CanPol Thread: the United Right etc.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
(23.6)
ALLIANCE

(51.4)
LIBERAL

Interestingly, the Alliance polled about 25% nationally, so they did not do much worse in Ontario as they did across Canada.

http://www.sfu.ca/~aheard/elections/results.html

So there you go. It's about as accurate to say that no one voted for them, as it is to say that they got as many votes as the Liberals.

No it isn't, because if they'd won close to as much of the popular vote of Ontario as the Libs did then they'd have a chance of capturing seats in ontario. Polling at under half of your competition is not within grasping distance.

[KrazyHorse]

Most often social conservatives in Western countries like Canada are associated with the Christian Right, as no other group has close to the numbers necessary to enforce their views on others.

[Ben Kenobi]

But neither is ti correct to say that no one past Winnipeg voted for them.

Most often social conservatives in Western countries like Canada are associated with the Christian Right,

Are they all Christians? Is one required to be a Christian to be a Conservative? No. Perhaps you should actually examine the platform of the Alliance party to actually understand what it means to be social conservative. You are not required to even be religious to be socially conservative.

[lord of the mark]

Uh, beg pardon, but it sure dont sound like east and west of Canada are one country, now does it?

[Uncle Sparky]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


I accept your bet. How long should we keep the avatars?

Ten days begining with the day after the next federal election.

[Richelieu]

Pssst! Psssst!

Chretien is gone!

No, no: really! He's GONE!

[cinch]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Uh, beg pardon, but it sure dont sound like east and west of Canada are one country, now does it?

What would make you say that??

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by cinch


What would make you say that??

er, things like this

"Too bad nobody east of manitoba will vote for this party. "

And

"Do you honestly not understand how little respect anybody in Central or Eastern canada has for the Refffoooooorrrm branch? You know all those social conservative policies? They don't play there at all."

I mean we have regionalism down here, but nothing like this. Sounds like the western provinces have a range of views on social issues roughly similar to the States, and Eastern Canada is more like scandinavia - and thats JUST the social issues, NOT language issues. Or economic issues, heaven help us.


Nine nations of North America, anyone?

[Ben Kenobi]

Ten days begining with the day after the next federal election.

Deal.

If the new Conservatives win more seats than the NDP, you wear my choice of avatar, and if the NDP wins more seats than the conservatives, I will wear your choice of avatar. The period will be 10 days starting from the day after the next federal election.

LoTM:

We haven't even gotten to the friendly folks in Quebec of whom 49% voted to secede entirely from Canada.

[cinch]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

I mean we have regionalism down here, but nothing like this. Sounds like the western provinces have a range of views on social issues roughly similar to the States, and Eastern Canada is more like scandinavia - and thats JUST the social issues, NOT language issues. Or economic issues, heaven help us.

Well, the quotes you cited were generalizations. Indeed, the majority of Easterners are more socially left-wing, but that doesn't mean they ALL are. Same with the West; you have a majority of social conservatives, but there are still a good number of progressives.

I mean, yeah, certain parties are more popular in certain areas... Is that really so strange?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Deal.

If the new Conservatives win more seats than the NDP, you wear my choice of avatar, and if the NDP wins more seats than the conservatives, I will wear your choice of avatar. The period will be 10 days starting from the day after the next federal election.

LoTM:

We haven't even gotten to the friendly folks in Quebec of whom 49% voted to secede entirely from Canada.

and the other half want to stay in cause they think its a good deal for Quebec, and better than being left alone to face the cultural onslaught from the US of A.

But i knew that already. What I didnt quite know, (havent spent much time with Canadians in RL in several years) was how bad the divisions were within anglo-Canada.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by cinch


Well, the quotes you cited were generalizations. Indeed, the majority of Easterners are more socially left-wing, but that doesn't mean they ALL are. Same with the West; you have a majority of social conservatives, but there are still a good number of progressives.

I mean, yeah, certain parties are more popular in certain areas... Is that really so strange?

the republicans do better in the deep south, and the Dems in the northeast, etc.

But the implication of the posts i quoted above is that the social views espoused by a majority in Western Canada (not all of course, even down here we've all heard about potgrowing in BC, etc) are totally alien to virtually everyone east of Thunder Bay. I mean to make the same argument down here, - GOP social conservatism alien to coastal liberals - youd either have to focus on really marginal liberal strongholds like Vermont or youd have to ignore the large numbers of social conservatives even in places like Boston or New York. Are there really significant numbers of social conservatives in eastern Ontario, in Quebec, or the Maritimes? Im just saying that it didnt sound like it from the above exchange.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
But i knew that already. What I didnt quite know, (havent spent much time with Canadians in RL in several years) was how bad the divisions were within anglo-Canada.

I think you are reading too much into hyped up posts from the POV of people who are at the other end of the political spectrum from what was the Reform party, and the Conservatives for that matter.

There are regional issues, that is very true. However, what you quoted from this thread is more a difference of political affiliation than regional squabbling.

What Ben has pointed out partly, is that people did indeed vote for the old Reform East of Manitoba. Part of the problem was that others were voting for the old Tories. Still others would have voted strategically, perhaps for a Liberal if they gathered that the right was unlikely to form a government while fighting amongst themselves and that it might be better to have representation in government.

Of course it is true that some of the socially conservative tones of Reform are a turn off to many Canadians, many Westerners in that number.

In short, there is some chortling being done by supporters of a left wing party at the expense of their nemeses on the right. It's OK, because they are never going to get close to power themselves, so they might as well get their kicks in now while the right is down. Believe me, the right is about as down as it is ever going to get in this country. Eventually, a majority of Canadians are going to want a change of governing parties. When that day comes, it is highly unlikely that conservatives across the country will unite with those in the centre to elect the NDP.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
But the implication of the posts i quoted above is that the social views espoused by a majority in Western Canada (not all of course, even down here we've all heard about potgrowing in BC, etc) are totally alien to virtually everyone east of Thunder Bay.

While the majority of Albertans are right-wingers, I think it would be debatable about whether a majority of them are social conservatives.

As for the other western provinces, the left wingers are stronger there than in the east. The NDP govern Manitoba and Saskatchewan, and during the 90s, BC.

The big difference between the east and west is that federal Liberal Party is much more despised in the west.

[cinch]

HE'S BAAAAACK!





****************************************
Broadbent back in the game

OTTAWA - Former federal NDP leader Ed Broadbent said the "deepening of inequality in Canada" has prompted him to re-enter politics.


The 67-year-old will run for the nomination in his downtown Ottawa riding, Ottawa Centre.

"I do so both enthusiastically and with great optimism," Broadbent said just steps away from Carleton University's campus food bank, accompanied by current NDP Leader Jack Layton.

Broadbent said if nominated and elected, he would "work flat out for all the people in Ottawa Centre."

Broadbent lamented that social democrats who used to play important roles in both the Liberal and Progressive Conservative parties are now "non-existent."

But he said the "overriding reason (for his return) is the deepening of inequality in Canada." He added that the government's commitment to the equality of all citizens has "virtually disappeared."

ED BROADBENT
Born:
March 21, 1936, in Oshawa, Ont. (his father was an autoworker)

Education:
BA philosophy; MA philosophy of law; PhD in political science

Roles/milestones:
– First elected to House of Commons as MP for Oshawa-Whitby in 1968.

–Leader of the federal NDP (1975-1989).

– Member of Privy Council (beginning April 17, 1982).

– President of the International Centre for Human Rights and Democratic Development: (1990).

– Officer of the Order of Canada (beginning 1993).

– Political science professor at York University (1965-68); visiting fellow at Oxford University (1996-97); chair of the Institute for the Humanities, Simon Fraser University (1997-99); Skelton-Clark fellow, Queen's University (1999-2000).




Anticipating Broadbent's return, Ottawa Centre's Liberal candidate Richard Mahoney said the New Democrats are engaged in "class warfare."

Broadbent hopes Mahoney "continues to repeat the phrase," adding that the Liberals have "created the biggest gaps between classes in modern history."

Broadbent must first win the NDP nomination for Ottawa Centre, running against Paul Dewar, who has his own strong history with the NDP.

Layton will let that race happen.

"New Democrats in Ottawa Centre are very wise and they will look at the candidates that are available and make their choice."

The NDP won the seat in 1984, but the riding went to the Liberals in 1988 and has been held by them ever since.

The NDP had received thousands of e-mails calling for Broadbent's return and party officials started construction of a website at www.edbroadbent.ca (still under construction at the time of this posting).

Broadbent recently backed Layton's bid to head the party. Layton has been courting Broadbent to return to run for a federal seat in an Ottawa riding.

As leader of the NDP from 1975 to 1989, Broadbent led the party to its most successful federal election, winning 43 seats in 1988.

The party's fortunes began to falter after he stepped down as leader in 1989. The party was reduced to just nine seats in 1993. It currently has 14 seats.

Broadbent teaches at McGill University. He was the former head of the International Centre for Human Rights and Democratic Development.

"This is really something extraordinary for all Canadians who know Mr. Ed Broadbent well," Layton said.

"It is one of the best Christmas gifts I have ever received."
*****************************************

Hm. Think he'll even win his riding?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Uh, beg pardon, but it sure dont sound like east and west of Canada are one country, now does it?

Canada's about a hundred different countries in one. We laugh at US claims of diversity.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Sounds like the western provinces have a range of views on social issues roughly similar to the States

Only certain parts of it.

Alberta: yes, mostly
BC: the parts that aren't Native American or Vancouver, yes
Bits of Manitoba and Saskatchewan: yes

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Deal.

If the new Conservatives win more seats than the NDP, you wear my choice of avatar, and if the NDP wins more seats than the conservatives, I will wear your choice of avatar. The period will be 10 days starting from the day after the next federal election.

LoTM:

We haven't even gotten to the friendly folks in Quebec of whom 49% voted to secede entirely from Canada.

Ha ha. We really scared the piss out of Ontario with that one.

Too bad you guys don't have the balls to pull a bluff like that.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by cinch
HE'S BAAAAACK!

Yay!

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by notyoueither


I think you are reading too much into hyped up posts from the POV of people who are at the other end of the political spectrum from what was the Reform party, and the Conservatives for that matter.

There are regional issues, that is very true. However, what you quoted from this thread is more a difference of political affiliation than regional squabbling.

What Ben has pointed out partly, is that people did indeed vote for the old Reform East of Manitoba. Part of the problem was that others were voting for the old Tories. Still others would have voted strategically, perhaps for a Liberal if they gathered that the right was unlikely to form a government while fighting amongst themselves and that it might be better to have representation in government.

Of course it is true that some of the socially conservative tones of Reform are a turn off to many Canadians, many Westerners in that number.

In short, there is some chortling being done by supporters of a left wing party at the expense of their nemeses on the right. It's OK, because they are never going to get close to power themselves, so they might as well get their kicks in now while the right is down. Believe me, the right is about as down as it is ever going to get in this country. Eventually, a majority of Canadians are going to want a change of governing parties. When that day comes, it is highly unlikely that conservatives across the country will unite with those in the centre to elect the NDP.

What we need is for somebody like Paul Martin on crack to really piss off the left branch of the Grits. Then we can split them down the centre (or a bit more than the centre?) and run away with an election due to the nice folks in Quebec, eastern Ontario, Vancouver and some of the Maritimes.