"Civilization IV"... Confirmed?

[Nikolai]

Bolted mod
Tripped out

Where did he go btw? Never heard anything of him after that...

[Jon Shafer]

It's kind of a funny story. He posted something controversial in the Off-Topic forum and got banned from there for a couple days, and completely flipped out. He turned rabidly anti-Paradox and did his best to undermine the company on other fan sites. He eventually faded away, I'm not sure to where.

[Nikolai]

Sad really, he seemed like such a nice guy...

[ThePlagueRat]

Originally posted by Trip
It's kind of a funny story. He posted something controversial in the Off-Topic forum and got banned from there for a couple days, and completely flipped out. He turned rabidly anti-Paradox and did his best to undermine the company on other fan sites. He eventually faded away, I'm not sure to where.

Sounds really insane... But he and you made a good mod am I to understand... and then they hire you because of that, so all I gotta do is to make a good mod... thanks for the tip!
btw, what game was the Tripped Out mod for?

[Nikolai]

Hearts of Iron, a game made by Paradox.

[ThePlagueRat]

Ahh... but he was a beta-tester for that game, he said some days ago. I'm a bit confused now. So he was modding for EU2 then to get fame in order to become a beta for HOI ?

Btw...kinda off topic, but I have never tried the Tripped Out mod. Anyone got a link? I have considered joining the CORE-team, since thats a really good HOI-mod and I have been discussing with them for some time now.

[Jon Shafer]

I was a beta for HOI and got to join the team during the patching effort after the game was released.

Tripped out is quite dated by now though. I first wrote the files for patch version 2 or 3 and things have changed since then. I believe they were adapted by CORE, as last time I looked in their forum they were using AI files which were originally written by me.

[Nikolai]

I haven't seen you there lately, Trip. Have you left the PE forums entirely?

[Jon Shafer]

I've been posting in the HOI2 forum occasionally the past couple weeks, but besides that, no, I've been rather busy the past few months.

[ThePlagueRat]

Originally posted by Trip
I first wrote the files for patch version 2 or 3 and things have changed since then. I believe they were adapted by CORE, as last time I looked in their forum they were using AI files which were originally written by me.

That's awesome... CORE is just great. It's an honour to be here with you. What things did you do with the AI, that got transferred to CORE ? I've never modded AI so I'm just very curious!

[Jon Shafer]

It's been a while since I worked on that project so its hard to remember specifics.

Some of the stuff I did was related to the AI research patterns, build patterns, the positioning of their units and the weights given to attacking certain areas (all country-specific). I also did work on multiple files that could be implimented using an event system. For example, once the game passed a certain date, the Americans would switch from one AI (pacifist) to another (military buildup), and eventually to a third (telling it where to attack and such). Pretty interesting stuff, I enjoy working with AI code.

[ThePlagueRat]

Ahh, that sounds really cool. Now I want to do some of that when HOI2 comes out and perhaps in Civ4 if its possible. Are you planning to make any mods on those? I would need your help if I'm getting into it, AI-modding surely sounds fun.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Gerar Dean
But Civ RTS NO!.

I don't know. I felt the same way right up until I played my first HOI game last year. Paradox style/Superpower 2 style real time has alot going for it, whereas AOE and AOE clones (like RON) I agree are not the way to go.

Still, I do have Victoria and will get HOI 2, so turn-based Civ 4 will provide some nice variety when it is released.

[ThePlagueRat]

But those games are simulations, they must be RTS in order to work as if they were simulating history. They are totally superior to other RTS systems though! But our dear Civ is a totally different concept than HOI and Victoria and has always been TBS. I'm a conservative...


On the other hand when playing Civ3 MP on turnless mode and you have the damn ticker run off so you might as well end up defender when you were issuing orders to attack, because everybody moves in the same round... then Civ3 is not a real TBS. Luckily thats optional!

[Lambiorix_be]

Making CIV 4 RTS would be the end of the civ series.

I have played AoE and RoN and to me they are not that different from any other RTS game (like C&C series, Battle for Dune, Star Trek Armada 2, Homeworld...). They all come down to one thing: gather resources and 'inventions' to create more soldiers than your opponent and repeat this level by level... The only real decision you make are tactical ones.

The only game that was able to combine empire building with RTS was Imperium Galactica 2 but here you could chose the speed of the game (and pauze it when you wanted to check (and build) upon your colonies) So not really RTS either.

[ThePlagueRat]

Imperium Galactica was in a class of its own, and so was Kohan. Both were great RTS. Kohan with a pretty fun storyline as well...

Actually, Kohan is an RTS that uses some civ-like features, except for the nice RPG characters and two-level combat system, they used population growth and even used settlers to found cities like in civ games. Instead of placing base-buildings , you built city improvements, but they used tradtional RTS resource system... I just saw Kohan2 just hit the shelves... anyone tried it yet?

[Toby Rowe]

Hi all,

Paradox? Great firm. EU didn't change gaming but it showed what could be achieved as a follow on from 'Imperialism' in the way of a "thinking mans game" I feel.

I just brought 'Victoria;Under the Sun, and my computer can't allow it- so frustrating, so what is this Hearts of Iron game about?!! (will my P3 833 allow that at least?!).

I have a tech Q also, which I'd be very grateful if someone could answer in the OT section, sorry for the off-topic (essentially) post.

Toby

Oops, appears to be no OT section and discovered I'm not subscribed to any topic I've previously posted in either- was I that bad?!

So; problem: I currently have no system tray all.

I can close all programs except Explorer and still the 'puter works, except now I only have about 3 other programmes still running, not the 15 odd Windows usually forces you to run, but all can be closed

I do have a programme called "Sfcosh" which sounds well dodgy ("cosh") and isn't an original programme, but when I go to close it, it claims it isn't working anyway, and indeed vanishes.

For the first time in my life, I'm actually able to run the computer on Explorer alone- but I know it's not right, however old my computer now is.

Any idea's anyone?

Toby

[Vince278]

I thought systray helps run the sound drivers. I assume that you have no sound on explorer alone?

[Toby Rowe]

Thanks for the reply mate,

I don't know, but I certainly still have sound.

I definitely think the "Sfcosh" programme is behind it all- as my computer still functions, and that wasn't amonst the many programmes in Program Manager 6 years ago!

Toby

[TechWins]

This is a couple weeks behind, but I started this post then and was unable to finish it. I figure I might as well finish it now since I only have two small questions left to answer and nearly all of it is complete. It could still be useful...

====================

Trip, you're right I should have explained better as to what API and GUI means; thanks for doing it for me instead. Although, I still feel that if you're well aversed at solving problems then jumping right into a language like C++ or Java should be the choice over BASIC.

Originally posted by Toby Rowe
Thanks very much all!

I've saved this page to DT for reference, loads of useful info and views within it.

Sorry Nickolai if I slighted you, I actually didn't mean to offend anyone, It's never a proud position to begin from.

Techwins;

How easy is it to transfer your knowlege/skills of one programme to another? Are they really like a totally different language to each other?

Mentioning the other aspects/tools did lose me somewhat like Trip suggested might happen!
But, you have given me the names of utililies that programmers use to leap between programmes?

On a side note, what's the chance of a universal code? or are these codes actually owned by companies in competition?

Finally, I couldn't get any of the 3 links you gave to work, even using cut 'n paste, but no matter- the names are there now on the DT

Thanks all again,

Toby

Toby,

1) It's typically not that difficult to transfer your knowledge of one language to another as long as the languages are similar. It would be relatively easy to go from C++ to Java or from BASIC to QBASIC. It really all depends on the syntax* of the language you are coming from and to. However, every programming language follows the same fundemental rules, which is why some people recommend to practice on the fudementals first with less complex languages like BASIC instead of jumping straight to a more complex language like C++.

2) What I gave you are basically, yes, tools a language can use. For instance, Civ3 uses DirectX as its API**; meaning that Civ3 uses DirectX's code of instructions for its graphics, user inputs, sound, networking, et al. API's are used as extensions to a programming language, such as C++, as Trip said.

3) Essentially all codes are universal per se. There are certain things called unicode, which you could look up. However, that's not an actual programming language; it's basically used so computers in any lingual language can use the program. Most programming languages aren't exactly owned by companies, but they were still created by companies. They might hold some right to them; I'm not entirely familiar with it all. For instance, Bell Labs created C++, Sun created Java, Microsoft was apart of the creation of C# (pronounced See-Sharp), etc... Borland C++ is a version of C++ that is an example of it being technically owned by a company. I might not be entirely accurate on all that I must say.

4) I checked the status of the links when I first started to write this 2 weeks ago, and all of the links worked fine. You have to wait for Apolyton to transfer you to the site or click on the link that Apolyton gives you if you aren't transfered.

---------
* = The code of instructions that creates a program. It is the words, definitions, and grammar each language uses. An example being:

Pascal - x := 1;
C/C++ - x = 1;

That code shows that X is given a value of 1. Each language has their own way of specifying.
---------

---------
** = DirectX is an API created by Microsoft so it is only usable on Windows OS. DirectX covers tools of graphics, sounds, user inputs, networking, etc... Basically all the extra tools a programmer might need to program a game that the actual programming language (I believe C++*** in Civ3's case) doesn't cover. DirectX is probably the most commonly used API with its array of different tools it offers.

OpenGL is an open source API; however, it only offers tools for graphics, in specific 3d graphics. OpenGL is the biggest competitor to DirectX. OpenGL is, also, created to allow for portability among different operating systems (i.e. Linux, Windows). Along with DirectX, OpenGL requires the programmer to know a lot of trigonometry math.

Allegro is an API that offers graphics, sounds, and user input tools. It is a very basic API, and for intermediate, or amatuer, programmers it is a great choice. It only offers basic graphic tools, mostly 2d graphics. Allegro also has cross platform/os portability.

SDL is an API a lot like Allegro in almost every way. It's a litte bit more complex, though, from what I know. That's about all the info I know of SDL.
---------

---------
*** = C++ was the primary programming language used in Civ3; however, another language called Assembly was used. Assembly is basically a language of the most basic machine operations. It is very difficult to learn since it's syntax is not English-like how C++, Java, Pascal, etc... are. Since Assembly is the closet language to the basic machine operations it can execute programs the fastest if coded properly. In Civ3, for the unit search algorithm#, Assembly was used to help speed up the algorithm and make it as quick as possible.

# = From what I know, the search algorithm is called A* and can be found easily out in the Internet. Don't bother trying to understand it until you become VERY COMFORTABLE with your programming skills. You might be interested in reading up on the basics of it, though; I don't know.
------------

[ThePlagueRat]

Ahh, Techwins... your'e into assembly coding ?
I once made a calculator program in ASM. It was fun, but easy to get in trouble. IRC it was a real challenge to figure how to handle memory.
It's really powerful for subroutines you can embed it into C code and perhaps in other languages. But how?

I am really not into this anymore, but I think I should freshen it up...
Borland has some tools for ASM which I think works fine, I think it's called used Borland Turbo ASM. wow, this thread is getting more and more awesome day by day!

[Oerdin]

3D sounds like a nice addition to the Civ games though it will make modding that much more difficult. I'm cautiously optimistic about the game though I'm worried that the lose of corruption, maintaince, and such will lead to a game which is to simple to really enjoy. However, I like the idea of including religion and I'm interested in hearing more about what Soren means by "civics".

I'm hoping civics means he'll be getting rid of the dozens of worker units and we'll have a CTP style Public Works fund.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I'm hoping civics means he'll be getting rid of the dozens of worker units and we'll have a CTP style Public Works fund.

That'll certainly speed the game up.

[SSBLoveU]

I really enjoy increasing the number of turns, this way I can play a good game for months. If it is a runaway, then it ends earlier. I am in a good game now. I have been disappointed earlier with some military-based events ending after 50000 victory points.
What I am disappointed with is that trade and spying does not have units to move. Boats can only carry so many gems and things. In 1650, the trade of tea (China), Coffee (Yemen), and Chocolate (America) changed economy and military strategies. Spies changed the twentieth century.
There are a lot of things which could make this game better including improving AI. How many wars were started just because I had an extra iron to trade?

[Toby Rowe]

Hi all,

If they remove worker/engineers from the game I'll be very upset- creating and shaping your empire is completely down to them, doing in a "public works" slider would be awful for me, although I think the developers could easily give people the choice in game set-up?

I'm with SSB- the longer the game lasts the better, I wish the middle ages were more stretched out, and if need be, the modern age compacted. Most of my wars involve tanks, not Pikemen. You really must plan a medival war as movement is generally so slow- I love it.

Thinking about Iron Ore; The Swedish have the best quality in Europe, and as soon as British industrialists realised they ditched UK Iron Ore and started to import Swedish Ore instead, along with most of Europe; What I wonder is how on earth did Sweden manage to avoid being invaded throughout that turbulent century (1800-1899)? Even Hitler respected her neutrality in 1939- albeit with a knife held to her throat to allow trains into Norway from Germany/Denmark.

Sweden must produce some very high quality diplomats

Toby

[Oerdin]

Just like with Civ3 they are going to be designing a game where you "race to the end". Meaning the average gamer gets bored quickly and they'll likely design a game to appeal to the least common denominator instead of for a mature adience. That's fine but I think there is a market for highly detailed and engrossing games but they don't want to cater to it.

I'll just keep on buying Paradox's games since they seem to design detailed games which I find enjoyable. In the mean time if Firaxis wants to speed things up in Civ 4 but still appeal to the guys who want complexity then getting rid of workers and having a CTP style public works fund would be an excellent way to do that.

[Toby Rowe]

Colonization
American Civil War
Masters of Orion II
Hidden and dangerous (have II, 'puter can't play it!)
Patrician II(not III)
Tropico/Paradise Island
Civilization,II
Railroad Tycoon,II,Platinum (not III)
Pirates

Of course many more on this planet must have similar tastes and that is a tiny selection of mine, but this must also be a mass market yet the companies seem fixated on the 13-18 age market which is economically bonkers!
(Oh, and the type of games they think this age would like is bonkers- this is a "moulding" period for both teachers and parents-show a 13 year old any game and they'll probably love it.

I turned punk at 13, I started to bunk off school to play space invaders, went gigging in the evening, my schoolwork suffered- simply as it was a new form of entertainment I loved, so best teach the nippers about good games, not how to punch/knife another kiddie better.

I dunno, put a Versace (et al) label on the box of a serious game and perhaps it will sell as the marketing campaigns for serious games by the publishers are non existant.

Paradox are a great company, and being Swedes it would be socially distastful to release a bugged game!
I've got "Victoria" but my 'puter can't handle it- so I'm still playing EUII from time to time- I've heard it's seriously complex, yet the timeline is quiet short- I wonder if an "end game" programme eliminatator is also on the Paradox forum when "Victoria" reaches the final game year? Playing on should be automactically a choice I feel.

Is that the Ukranian flag under your nickname? How are things right now?

Anyway, half my post didn't basically post, so here's a condensed version!

In a nutshell, companies are "losing money" each week by not catering for the older gamers- my money is being lost to my local pub They are also failing to capture the younger gamer who are only familar with "punch an' blood" type games on consoles, but have no knowledge of strategy/sim/trading games.

This is a rare case of me wanting companies to advertise simply to show these thinking games to all.
Failure to do so will ensure all 3 eventually become niches by ignorance alone.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Toby Rowe
Is that the Ukranian flag under your nickname? How are things right now?

You will find that large numbers of people here deliberately fly colors not their own, something that you'll never see me do. Some here do it to express solidarity (such as the person in question above), others do it on a whim. Until you are more familiar with the posters you will have to take the flags they fly with a grain of salt.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Toby Rowe
Is that the Ukranian flag under your nickname? How are things right now?

I use the Ukrainian flag to express my simpathy for the Ukrainian people. I'm a dyed in the wool Anglo-Saxon American.

[Oerdin]

Paradox, more then anyone else, seems to get the mix of complexity and simplicity correct. They're after the older gamers who don't need Clearasil and who wants to spend a bit of time thinking about the best way to go about winning a game. Their games are simple enough that everyone can play but if you really want to be a master then you really have to think about the best way to go about things.

Civ 4 would do well to imitate that.