Moral and Ethical Issues in LOTR

[Kaak]

Do you think there is any moral or social commentary in the FOTR or the Two towers?

(need ideas for a paper!!!)

thanks...

[DanS]

Anti-industrialization.

[Bereta_Eder]

The consequences of greed (for power). Like when that guy could throw the ring in the lava mountain like the elf was telling him but instead he didn't, opening the way for what happened next. Also that other guy who wanted the ring for himself (bodurin or something?) in order to save his homeland and tried to snatch it from frodo. I also think that country next to morder, what was her name, signified Byzantium.

[loinburger]

Trying to conquer the world with an army of evil creatures is bad.

[Bereta_Eder]

What an avatar!

[Caligastia]

Smoking stuff in a pipe clears the mind of shadows within...or something.

[Dr Strangelove]

Even the smallest person can make an impact on the fate of the world.

Sacrificing crazy and/ or ugly people (Gollum) for the common good is A O.K.

[Arrian]

Definitely anti-industrialization.

Also:

Power corrupts (effect of the ring on people)
Humans are weak (fundamentally cynical view of human nature. Isildur, Boromir, the Nazgul... all succumbed to the lure of power, for whatever reasons. Though Boromir managed some redemption).

-Arrian

[Nubclear]

Trying to be deep using LOTR isn't going to work

[Bereta_Eder]

My opinion exactly

[Arrian]

Hmm, something else:

Not all power corrupts. Power designed only to preserve, for instance, is ok (the 3 rings of the elves do not corrupt their keepers).

And of course, there is the concept of blood. The Numenoreans are set up as supermen (rewarded long ago for their service vs. Morgoth), but are diminishing due to mixing with "lesser" men. That's where Tolkein gets in trouble with people looking at LotR from a social message perspective...

-Arrian

[BustaMike]

Society's treatment of people with mental disabilities, namely Multiple Personality Disorder .

edit - how come the nice tongue sticker outer smilie is all mean now?

[Q Classic]

that it's ok to be a high-off-your-ass effeminate ****er if you're old and ancient, live in a forest, and won't shut up with your damned idiotic rhymes.

[Kaak]

Also guys, can you think of any way to relate any of these issues to the works of Kant (categorical imperative), or mill (utility), or nietzsche?

[Q Classic]

no, but i can say that bombadil (fvcktardian fvckwit) was a mistake.

[Boris Godunov]

Are you referring specifically to just the films, or the Tolkien's actual views?

If the latter, there is absolutely gobs of stuff available online about the symbolism and meaning behind the books. IIRC, Tolkien rejected the notion that his books were meant to be anti-industrialization.

[The diplomat]

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/film/lotrgroin.html

[The diplomat]

On a more serious note. This website has some interesting thoughts on the christian message of LOTR.

http://www.lifesite.net/interim/2003/feb/21tolkien.html

[MrFun]

I guess the better question would be is what was Tolkein protesting at the time he originally wrote the first novel of this series??

What were his contemporary issues and controversies?

[aaglo]

Trees move, but they are slow.

I don't know what does that have to do with moral or ethical issues, but I'm sure it has somehow...

[Japher]

There's a lot of anti-dwarfism... I mean come on!!! Little people are people too. THough elves aren't.

[Kaak]

okay, so it's cheese, but here it is:

The Lord of the Rings and Morality
The recent “Lord of the Rings” movies, “Fellowship of the Ring” and “The Two Towers,” present the audience with many moral issues. The movies tell the story of a mythical mini-humanoid (a Hobbit) and his struggle, in conjunction with a wizard, men, elves, and dwarves, to destroy evil. Frodo Baggins, the Ring Bearer, has this epic quest thrust on him by fate. The One Ring can grant ultimate power, but much like Plato’s “Ring of Gyges,” also corrupts absolutely, and the only way to avoid evil covering the world in darkness is to destroy it in the fires from which it was made. Frodo encounters many challenges on his quest to Mordor, home of the evil Lord Sauron and the forge of the Ring, including the greed of others, and pursuit by Sauron.
The movie presents an epic struggle against evil, both that personified by Sauron, and the evil that lies in the hearts of men. Temptation is a focal point in the movie, and there are those who pass this test and those who fail. The lure of absolute power overwhelms the great wizard Sarumon, and causes him to join forces with Sauron. Boromir, a member of the fellowship accompanying Frodo, also succumbs to the call of the Ring. However, both the wizard Gandalf, and the elf queen Galadriel are able to resist its power. The lure of the ring depicts man’s struggle with good and evil. Nietzsche would argue that the actions of Sarumon and Boromir were acceptable, as one would be foolish not to take the Ring, and ascend to unquestionable power, as this is a natural expression of the “will to power.” Morality has nothing to do with it.
Another interesting aspect of the movie is the treatment of the creature Gollum. Gollum is a creature, once similar to a hobbit, which has been corrupted by the Ring. At one point, Frodo irrationally states “It’s a pity Bilbo didn’t kill Gollum when he had the chance.” Gandalf replied, “It was pity that stayed Bilbo’s hand. There are many in this world that die and deserve to live, can you give it back to them? Don’t be too hasty in dealing out death.” As Gandalf pointed out, killing Gollum would not follow the Categorical Imperative. Since we cannot give life to those who deserve it and die, we cannot take back the action of killing someone, and the action could not, therefore, be universalized. Eventually, Frodo and his companion Sam trap the creature Gollum. Frodo’s perspective about the creature changes, and Frodo also takes pity on him, allowing Gollum to be the guide into Mordor. Here, we start to see Frodo too as a Kantian figure.
From a Kantian perspective, we could see Frodo as a morally good person. By his pity on Gollum, and the kindness Frodo show’s him, one can see that Frodo expresses a “Good Will” and is, therefore, a truly good person. This “Good Will” wills Frodo to do his duty, and wills it because it is his duty. Frodo does not harm him, not because he needs Gollum as a guide, but because not harming the creature is the right thing to do. Throughout the movies, Frodo is motivated by this Duty and Good will. “I will take the Ring to Mordor, though I do not know the way,” he proclaims at a council. His sense of duty outweighs his fear and feelings of helplessness.
Though I do not agree with the Nietzschian perspective presented earlier, I would be inclined to agree with Frodo’s actions and the ideas of Immanuel Kant. Frodo’s Good Will, perseverance, and courage help portray his as a truly Good character.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by MrFun
I guess the better question would be is what was Tolkein protesting at the time he originally wrote the first novel of this series??

What were his contemporary issues and controversies?

J.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis and Aldous Huxley were all key members of a Christian revival movement at Oxford, but I can't recall tha official name of the group. They all decried the major modern trends of their day, arguing for a return to old values, especially Christianity. By and large they seem to have dodged the down side of the old fashioned values (repression of women, oppressive class system, etc.) It's fair to say I think that they were all Luddites to some degree as well.

[Japher]

Your synopsis (first PP) is good, but could use an intro to your own paper, mainly what of the "many moral issues" you are going to cover; temptation/greed and slavery/pit/will... Just a thought, and you could thus use one more PP on the temptation/greed aspect just to make it more complete, IMO...

[lord of the mark]

1. nothing starts evil. it starts good and is eventually corrupted. (for how the first evil started, see the silmarillion - also how even the evil ends up contributing to Gods (Iluvatars) plan
2. Whats real and worthwhile is the tangible - home, nature, friendship, family
3. Human nature (fallen state of man, will to power, whatever) the drumbeat of mortality, distances man from eternity, but also drives him to act and change. It makes him particularly vulnerable to corruption by the greed for power.
4. War is a necessity in a time when evil is empowered - however there is danger in loving war, and forgetting those things war is designed to protect.
5. Action is an escape from depression - but love (and appropriate healing) is the cure.
6. Beer is good
7. Music and poetry are good
8. Those who deal with evil are tempted to join it.
9. We grow through suffering
10. The small and weak may have deep spiritual strengh.
11. Pipesmoking is good
12. Potatoes are good
13. Beer is good.

[Japher]

14. Shrooms are good

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
.

Sacrificing crazy and/ or ugly people (Gollum) for the common good is A O.K.

Gollum sacrifices himself. Or is the tool of the Valar. Frodo is good precisely because he understands he must treat Gollum well, although the main reason for this is empathy with what the ring has done to Gollum - though its clear Gollum started out bad, and so was more vulnerable to the ring. Part of Sams process of growth is his realization that his initial reaction to Gollum was shallow.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Japher
14. Shrooms are good

15. Mushrooms washed down with beer is very good.

[Japher]

Well, duh!!! You got get the sheit taste out of your mouth

[lord of the mark]

oh and how could i forget

1. Young vigourous nations complement old, decaying nations, in a desperate struggle against evil.
2. Horses are good
3. Youre only as old as you feel
4. Depression ages you prematurely
5. Contact with the world, struggle, overcome depression and senility