The Egyptians

Ision · December 5, 2003, 05:25

The EYGPTIANS

With Industrious and Religious the Egyptian has a unique set of traits that lend themselves very favorably to a tremendous ease of play. Egypt along with Persia has been a perennial ‘newbie’ favorite since the inception of CIV III. New players always struggle with proper worker management and happiness issues. Egypt has the built in traits that help mask a new players weaknesses in both areas. This can be a double edge sword however. Newer players that begin with Egypt tend to find all the other CIVs inadequate by comparison. The traits that ease play can also mislead players into the belief that Egypt is “THE” civ to play. Ironically, experienced higher-level players find themselves coming back to Egypt later on, not for ease of play, but because these really are a terrific trait combo that lend themselves to both builder and warmonger alike. If there is one word that best describes the Egyptians it’s – flexibility.

The builder will find Egypt a joy to play. Industrious shield production combined with cheap temples and cathedrals makes Egypt a top choice for any builder. The greatest asset to the builder is the early availability of temples. Egypt can crank these out like no other CIV. Early built temples add up to monstrous cultural points by the mid-game. Given a good start, the Egyptian player will be able to duplicate his temple driven Ancient Age culture burst, with a Middle Ages run on Cathedrals.

The warmongering Egyptian will also find cause to celebrate the ease of his temple building ability. Need quick happiness to keep the war rolling – Egypt has an answer. Need to expand those borders and avoid a culture flip – Egypt has an answer. Then there’s the Egyptian UU - need a solid, fast, and cheap early unique unit for Ancient Age war – Egypt has an answer. Don’t let a warmongering Egyptian get his hands on Sistine Chapel – cheap Cathedrals doubled in happiness can make Egypt, even in ‘Democracy’, an unbelievably long lasting warrior. While not a first tier warmongering CIV, Egypt can more than hold its own.

The greatest strength of Egypt is for the ‘Balance of Power’ type player – the builder/warmonger who aims for whichever victory type best presents itself during the unfolding of the game. The type of player that does not want to rule the earth, but wants to be its uncontested superpower. Here is where Egypt and her trait combo shine the most. Good in both building and warring ability, the Egyptian can easily alternate between short to medium length wars interspaced with 20 to 40 turns of infrastructure building. By mid-Industrial game he will find that the final outcome is assured. This type of player will most appreciate the dynamics of the Ind/Rel trait combo.

On the downside is the frequently derided Egyptian War Chariot. For a CIV that may have the most flexible trait combo – they have quite an inflexible UU! The War Chariot is a wheeled offensive unit with 2-1-2 stats and a 20-shield cost. The wheeled status of this UU unit makes it the most map/age/temperature dependent of the land UUs in the game. Play a large continents map at 5 billion years and the War Chariot may be a better UU than any other in the Ancient Age. An extremely cost efficient unit that can be quickly mass-produced - you will over run your neighbors (across those nice deserts and grasslands) in no time. On the other hand - if you play random maps or a 3 billion age map – you may find this UU forever stuck uselessly behind a myriad of swamps or mountains, unable to move and near useless on defense. It also suffers in that any early attack by another CIV, and you may find yourself with an unwanted Ancient Age Golden Age. There’s little middle ground with the War Chariot – usually it’s boon or bust.

So how do the Egyptians fare with C3C? After playing a few games with Egypt again, I have come to the following conclusions:

Firstly, the toning down of the Industrial trait has had a negative impact on the strength of all 7 PTW Industrial CIVs. However, 6 of those 7 have had this mitigated by having had a change in some other respect. For example; the Americans F-15 is improved and expansionist is a better trait, The French musketeer is improved, the Persian science trait is more viable, the Chinese Militarist trait is even stronger for warmongering… - Egypt and only Egypt, among all the Industrial CIVs took the toning down hit without any mitigating change in C3C. Secondly, look at any poll taken prior to C3C that asks, “which is the best trait”, and Industrious is invariably #1 with Religious 2nd or 3rd. This is no longer the case. C3C has seen the advent of the Agricultural trait and the re-emergence of the Science trait. The net result here again is a loss for the former status of Egypt.

In summary, Egyptian play in and of itself remains essentially the same. What has changed is the effects of that play are slightly weaker. Egypt will maintain its status of one of the top – “newbie” favorites. However, among experienced and higher level players they will definitely fall to a middle of the pack - 2nd tier CIV.

Below are the links to my other reviews:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=102680

Dry · December 5, 2003, 10:00

Good post.

I am an egyptian player (Civ3PtW) and I disagree on the non-flexibility of the WarChariot.
In fact all depends on what you ask to your UU.
I basically ask my UU to trigger the GA. It is usually more important than the bonus that the UU may give you. Especially in the case of the egyptian.

With the WC, I build 2-6 of them, put them in a stable and wait the best time to trigger my GA. I mean even to modern time if you want to. (attack some warrior, gun, artillery or even a small worker - you have 2 MPs - with your WC and voila..).

An Ancient Age war is going on and you don't want to spoil your GA? Build Horsemen and fight as any other civ would.
You like very early GA? No problems, get the Wheel, road to horses, build your WC and here you go.
With the WC you may decide to trigger your GA absolutely whever you want. From as soon as you got the Wheel, to the end of the game.

What other civ (Civ3PtW) has that flexibility, that easily?
Modern and Industrial Age civs will not have the choice of GA in the AA or MA.

MA civs ?
You like late GA? Or: In this specific game, you are not ready for your GA? Are you ready to hold your rider/elephant/ansarW/... to wait for Cavalry? And with what will you make war until then?
Berserks. This one is ok, you have knights to wait for 'the right time'.

AA civs ?
Spearmen-kind UU's cannot be substituted (you don't want to have warriors as defenders) and give you very little control on the trigger.
The MW, GalSword and Immortals are too powerfull to be skipped. They are exceptions to my 'GA bonus is better than UU bonus' statement.
And MW cannot be substituted at all (swordmen have only 1MP).
JagWar may accidentally trigger GA by being attacked too early.
Legions having a better defense than spearmen may accidentally trigger the GA. OK, they are better than JW, because comming later, it is always possible to hide them in some inner city.
This leave us with the Bowman. They too are not THAT important and may be substitute by Horsemen. They too need only one tech to be built. So, forget them in some city and take them out 'at the right time'.

So in short only WC and Bowmen allow you a TOTAL control on your GA. JW, Legions and Berserks allow that in a lesser extend.

vmxa1 · December 5, 2003, 14:13

I am not a big fan of Egypt. I guess the early GA's was the reason I abandon them way back in CivIII and only used them when it was mandatory in AU.

Even if you don't use the UU to trigger it, the wonder build will soon do it. Having a UU that is so weak and early is a big minus.
If you skip it to avoid the GA and it soon can't be used at all, you have lost a serious tool.

In CivIII/PTW or C3C I would always prefer China to Egypt. Religous trait was never one of my favs either. I will say it has more uses in C3C than ever because of having so many governments to use and the hit republic took. A religious civ can make the switches and non religious one have some tough choices.

Ision · December 6, 2003, 02:48

Interesting, VMXA

I was an early fan of Egypt...... but I stopped playing them as well because of the early wonder/or UU

nbarclay · December 6, 2003, 07:56

A lot depends on how good a REX you get. With a good enough REX, Egypt can get to Monarchy or Republic and still have time left to do a bit of stomping with its WCs before pikemen start showing up. And in power versus cost, it's hard (albeit not quite impossible) to beat what is in essence a horseman at 2/3 the cost when the terrain works out.

Even with unfavorable terrain, an army of industrious workers supported by spearmen and swordsmen have significant potential to slice through the jungles or mountains to the target. (Granted, doing that requires more workers in C3C.) In one of my PBEM games, I invented "operation leapfrog," using twice as many workers as were needed to road a tile in one turn in order to advance my road by a tile each turn. In that operation, each turn, one set of workers roads and the other advances to the tile to be roaded the following turn. Once the adverse terrain is cut through, the WCs do their thing.

I haven't played Egypt yet in C3C, but I'm sure the toning down of the industrious trait hurts them significantly. Getting a good enough REX to change governments with time left for significant warfare before pikes start showing up is almost certainly harder. How much harder, I don't know.

Nathan

Theseus · December 6, 2003, 16:59

I don't dislike the WC the way some do... I just try not to use them before getting out of despotism, and consider them pre-builds for Horsemen.

So IND got nerfed a bit? Big deal, build more Workers.

As Ision said, an all around well-balanced civ... and it still is so, so to me it's still a first tier choice.

Otherwise, an excellent review.

Theben · December 6, 2003, 17:25

IIRC the wheeled penalty doesn't affect you if you have another unit currently in that terrain. Has this changed?

I liked Egypts industrial bonus, but nowdays I'm more of a fan of commercial (lower corruption). It's still a powerful civ tho.

Theben · December 6, 2003, 17:26

And any civ w/ religious gets a vote from me.

Dry · December 8, 2003, 07:14

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
Even if you don't use the UU to trigger it, the wonder build will soon do it.

I play only monarch level and I don't need/build religious wonders. The only 'risky' wonder for me is the Hoover Dam... so

.

vmxa1 · December 8, 2003, 13:19

What does need have to do with it? I don't need the Pyramids, but I may build it.

Brundlefly · December 8, 2003, 14:42

Well, this is good work, Ision. One down, thirty to go. Where are the rest of the reports? Faster boy! Stop slacking!

Ision · December 8, 2003, 17:01

lol bfg9000,

Actually this is my 2nd one, the first was on the greeks and can be found in this forum, or just click the link at the bottom of the thread on the egyptians.

Ision

vmxa1 · December 8, 2003, 17:58

When you get done you may need your own top thread with all the links.

Ision · December 8, 2003, 18:32

how does one go about that VMXA?

Snotty · December 8, 2003, 18:47

To go about that your first need to write a full series of kick ass strategy threads. We all then bow before your wisdom and you get elevated to lofty heights of Poly strategy guru

BFG was right about the slacking though, what are you working on next?

Ision · December 8, 2003, 18:52

lololol

okay......... i am currently play testing out the Mongols.........

Ision

vmxa1 · December 8, 2003, 20:13

At some point you will have a bunch of these done. Make a thread for the links and slap them in it. Nothing unusal here. Then PM one of the moderators to see if they will sticky it.
That is if you get to that point.

vmxa1 · December 8, 2003, 20:16

BTW the way I am not so sure it has to be the most compelling strat around. I would think that just having a comprehensive report for all the civs would be of value to new players. Even if they disagree with the conclusion.

Dry · December 9, 2003, 05:27

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
What does need have to do with it? I don't need the Pyramids, but I may build it.

Not playing higher than monarch I simply don't know if there are needed wonders.
In Civ2, at deity level, the Hanging Gardens were a need for me.
I thought that in Civ3 at high level there could be also such need.

vmxa1 · December 9, 2003, 13:39

Desired, yes, need nope. In Civ3 as you move up, it gets harder and harder to get any ancient wonders. At deity, you can get one of the ancients and maybe a coastal wonder. At Sid, it seems nearly impossible. I think it is a combination of the new 50 turn research and no trading contacts.

Anyway I was only teasing a bit, you do want them. One of the AU games was a no golden age game and hence you needed to not use your UU or build wonders that would trigger it.

joncnunn · June 5, 2004, 15:36

Ision, you left out the most important use of the War Chariot! Until you have your GA, you can always build your UU no matter how out of date this is.

Build up a large treasury (2X is needed in Conquests compared to before), and pump out WCs quickly to upgrade all the way up to Calvary.

Paddy · September 21, 2004, 01:49

some great stuff here

thank you Ision

some other links of his
The Celts
The Byzantines
Zie Germans
The Chinesse
The Persians
The Romans
The Americans
The Mongols
The Babylonians
The Greeks
The Egyptians

now has anyone seen Ision around at all?

there are still several civs that could use his touch

we have not lost such a valuable resource have we???

punkbass2000 · September 21, 2004, 09:28

Ision left. His official Goodbye thread is in the Strategy Forum at CFC.

Shogun Gunner · September 21, 2004, 11:45

Since I don't go to CFC, can you share what Ision's reason for leaving was?

People never leave...they just take long leave of absences....

gunkulator · September 21, 2004, 14:51

Link to Ision's goodbye at CFC

Basically, he has become disinterested in the game and he has also been asked to contribute to a new game, which will eat all his free time.

Too bad, Ision had a unique insight into the game.

Daddy-O · October 5, 2004, 18:47

thanks

Mr Justice · October 6, 2004, 12:12

Quote:

People never leave...they just take long leave of absences....

only to true.

i for one am enjoying the absence.