Polish 1939 army in Civ 2 graphics - mistakes.

KASHANKA · December 4, 2003, 12:00

I have seen the graphics of the polish army around the site, and I'm sorry to say that most are incorrect (only some of those by Alex Mor came close).

The most important thing: Don't use this

checked symbol for all Polish units, as it is ONLY an airforce symbol.

And for the infantry, here are some photos, I hope you enjoy them.

[IMG]http://www.gildia.com/strategie/galeria/bzura2003/101_0136.jpg/*w/640[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.gildia.com/strategie/galeria/bzura2003/101_0114.jpg/*w/640[/IMG]

If someone does a good icon of polish infantry, TK-3 and 7 TP tank graphics I promise to make a Poland 1939 scenario

Arthedain · December 4, 2003, 12:38

What did the polish flag looked like anyways before Poland got occupied by Germany in -39?

curtsibling · December 4, 2003, 12:52

If Mr KASHANKA had been intending to inform us, as opposed to pouring scorn on we mere mortals,
he might have provided a link to a site like this one, to give some pointers.

www.worldstatesmen.org/ Poland.htm

Arthedain · December 4, 2003, 12:57

Btw, would this unit work?
I used the airforce thingy to make the shield (I didn't have anything else to use at the time)

edit: CURT: she's a girl *whispers* :P

Cifer Almasy · December 4, 2003, 14:45

A girl ... HERE?!

yaroslav · December 4, 2003, 15:08

hey, everybody, put your pants on!!

Leonidas · December 4, 2003, 17:48

KASHANKA has done some great work in Pacific General, and I am sure she meant only to give us some friendly information regarding the Polish situation.

Personally, I had no idea the shield was wrong.

Thanks for the heads-up KASHANKA

Cheers!

Palaiologos · December 5, 2003, 19:38

This is supposed to be a gentlemen only club!

I strongly protest on the presence of females in this last bastion of manhood!

curtsibling · December 5, 2003, 21:23

LOL!
My apologies, KASHANKA!

Forgive this slip in my usual British good manners!

Boco · December 5, 2003, 22:33

Quote:

What did the polish flag looked like anyways before Poland got occupied by Germany in -39?

Quote:

BANDERA HANDLOWA I NIEWOJSKOWYCH STAKÓW PA?STWOWYCH 1928-1945 (takze flaga przedstawicielstw za granic?)

from http://republika.pl/akromer/flagi_pl_bandera.html. Hope it says something about the flag and not something that violates slander laws in the US.

Or check http://flagspot.net/flags/pl-xx.html#st27 for a history in English. They also have a listing of military flags at http://flagspot.net/flags/pl-mil.html. Any Poles want to verify?

Nilat · December 6, 2003, 15:49

A polish 1939 scenario? Well i guess that would be played by the polish and you need a miracle to stop the Germans!

No offence.

KASHANKA · December 7, 2003, 07:01

Quote:

I am sure she meant only to give us some friendly information regarding the Polish situation.

Yep, as a Pole I wanted to do just that. Sorry if I sounded rude. (English is my 3rd language and its probably because of that).

Quote:

Any Poles want to verify?

The image you posted WAS used as an unofficial national flag, and can be used for all units, but officially it was a naval banner.

The official national flag was the same as it is now. It is horizontally divided into two parts, the upper one is white with the lower one beeing red.

To Arthedain :
Sure, your infantry is the best one I've seen yet.

Quote:

Well i guess that would be played by the polish and you need a miracle to stop the Germans!

No... stopping the Germans wouldn't be that difficult.
Stopping the Germans AND the Soviets - now that's when you need a miracle.

Arthedain · December 7, 2003, 14:02

Quote:

Originally posted by KASHANKA
To Arthedain :
Sure, your infantry is the best one I've seen yet.

Wee! I can modify units

Nilat · December 7, 2003, 14:46

Quote:

Originally posted by KASHANKA
No... stopping the Germans wouldn't be that difficult.
Stopping the Germans AND the Soviets - now that's when you need a miracle.

Thats nearly impossible

Just wondering, How much bigger was the polish army in 1939 compared to Finlands? (Well, we were in a war with Russia already)

curtsibling · December 7, 2003, 15:09

Poland's brave troops put up gallant defiance to Hitler's war machine in Sept 1939.

But I cannot see how the final result could be anything other than delayed.

The casualty figures speak for themselves...

Axis German forces: 10,000+ losses.
Allied Polish forces: 250,000+ losses.

Tragic but true.

KASHANKA · December 25, 2003, 09:03

Quote:

Axis German forces: 10,000+ losses
Allied Polish forces: 250,000+ losses.
Tragic but true.

Actually... a tragic mistake.
Here are the losses for both sides.

Polish losses: 70 000 KIA (7 000 of those were killed by Soviets)
German losses: 16 000 KIA, 5 000 MIA.
Soviet losses: 3 000 KIA

Those are the facts, checked in several reliable sources.

curtsibling · December 25, 2003, 11:38

Quote:

Originally posted by KASHANKA

Actually... a tragic mistake.
Here are the losses for both sides.

Polish losses: 70 000 KIA (7 000 of those were killed by Soviets)
German losses: 16 000 KIA, 5 000 MIA.
Soviet losses: 3 000 KIA

Those are the facts, checked in several reliable sources.

The mistake is yours, that you be sure of.

I am listing casualties such as wounded and MIA, not just total kills on the Polish side.

Also your German figures seem a trifle off the mark.

Germany:
Try someing like 8029 killed, 27279 wounded, and 5029 missing.

Poland:
Here is my figure, broken down: 66300 killed, 133700 wounded and 420000 taken prisoner.

This far outranks my original figure.

My figures are taken from Allied sources, published in 1939 and listed
in a respected historical book on the SS and WW2 by Christopher Ailsby.

Care to challenge military Journals and history?
Perhaps the Polish Government has made it's own version.
But this is the generally accepted version of the tragic Polish losses for 1939.

KASHANKA · December 27, 2003, 15:30

I won't argue on the Polish losses, as data are not very detailed. Moreover our information seem to be more or less the same in the KIA part.

As for the Gemans...
Here are my sources:
- B.Kroener "Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg"
- H.Vormann "Fall Weiss"
- T. Jurga "Kampania Wrzeœmiowa 1939"
- R. Zielinski "Wrzesieñ 1939"

All indicate that Germans lost 16 343 KIA, 27 640 (Zielinski points to 27 384) wounded and 5058 MIA(Zielinski points to 5452) .

Those are my sources and as you see I'm using modern Polish and German books.

Case · December 27, 2003, 19:24

As I understand it, there's a great deal of uncertainty over what Germany's actual casualties really were - many historians think that the Germans covered up their true casualties. As the Poles were 'sub-humans' in the eyes of the Nazis, the Germans could hardly admit to taking substancial casualties from such 'inferior' beings. Low figures such as 8,000 fatalities are almost certainly too low for what was an 8 week campaign against a large, if poorly equiped, army.

What we do know for certain is that German equipment losses were quite substaincial - litterally hundreds of Pz I and Pz II tanks that crossed into Poland disappeared from the Wehrmacht's inventory, and the Luftwaffe's aircraft losses numbered in the hundreds. Again, the actual scope of equipment losses were much higher then what the Nazis ever offically admitted, and had to be pieced together after the war from examining equipment returns.

All in all, the Polish campaign wasn't quite the cake-walk for the Germans it's often thought of as being.

BTW, didn't hundreds of thousands of Polish troops cross into Romania?

curtsibling · December 28, 2003, 10:38

War is never a cake walk, bu an stretch.

The bliztkrieg war was a revolutuion in combat, but still casualties were terrible.

As Manstein said, war is never a case of ease and swift resolution.

If you read of the USSR/Axis casualties from Operation Barbarossa in Jun to Dec 1941, it indicates what a nightmare war was in this era.

I guess it just adds up to the fact that WW2 was a tragedy for all.

A shame we have learned so little from it.

KASHANKA · December 28, 2003, 10:57

Quote:

BTW, didn't hundreds of thousands of Polish troops cross into Romania?

Yes, as well to Hungary and the Baltic states.
Poland was attacked from all sides: North from East Prussia, West form Germany, South from former Czechoslovakia, East from the Soviet union.
The short borders with Lithuania, Latvia, Hungary and Romania were the last chance for the soldiers afther the Soviet army invaded.

curtsibling · December 28, 2003, 15:03

So what is the upshot of this thread?

KASHANKA, Care to summarise your advice to anyone using the Polish insignia on units from 1939-45?

Case · December 28, 2003, 18:47

Quote:

Originally posted by curtsibling
If you read of the USSR/Axis casualties from Operation Barbarossa in Jun to Dec 1941, it indicates what a nightmare war was in this era.

Good point Curt. Again, while the early parts of Barbarossa are usually considered to have been a cake-walk for the Germans, their casualties for this period actually numbered in the hundreds of thousands. Which is certainly a poke in the eye for those folks who enjoy constructing complex scenarios which would have 'gaurenteed' a sucessful invasion of the USSR in 1941.

KASHANKA · January 1, 2004, 10:17

Quote:

Originally posted by curtsibling
So what is the upshot of this thread?

KASHANKA, Care to summarise your advice to anyone using the Polish insignia on units from 1939-45?

OK:
1) Use the checked white and red symbol ONLY for the Airforce.

2) The Red and white banner with the eagle in the top should be used ONLY for the Polish navy.

3) For the land army its the best to use a normal Polish National flag such as this:

Or a white eagle on the red background (such as Cpt. Nemo used in his scenarios).

Jonash · March 15, 2004, 11:39

Quote:

Originally posted by KASHANKA

No... stopping the Germans wouldn't be that difficult.
Stopping the Germans AND the Soviets - now that's when you need a miracle.

Oh come on. This is pure nationalism.

Cyrion · March 15, 2004, 12:41

Quote:

Originally posted by KASHANKA
If someone does a good icon of polish infantry, TK-3 and 7 TP tank graphics I promise to make a Poland 1939 scenario

As Arthedain provided the polish infantry unit, I realized that only 2 tanks are needed if we want to get a Poland 39 scenario!

Come on tank geeks, do your magic!

Palaiologos · March 15, 2004, 14:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Case

Good point Curt. Again, while the early parts of Barbarossa are usually considered to have been a cake-walk for the Germans, their casualties for this period actually numbered in the hundreds of thousands.

400.000 IIRC for which only 150.000 replacements were available.

As for the German casualities i think that the official Wehrmacht records are generally very reliable-as all things German.
I am not talking about casualities admited here but casualities registered.

And in any case 20.000-30.000 looses(KIAs, WIAs, MIAs) are only logical when fighting an 1.000.000 strong Polish army.