AU mod: Defensive units with attack capabilities

[Theseus]

So Impis were 4 Yes and 3 No.

Hmmm... grrr, is what I say.

Who here doesn;t use Impis as scouts? Who doesn't take a chance and Settler Bop if attacking a Warrior or Archer with 2 Impis?

If they are not flagged offense, what's the point of their extra move?

Can we at least put this into "under consideration"?

/me runs over to the 4-roll thread.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Theseus
If they are not flagged offense, what's the point of their extra move?

No retreat for attacking fastmovers?

Just to be sure - I voted 'no' like you. And hopefully this issue will be resolved when alexman is back. (I'm still hesitant to call for a vote when the 'modfather' isn't present.)

[Dominae]

The AI loses a lot if it uses Impi on the offense: it spends an equivalent amount of Shields but accomplishes less. Theseus' examples of what Impi are capable of doing are human-only tactics.

The AI loses little to nothing if it reseves Impi for defense: as city-defenders they cost the same as Spearmen and prevent fast-mover from retreating; as offensive stack defenders, which the AI uses quite a bit, they come close to being used as human players do.


Dominae

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Dominae
Theseus' examples of Impi are capable of doing are human-only tactics.

I dimly remember AI impis that were attacking a lightly defended city of mine, but maybe this wasn't a sound AI tactic on second thought. Also, I didn't have the Zulus as early opponent in any of my recent games - I really need to pay some attention to what the AI achieves / fails to achieve with impis.

[alexman]

IMO, the only case where it might be worth it for the Zulu AI to build Impis for attack is to get a 2-move attacker when it doesn't have access to horses, which is quite possible with the scarce resources in C3C.

So is it time to vote yet? I think so. You know the drill: we have 48 hours.

[Theseus]

Wait wait wait...

I absolutely KNOW I've seen AI Impis on the offense... Haven't you guys?

Perhaps accompanying Horsemen? Or pillaging? Would they still do that if not flagged offensive?

I've seen'em, a LOT of'em, I swear. ( I still vaguely remember this one nightmare game, back when I first started posting in Strat as rpodos, where I was cornered by Zulu and Aztecs, and had to contend with gajillions of the nasty 2-movers. But I was Rome, I think. )

[ducki]

I've had plain old Regular Spearmen on the offensive against me - pillaging iron, being a general nuisance to a core city.
Did he attack the city? Heck no, that'd be dumb. He did, however, disconnect my iron and fortify on that hill, occasionally making feints at nearby workers/warriors.
Fortunately I did have a couple of swordsmen to dislodge him.

Point is, I have seen lowly spearmen, not even a UU, being "intelligently" offensive. Almost human.

[Dominae]

I've seen Impi on the offense too, just like Spearmen sometime do. But that does not mean it's a good idea: should the Zulu build Archers, Swordsmen, Horsemen or Impi to attack you with? Playing the Impi, and planning to take out our nearest neighbor, do you blindly build a bunch of Impi, or do you build Archers and Horsemen for some real punch?

The AI cannot tailor it's offensive strategies around it's units (like we can). So it's impossible to teach the AI to use Impi as shock troops without having it throw large stacks of them at well-defended cities.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

It seems to me that the AI is far too eager to throw Impis into fights against bad odds. Further, the fact that the AI is fond of attacks by solitary units significantly devalues the ability to retreat: even if an Impi retreats, it will likely be killed when the player counterattacks. So I think having the AI stop using Impis offensively would do it far more good than harm.

Nathan

[lockstep]

Originally posted by ducki
I've had plain old Regular Spearmen on the offensive against me - pillaging iron, being a general nuisance to a core city.

I've seen pillaging spearmen, too. But spearmen don't have the 'offensive' flag!

And I can't recall spearmen attacking cities of mine - only impi.

I change my vote from 'NO' to 'YES'. Remove the 'offensive' flag from impi!

[alexman]

Originally posted by Theseus
Perhaps accompanying Horsemen? Or pillaging? Would they still do that if not flagged offensive?

Accompanying offensive units is one of the main tasks of defensive units, along with defending cities. As mentioned above, defensive units do pillage, usually when the unit they had been escorting was lost.

Note that if they have good odds (against a redlined unit, for example) defensive units actually attack! This is not very common, but I have seen it happen, especially with Musketmen, but also with Spearmen.

My vote remains 'Yes'.

[alexman]

Ahem.
24 hours later, and just 2 votes out of 7?

[Edit: that was 48 hours, and it's now almost 72]

[Stuie]

Originally posted by alexman
Ahem.
24 hours later, and just 2 votes out of 7?

Sorry. I'm usually not on 'poly much over the weekend. That's what work is for.

Anyway, I too will switch my vote to "YES" for removing the offense flag from the Impi. Hopefully that will also allow the Zulul to last a little longer in some games.

[alexman]

Thanks Stuie.

OK, 3 days later and we need two more votes to make it official. Come on guys!

[Dominae]

'Yes' to removing the AI offense flag from Impi (I think that's what were voting on, right?).


Dominae

[Theseus]

I concede: Changed to yes.