CanPol Thread: the United Right etc.

KrazyHorse · December 3, 2003, 02:52

Remember when I said that PCers might even flee to the NDP rather than vote for a party which is dominated by Refffffoooooorrrrrmmm?

So. Friggin. Sweet.

The NDP now polls far and away as the second party in Canada.

Oh my God. I'm about *bleep* in my pants.

Thank you, United Right. Thank you.

They have less support than the PC alone did!

KrazyHorse · December 3, 2003, 02:54

Quote:

"This new party is maybe a lot more the Alliance than the Progressive Conservatives," said Larocque.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/12/02/cbc_poll031202

Uncle Sparky · December 3, 2003, 03:04

Paul Martin is the most right wing leader the Liberals have had in over 50 years. Many people on the left of the Liberal Party will move to the NDP once Martin starts rolling back and cancelling progresive legislation.

... and remember the right isn't united yet... it still has a couple of weeks to self destruct !

KrazyHorse · December 3, 2003, 03:06

With those poll numbers I hope they stay united. But maybe another breakup will make them look so ridiculous that they'll be left with even less support than now.

Man, what we need to do now is get a party to the left of the NDP. That way I can feel good voting for them and people will see the new party as the left-wing crackpots, so they'll be comfortable voting for the NDP.

Urban Ranger · December 3, 2003, 03:38

Start the CCP, or Canadian Communist Party, then

KrazyHorse · December 3, 2003, 03:41

I mean one that we can fool people into voting for.

Maybe we'll stage a takeover of the Greens and get rid of most of their eco-crap platform.

KrazyHorse · December 3, 2003, 13:31

Bump. I'm assuming none of the Albertans have seen this yet.

Garth Vader · December 3, 2003, 16:16

Now that Asher's not here I guess not.

Cool about the NDP, but then I am from commie land!

Richelieu · December 3, 2003, 18:28

Lets give it some time. Either the Centre Right will overtake the new party... or they'll just move to the new Libs.

" And at 8:00:01, CBC predicts a majority Liberal government... well... make that...actually we predict a unanimous Liberal government."

lord of the mark · December 3, 2003, 18:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Uncle Sparky
Paul Martin is the most right wing leader the Liberals have had in over 50 years. Many people on the left of the Liberal Party will move to the NDP once Martin starts rolling back and cancelling progresive legislation.

... and remember the right isn't united yet... it still has a couple of weeks to self destruct !

and if iiuc Martin is far less "left" on foreign policy (including Iraq) than Chretien was.

Ben Kenobi · December 3, 2003, 18:42

Martin a right-winger? He'll be no different from Chretien.

Enjoy your circle jerk while it lasts.

Given the fact that the current Right wing party has not gotten together, and is still formulating policy, I'm quite suspicious as to the timing of this poll.

As for Liberal support shifting to the NDP, I think that the only thing we see is the support for the Bloq going to the new NDP party. Liberals have always been around 55%.

More than 10% undecided, prolly all belong to the conservatives waiting to see what this new party looks like.

I'd rather be leading at election time rather than 6 months before.

So, to stand by my words, I'll be willing to take an avatar bet with anyone of you that the new united conservatives will gain more seats than the moribund NDP party come election time.

cinch · December 3, 2003, 19:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Richelieu
" And at 8:00:01, CBC predicts a majority Liberal government... well... make that...actually we predict a unanimous Liberal government."

techumseh · December 3, 2003, 19:08

Quote:

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Bump. I'm assuming none of the Albertans have seen this yet.

Just saw it and couldn't be happier!

I guess most of the Canucks here are lefties?

cinch · December 3, 2003, 19:10

I wasn't sure this was actually going to unfold this way, but it's interesting that it did, because it's basically what happened to me, personally.

As you may or may not know, I am of the age that the next federal election will be my first voting opportunity. I've been putting a lot of thought into it for a while now, and I had been leaning towards the PC-Red-Tory ideology of centrist-economics & left-wing-social-views for some time.

However, I'm very, very unlikely to vote for this new Conservative Party.

Now, I'm not THAT left-wing, so voting for the NDP makes me a little uncomfortable... my heart's not really in it.

That leaves... the Liberals. Good God, I'd rather shoot myself. I mean, I don't rag on Cretch as much as most of my provincemates, but even I can see that the party has become bloated and corrupt.

And Paul Martin is no saviour. He's twice as fake as Chretien, and not half as fun. He flip-flops like any politician du jour. Throw in his shady, to say the least, corporate connections, and I get a little woozy about the whole idea.

Still, I may be forced to vote for McLellan (she is running again, right?), just to attempt to ensure the Cons don't steal my riding.

cinch · December 3, 2003, 19:12

Quote:

Originally posted by techumseh
I guess most of the Canucks here are lefties?

Don't know if I'd got that far.

There's always the trifecta of BenKenobi, Asher, and, to a lesser extent, NYE. Correct me if I'm pigeonholing, fellas, but believe that my intentions be well-meaning.

And, of course, I don't really consider myself to be a "lefty", per se...

Ben Kenobi · December 3, 2003, 19:15

NYE and Asher might have some complaints with being placed in the same Conservative category as me.

cinch · December 3, 2003, 19:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

NYE and Asher might have some complaints with being placed in the same Conservative category as me.

You're right, and I apologize to them if they're offended.

But from my limited experiences here, it seems that Asher did have some fairly conservative economic views, while he was, indeed, left on social issues.

NYE's a funny character I shouldn't have tried to characterize. He just popped into my head when I was thinking of people who post here who don't seem to be of the CanLefty variety.

But don't worry, Ben, you are still the King!

Ben Kenobi · December 3, 2003, 19:19

I'd put me and blackice together, and leave Asher and NYE as closet liberals who don't like the corrupt Libs but will vote for them anyway.

Cinch:

If a party's corrupt and you still vote for the party, what that means is that they've bought off your vote.

cinch · December 3, 2003, 19:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
If a party's corrupt and you still vote for the party, what that means is that they've bought off your vote.

That's just conservative propaganda to try and make me throw my vote away to the NDPs!

No, no, I realise it's basically true. But what choice do I have? It would be a strategic vote.

KrazyHorse · December 3, 2003, 20:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Martin a right-winger? He'll be no different from Chretien.

Enjoy your circle jerk while it lasts.

Given the fact that the current Right wing party has not gotten together, and is still formulating policy, I'm quite suspicious as to the timing of this poll.

As for Liberal support shifting to the NDP, I think that the only thing we see is the support for the Bloq going to the new NDP party. Liberals have always been around 55%.

More than 10% undecided, prolly all belong to the conservatives waiting to see what this new party looks like.

I'd rather be leading at election time rather than 6 months before.

So, to stand by my words, I'll be willing to take an avatar bet with anyone of you that the new united conservatives will gain more seats than the moribund NDP party come election time.

The CA *ahem* United Right will almost certainly gain more seats than the NDP due solely to the fact that their support is concentrated in Alberta and BC, whereas the NDP has support nationwide.

Ben Kenobi · December 3, 2003, 20:15

Eh, lots of tough talk, but little substance. Glad to see that you consider this poll worthless when it comes to an actual election.

And cinch, you called the party corrupt, not me. You want to vote for a corrupt party, be prepared to hear calls of selling out.

KrazyHorse · December 3, 2003, 20:23

Quote:

Eh, lots of tough talk, but little substance

Quote:

Glad to see that you consider this poll worthless when it comes to an actual election

I like how you take something I say and then somehow decide it means something different.

Not at all. I expect the CA to lose some seats and the NDP to gain some. The lost CA seats will be shared between the libs and the NDP...

If you want a bet, how about: assuming the United Right party forms and that Martin holds an election within 6 months of today, I will take an avatar bet with you that the "moribund" NDP will poll higher nationwide than the ever-dynamic CRAAP.

notyoueither · December 3, 2003, 20:39

Actually, it was very easy to vote for McLellan the time I did. She was energy minister and the oil industry was singing her praises. WTH, she was doing a good job and she was in cabinet. Good for Alberta and good for Edmonton.

The next election I did not vote for her. The smell of the Mangler was building up and I didn't care so much to lend further support. McLellan was also no longer in energy.

This next election... we'll see. I try to make a habit of not jumping to conclusions about people before they've had a chance. I'll watch and see what Martin does. I'll also watch and see who wins the leadership (and policy making) of the new Tories. If the wing nuts win and we can look forward to more lunacy like an MP musing about recriminalising homosexuality, then I'll have to choose between Liberals and a spoiled ballot.

Oh, and Ben, if thinking that fundamentalist ideology and ethnocentric views should not be stamped on the whole country for the sake of those who hold those positions makes me a iberal, then paint me red and call me proud to be a liberal.

notyoueither · December 3, 2003, 20:43

Quote:

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
If you want a bet, how about: assuming the United Right party forms and that Martin holds an election within 6 months of today, I will take an avatar bet with you that the "moribund" NDP will poll higher nationwide than the ever-dynamic CRAAP.

Hey, hey, hey... them's Tories you're calling CRAAP. That wasn't anything to do with the Tories. Those were the same people who thought that Mr. Day would do well in a swimsuit competition who did that.

St Leo · December 3, 2003, 21:04

NDP! NDP! NDP!

Go, Greens, go!

An NDP federal government in 2012!

Of course, you knew I was going to say that.

Ben Kenobi · December 3, 2003, 21:52

Quote:

Oh, and Ben, if thinking that fundamentalist ideology and ethnocentric views should not be stamped on the whole country for the sake of those who hold those positions makes me a liberal, then paint me red and call me proud to be a liberal.

I wonder what makes the new party 'racist?' The former Alliance ran more minority candidates for MP than the Liberals.

As for the religion issue, are all the Alliance members Christian? If we are going by the views of one person representing the entire party, then we can get into some interesting discussions of the liberals.

Ben Kenobi · December 3, 2003, 21:54

Quote:

assuming the United Right party forms and that Martin holds an election within 6 months of today, I will take an avatar bet with you that the "moribund" NDP will poll higher nationwide than the ever-dynamic CRAAP.

Who cares about percentages. Seats are what's going to get you in power.

notyoueither · December 3, 2003, 22:08

Unfortunately, not enough seats if the people of Ontario can't bring themselves to support you over the Liberals or the NDP.

I actually think that there is a real danger that Ontario could turn to the NDP when they collectively decide that the Liberals have been in too long. Yes, I say danger, because I don't think Canada can afford to chance our economic future on the party that has been in power in Ontario and BC on the chance that we get the party that has done well in Saskatchewan.

notyoueither · December 3, 2003, 22:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

I wonder what makes the new party 'racist?' The former Alliance ran more minority candidates for MP than the Liberals.

As for the religion issue, are all the Alliance members Christian? If we are going by the views of one person representing the entire party, then we can get into some interesting discussions of the liberals.

I said neither that the Alliance were all racist, nor that they were all fundamentalist.

You said closet liberal. I took the opportunity to point out that I would be proud to be a liberal as an alternative to supporting a party that has frequently been caught in gaffs involving religion, morality, and/or a complete lack of any ability to understand the realities of Canada East of Manitoba.

I mean, come on, the guy was their family affairs critic. They didn't know that he was a flaming homophobe? The fact that he is a homophobe and an MP is not the problem, it is that he was given a position within the caucus higher than being critic of stamp licking; and especially a position where his... Medieval views would be bound to come out. Now, either everyone associated with that party is monumentally incompetent, or nobody questioned his appointment for other reasons. I'll give you the possibility of incompetence; they were about to name themselves CRAAP, afterall.

Ben Kenobi · December 3, 2003, 22:42

All-right. I apologise for the label closet liberal.

Quote:

I mean, come on, the guy was their family affairs critic. They didn't know that he was a flaming homophobe? The fact that he is a homophobe and an MP is not the problem, it is that he was given a position within the caucus higher than being critic of stamp licking; and especially a position where his... Medieval views would be bound to come out. Now, either everyone associated with that party is monumentally incompetent, or nobody questioned his appointment for other reasons. I'll give you the possibility of incompetence; they were about to name themselves CRAAP, afterall.

Scuttlebutt out here is that he's trying to sink the merger and found strange bedfellows with the liberal rags. Suggestion is that this was a staged event.

The motivations of the MP is that this current party is not going to be socially conservative, a concern shared by many, and that these statements were timed to cause the greatest possible damage to the merger. Your additions add to this theory, in that this is the first time they've had problems with this minister.