ModPack Update: please help find bugs!

[Snog]

Well, I'm getting real close to submitting my ModPack to apolyton. On the agenda is to finish a few civilopedia descriptions (I have done many already), then I will play through it once more myself, looking for bugs, and then submit it.

In the mean time if you guys could play through it and look for bugs that would be great. I've had a lot of great comments up to this point, which have helped me to change the ModPack a lot over months, so if you have major comments not just little bug fixes, you can send those, too.

What is available for download is now updated. A lot of tweaks are included since the last update as well as 3 new wonders, and changes to the terrain.

You can download it here : http://aspen.mine.nu/civ2/oldnew/

I took down the screenshots a couple months ago after I changed the terrain graphics, but after I play it again, I'll have some screen shots for you. If anyone takes their own screen-shots of something interesting happening in the game, I would love to have 'em Just let me know, and i'll contact you and get them from you so I can post them on the site.

Well, I hope you like the ModPack. I know I do. It's a fun change of surroundings when the original game gets boring, and it plays a lot like the original game, too; so it's my second favorite way to play the game after the original.

[Henrik]

Isn't it more of a scenario than a modpack (although most files have been edited)

[Snog]

Could be either. By the way thanks for the mac version once again Henrik. It's on the site now.

[BeBro]

Just played the first turns, here are some thoughts:

Generally I like the idea, and its really fun to play. One thing I would change are the plague events. The idea is very good, but they wiped out the Iroquis after only some turns in my game (I was the Incas). You could change them to IfTurn events that happen only after a given number of turns, there is enough events space left under MGE.

The weak point of this solution is that a player can cheat if he has played your scn/mod before, or if he checked the events file (he can block all squares in the city radius before the event happens). Another possibility is to trigger the plague, when other civs (the Europeans) reach techs that are not accessible too early. Since this is not related to a number of turns, the player can´t prepare for that, so perhaps this solution is better.

Another suggestion: the Barbarian (?) cities in South America were a bit too easy to capture, in my eyes. I captured/destroyed most of them with the slingers/archers I had from the beginning in a short time.
It would also be nice, if there would Barbarian warriors pop up there that attack my cities.

Since the slave unit is also a trader, perhaps it should also ignore ZOCs?

[Henrik]

quote: Originally posted by BeBro on 03-11-2001 10:37 AM One thing I would change are the plague events. The idea is very good, but they wiped out the Iroquis after only some turns in my game (I was the Incas). You could change them to IfTurn events that happen only after a given number of turns, there is enough events space left under MGE. The weak point of this solution is that a player can cheat if he has played your scn/mod before, or if he checked the events file (he can block all squares in the city radius before the event happens). Another possibility is to trigger the plague, when other civs (the Europeans) reach techs that are not accessible too early. Since this is not related to a number of turns, the player can´t prepare for that, so perhaps this solution is better.

I have been a playtester for this scenario a long time and I never noticed the irouqeese getting totaly squesed by the plague, they will usually have expanded enough to not lose to much and rebuild their capital very quick. I kind of like the "random" effect of it...
[This message has been edited by Henrik (edited March 11, 2001).]

[BeBro]

Yes, the Iroqouis thing may be different in the next game. But another suggestion is to relate the plague to the appearance of Europeans in America (since they caused these plagues): you can create special European units via event n America that cause the plague event when killed. Just an idea

[Henrik]

The plague appears when a native unit is first killed so that is probably done to simulate that it is europeans that's spreading the diseases.

[Henrik]

Well that would make it possible to trigger several plagues since there are more european nations than Indians, I do think you've got a point though.
Lets se what Snog thinks when he gets online

[BeBro]

Yes, I know, but since the Europeans weren´t active in America in the first turns, the first natives may be rather killed when fighting against the (also native) Barbs. This happened in my game when I lost my first unit against one of these Barb cities.

[Henrik]

I guess that is a little strange but the same thing could happen in your solution if, say the europeans attacked eachoter first.
[This message has been edited by Henrik (edited March 11, 2001).]

[BeBro]

But you can specify attacker and defender in the IfUnitkilled event to prevent that the plague is triggered when Europeans fighting eachother. You need of course several of these events for the different civs, but currently the events.txt has only 12kb, there´s much more room

[Snog]

Thanks for responding, bebro. I agree with you, it does seem strange when a nation is devastated by disease before they even seem to have contact with the europeans. Negotiation trigger would make the most sense, but then it could be arranged that you are poised to take over the city right when it gets hit, because you know that YOU'RE the one who will cause the plague.. The way it stands now, the plague could be caused by someone else , leaving you guessing as to when it will happen. The same goes for making a seperate event for each of the four nations. Then you know that when YOU kill an iroquois archer, tenochtitlan will get hit by a plague.. so you have complete control over this event which doesn't seem right. What it boils down to is there needs to be an "anybody" trigger for this event.. otherwise the player has too much control over it. Receiving technology is an option I hadn't considered: but once again I feel that even this gives too much control to crafty players. Consider the following.. I am the iroquois and I know when I discover literacy Cuzco gets hit by a plague. Then I form a pact with henrik the portuguese to be outside of the city right when I get the tech. I could make the event happen when elite warriors are killed which don't come into play until later in the game.. but then the event is much less likely to ever happen at all, because sometimes the natives just get other techs instead, until a european gives them gunpowder.. also the elite warriors are less likely to die.

The way it is now it is too hard to control the event which adds an element of randomness which is good although at times, can sacrifice some realism. I think it is slightly better than having a random event, which I used to, because then it could even happen on turn 1!!

As far as blockading against the plague: I put the plague starting point in places that make that very impractical. As a fairly experienced player of the native civs, my policy is just to accept that it probably will happen, and not try to stop it.

The worst point I have seen against this event is when the plague affects european troops. It is quite possible for the plague to strike a european controlled city!!

About the incas start.. yes they have it the easiest.. in fact I can usually control the entire south america withing 20 turns (but that was before I added the single warrior near the incan empire which may slow them down 1 turn). I dont want to put random events or turn intervals to create troops. I also dont want to put more troops inside the cities thus reducing the chance of taking them whole. (I want to leave most without walls as well.) What I could do is scatter a few more troops around the map with one time events or have them there at the start. Maybe I should do this. I thought the inca start was too easy, myself.. so I added that one warrior you see at the start. ( Guess he wasn't enough to hold back your armies ) Ok here's what I will do.. I will add some events with no text attached to add independent troops in various pre-selected places. I think I will add some randomly triggered warriors in the north american west that could possibly represent such figures as geronimo or sitting bull. For troops appearing at set times : maybe 2 phalanxes and 2 slingers in south america, and also, a couple of warriors near huron to slow down the iroquois a bit. I could also make a couple of events to send waves of indepedent troops against the native civs. OK, then I think it's time to step up the strength of the independent attack force a little bit .

Another tip.. play on the hardest level, and the independent settlements will build more and tougher troops.

--Adam

[Snog]

Update:

I am currently adding more independent native troops to form a barrier in both north and south america. This barrier won't be too hard to break through (if it doesn't wander off ), but it should give you the feeling that you actually have to face some native opposition to expand, and it should make the players a little bit more cautious about pushing into the undiscovered territories. Previously, almost all native troops just stayed in their small settlements. I am also adding random events so that the independent natives preform organized raids.

--Snog

[Snog]

Update:

I beefed up the independent native armies a bit and added some random events to make them try to raid settlements. So now it's very important that people test this! Of course, I will test it myself, and thanks to Bebro for the suggestion.

The updated version is available for download at
http://aspen.mine.nu/civ2/oldnew

--Snog

[Henrik]

You might want to decide how to sign your posts:
Adam or Snog

[Snog]

hehehe..

[Snog]

Well, I've been testing how the new independent natives do. In my game as the Spanish I'm up to 1700 so far. I've lost one dragoon to a native ambush. Also I noticed that the Incas lost one of cities (the only one without a wall) to indpendent raids. The overall expansion of the civs doesn't seem to have been affected much. So the net effect seems to be a stronger native counter-attack, but the defense is still just as weak. The next step I could take would be to increase native defense in their settlements. I think I'll do that.

--Snog

[Snog]

Update:

Beefed up Independent city defenses. Still working on civilopedia descriptions. I think I would like to play one more multiplayer game before I release it. If I can't get that to work before I'm done the descriptions, I think a single-player game will do.

Edit: By the way: the latest changes are reflected on the OldNew site: http://aspen.mine.nu/civ2/oldnew

--Snog

[This message has been edited by Snog (edited April 07, 2001).]

[Henrik]

I will be happy to play another multiplayer game, I can play all week if needed (I am free from school)