the time was never quite there for me to fully participate in the various AU courses.

Anyway, I think it's time for me to move on. There are many others who have been far more active/vocal in this forum over the past months, and it's time for one of them to have a voice on the panel.

Thanks to all for welcoming me into this community. I will continue to lurk/kibbitz as time permits, but this is my official resignation from the AU Mod Panel.

alexman · October 4, 2004, 16:30

Thanks for all your contributions to the mod, Stuie!

By the way, version 1.06 (Army/Pentagon changes) is uploaded. Get it from the initial post.

Theseus · October 4, 2004, 19:07

Thanks Stuie!!