What do the oldtimers think of these aspects?

[Solver]

I'm interested in opinions, especially those who have been playing Civ 3 for a long time, of how well does Conquests go to fix certain problems in the game.

- Naval dominance. From what I heard, navies are made important in C3C - well, this sounds good. Is that true?

- The modern age. One of the biggest problems I saw... in the Modern Age, the spaceship came very early on the tech tree, and if you wanted, you could launch 3-4 turns after getting Synthetic Fibers. Most modern games ended very early in the modern age. Has the tech tree been reworked, or anything?

- Useless units. Marines seem to be good now, but how about Partroopers and Helicopters? Do they have their role in the game?

- Buying techs. Another big issue I think there was in Civ 3, that you had to research techs AI doesn't, and generally just buy techs from it for gold - or the rare tech you have. This approach provided better results at Regent, and at Monarch and above, you absolutely had to use it. Does it now make any sense to do your own research on Regent/Monarch?

- The tedium. Some might argue that there was none, but I believe that at a certain point in the Industrial Age, the game became tedious. The problem was, you pretty much had all the strategic resources, probably, and there was no real reason to fight a war - those were to expensive anyway. So, you just sit there, colonizing nothing, not fighting, and merely moving your workers around.

- Diplomatic agreements. Does your Foreign Advisor still always know whether the other side will accept the deal, making it feel like it's the advisor you're bargaining with, not the AI?

Please respond on the points above... I'll be getting C3C regardless, just because I want to own everything Civ, and I still believe Civ 3 has the most challenging AI (which, I hear, got improved again), but the points above are what make me annoyed by Civ 3 at times.

[Aramis]

Originally posted by Solver

- The tedium. Some might argue that there was none, but I believe that at a certain point in the Industrial Age, the game became tedious. The problem was, you pretty much had all the strategic resources, probably, and there was no real reason to fight a war - those were to expensive anyway. So, you just sit there, colonizing nothing, not fighting, and merely moving your workers around.

No change there. But I consider tedium now a justifiable reason to go to war, and hang the expense

[Solver]

LOL yes, I have myself numerous times got everyone involved into a world war just because the game was tedious. While it's fun, I don't exactly like it. I'd prefer it if wars were started either by the AI, or by me, because the war starter sees that as a proftable thing to do, not because the game's tedious .

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by Rob_S


No change there. But I consider tedium now a justifiable reason to go to war, and hang the expense

Ah yes.... I have said it beofer (with respect to Civ3 vanilla), and I'll say it again here: war saves the late game.

[Solver]

So, MrWhereItsAt, what about my other points ? I remembre you as having quite some interesting posts about the game...

[CerberusIV]

Helicopters are more useful because of TOW infantry. You now have a unit that can be dropped on a key tile in enemy territory and can possibly last more than one turn. So these two units complement each other.

[Solver]

What about tech buying, though? It's what eventually became my biggest complaint with Civ 3.

[Cookie Monster]

Solver:


WRT naval prominance I would say the C3C Ai handles it well. I've had conquests now for about 3 weeks and I am impressed at the number of enemy ships that are patroling my seas.

In my current game (monarch, Hittites) I have a strong army but weak navy. My number one rival (Germans) are the sole survivor on another continent. They absolutely control the seas right now. There is no way for me to get to them with my current navy. BTW I've always built small navies in Civ3/PTW and have been successful. Now however I need to rethink my naval strategies.

[Solver]

In my current game (monarch, Hittites) I have a strong army but weak navy. My number one rival (Germans) are the sole survivor on another continent. They absolutely control the seas right now. There is no way for me to get to them with my current navy.

Definitely sounds like an interesting scenario!

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by Solver

Definitely sounds like an interesting scenario!

Yes it is. Pre modern naval combat is now more intense than it was before now that the ai builds more ships.

Modern time naval combat more closely mirrors RW strategies. You need to create "combined arms" fleets now because airpower can destroy ships/troops. Single ships or 2 unit stacks will surely get sunk now. Mutual protection is now the order of the day.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Solver

"- Naval dominance. From what I heard, navies are made important in C3C - well, this sounds good. Is that true?"

Yes more important, but not important.

"- The modern age. One of the biggest problems I saw... in the Modern Age, the spaceship came very early on the tech tree, and if you wanted, you could launch 3-4 turns after getting Synthetic Fibers. Most modern games ended very early in the modern age. Has the tech tree been reworked, or anything?"

Not really, few minor tweaks.

"- Useless units. Marines seem to be good now, but how about Partroopers and Helicopters? Do they have their role in the game?"

No, only if you want to fool around with them.

"- Buying techs. Another big issue I think there was in Civ 3, that you had to research techs AI doesn't, and generally just buy techs from it for gold - or the rare tech you have. This approach provided better results at Regent, and at Monarch and above, you absolutely had to use it. Does it now make any sense to do your own research on Regent/Monarch?"

Yes, because you have a chance to get an SGL and if you get Philosphy first, you get a free tech.
It is required at Sid as you will not be able to trade for any after the first contact or two.

"- The tedium. Some might argue that there was none, but I believe that at a certain point in the Industrial Age, the game became tedious. The problem was, you pretty much had all the strategic resources, probably, and there was no real reason to fight a war - those were to expensive anyway. So, you just sit there, colonizing nothing, not fighting, and merely moving your workers around."

For those that see it that way, it has not chanced.

"- Diplomatic agreements. Does your Foreign Advisor still always know whether the other side will accept the deal, making it feel like it's the advisor you're bargaining with, not the AI?"

Yup

[Solver]

Thanks... well, if at least it makes sense now to research techs myself, that might already be enough to refresh Civ 3 for me.

[DrSpike]

You've had to research since 1.29f Vanilla when the tech model was tweaked.

[Solver]

Nope, in 1.29f, it was still better to buy from the AI .

[asleepathewheel]

good luck trying to buy anything off the AI in the upper levels if you have nothing to offer them. Sheer cash might be enough, but would take a lot. Its pray for philosophy for me now.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Solver
Nope, in 1.29f, it was still better to buy from the AI .

Not really........1.29f was the turning point. Prior to that in high level games you could buy cheaply for much of the game.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by DrSpike
You've had to research since 1.29f Vanilla when the tech model was tweaked.

That is a function of the level and the map. At monarch or less yo need to research yourself as the AI is not fast enough. At Emp is touch and go. Deity and higher you are probably better of to buy.
Well I may change that for Sid, you will be hard pressed to buy much there.

So IMO research yourself at Mon or less, trade/buy or what ever you can above it.

[DrSpike]

Well the balance has changed on the higher levels.........1.21 and before buying was the norm on Deity at least, for a long portion of the game. I don't think that is true now.

[Solver]

Am probably going to play a game at Regent when I get conquests. And try to research the techs myself, haven't done that for a while .

[lockstep]

For a spaceship victory, you have to research Robotics (and Miniaturization) now. This should make the space race somewhat more interesting - you have the option of beelining for Robotics and rushing some Manufacturing Plants.

[Solver]

Great news on the spaceship! I had myself modded the game so that I needed all the modern techs for the spaceship - along with increasing the cost of all its parts two times. With the original setting, though, I never even got to Robotics or Genetics in this game...

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Solver
Am probably going to play a game at Regent when I get conquests. And try to research the techs myself, haven't done that for a while .

At Regent and Monarch even in the earlier vanilla patches buying was definitely inferior to researching.........the AI was (and still is) just too slow.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Solver
I'm interested in opinions, especially those who have been playing Civ 3 for a long time, of how well does Conquests go to fix certain problems in the game.

- Naval dominance. From what I heard, navies are made important in C3C - well, this sounds good. Is that true?

Yes, they are more important due to the better AI use of ships and escorts. Not as important as in CTP though with defined trade routes that can be disrupted.

- The modern age. One of the biggest problems I saw... in the Modern Age, the spaceship came very early on the tech tree, and if you wanted, you could launch 3-4 turns after getting Synthetic Fibers. Most modern games ended very early in the modern age. Has the tech tree been reworked, or anything?

Unfortunately, not changed significantly.

- Useless units. Marines seem to be good now, but how about Partroopers and Helicopters? Do they have their role in the game?

They always did depending on play style and what you expect out of them. There is a new improved para that toughens them up some in the modern era.

- Buying techs. Another big issue I think there was in Civ 3, that you had to research techs AI doesn't, and generally just buy techs from it for gold - or the rare tech you have. This approach provided better results at Regent, and at Monarch and above, you absolutely had to use it. Does it now make any sense to do your own research on Regent/Monarch?

Definitely if you want to get Sci Gr Leaders you need to be the first to discover techs. They are the only way to rush Great Wonders. Also, costs of buying techs were adjusted back during PTW patches to reduce the effectiveness of the 'follow the leader' strategy.

- The tedium. Some might argue that there was none, but I believe that at a certain point in the Industrial Age, the game became tedious. The problem was, you pretty much had all the strategic resources, probably, and there was no real reason to fight a war - those were to expensive anyway. So, you just sit there, colonizing nothing, not fighting, and merely moving your workers around.

Addressed to an extent. With the new resourse distribution, there is no way to know if you are going to have aluminum and or uranium. I would not stop grabbing outposts if I were anyone.

btw, aren't all Civ games effected by this? You get to a size that you can sit back and build the peaceful victory conditions?

- Diplomatic agreements. Does your Foreign Advisor still always know whether the other side will accept the deal, making it feel like it's the advisor you're bargaining with, not the AI?

Well... you could cover that part of the screen and just lob deals over til they accept or not, but that would be tedious from my POV.

However, I have heard of some situations where the advisor will tell you that it won't be accepted, but if you actually make an offer it will be accepted.

Please respond on the points above... I'll be getting C3C regardless, just because I want to own everything Civ, and I still believe Civ 3 has the most challenging AI (which, I hear, got improved again), but the points above are what make me annoyed by Civ 3 at times.

I hope you enjoy it. It is improved in many ways, but it is still Civ3 at its core.

[vee4473]

I don't know if it's just me, but I seem to think that the strategic resources are more scarce in conquests.

so, if you are someone that had no problem getting what you needed before, you may find a difference there.

maybe i'm just experienceing bad luck with resource placement.

[Theseus]

Strategic resources distribution has definitely been changed... expect this to affect certain games DRAMATICALLY.

[SirOsis]

Originally posted by Solver
LOL yes, I have myself numerous times got everyone involved into a world war just because the game was tedious. While it's fun, I don't exactly like it. I'd prefer it if wars were started either by the AI, or by me, because the war starter sees that as a proftable thing to do, not because the game's tedious .

[political rant] War is profitable and it also releaves tedium. If you're G.W. that is. [/political rant]

But that is the real world not civ3.

[Dis]

the tedium is still there for me. I still have one game pending in the Industrial age.

I've pretty much sworn off the epic game and concentrated on scenarios. I don't have the attention span for the epic game

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Solver
- Naval dominance. From what I heard, navies are made important in C3C - well, this sounds good. Is that true?

Not really. Playing with the ADM values of ships does not make the naval aspect of Civ3 more important. I rarely built ships in Play the World and I'm not seeing anything in the AI that compels me to build them in Conquests.

- The modern age. One of the biggest problems I saw... in the Modern Age, the spaceship came very early on the tech tree, and if you wanted, you could launch 3-4 turns after getting Synthetic Fibers. Most modern games ended very early in the modern age. Has the tech tree been reworked, or anything?

The Modern era should be slighly better, if you get there. No matter how much they play with it, the Modern era will always suffer from the same problem: it comes too late in the game. This is not a complaint, as I imagine it is more or less unavoidable in a game of this kind.

- Useless units. Marines seem to be good now, but how about Partroopers and Helicopters? Do they have their role in the game?

They have a role if you get around to building them. The units you mention come around the late-Industrial, which is basically the Modern age. But yes, in those games where I had the chance to reach the games later stages, the new and altered units were definitely a fine addition.

- Buying techs. Another big issue I think there was in Civ 3, that you had to research techs AI doesn't, and generally just buy techs from it for gold - or the rare tech you have. This approach provided better results at Regent, and at Monarch and above, you absolutely had to use it. Does it now make any sense to do your own research on Regent/Monarch?

Still true, I'm sad to say. On Monarch you can get away with doing your own research, and it's profitable to do so because of SGLs. On Emperor it's more profitable not to research and tech trade instead (using Gold for upgrades). On Deity and Sid, there's no chance of keeping up in research anyway, so saving up cash is the only option. In this sense, SGLs (the new reason to research your own techs) make the easier difficulties easier and the harder difficulties harder.

- The tedium. Some might argue that there was none, but I believe that at a certain point in the Industrial Age, the game became tedious. The problem was, you pretty much had all the strategic resources, probably, and there was no real reason to fight a war - those were to expensive anyway. So, you just sit there, colonizing nothing, not fighting, and merely moving your workers around.

Well, if you're playing to win, just sitting there will not cut it. Once you reach the Industrial era and all your cities are connected by Railroads, you can more or less automate them all after that. The only tedium after that is tech trading...and figuring out who your first target will be with Tanks!

- Diplomatic agreements. Does your Foreign Advisor still always know whether the other side will accept the deal, making it feel like it's the advisor you're bargaining with, not the AI?

Yes. Between this and the color-coded scheme of GalCiv, I have no preference. I've become quite fond of the Foreign Advisor.

Please respond on the points above... I'll be getting C3C regardless, just because I want to own everything Civ, and I still believe Civ 3 has the most challenging AI (which, I hear, got improved again), but the points above are what make me annoyed by Civ 3 at times.

As you can see, most of the annoying things in the game (for you) are still in the game. C3C is not an overhaul of Civ3, it's an expansion. Expect same Civ3 experience, only with more "stuff". Whether or not this is worth your money is up to you.


Dominae

[Solver]

Still sounds like worth my money. I'd also want to try the scenarios out, even though epic game is always my focus.

If it indeed makes sense to research at Regent and Monarch, that alone should be enough for me. Add to that the fact that it's harder to get strat. resources - in Civ 3 and PTW, I have always easily had all I wanted and never needed to fight for them in Industrial or later.

SGLs sound great, for a research motivation thing. I assume that now Military Leaders can't rush Wonders, they're of very limited use to peaceful builders. Also makes pretty much sense.

Gonna wait another month or maybe two, and then get my hands on it.

[Jaybe]

Gonna wait another month or maybe two, and then get my hands on it.

I'm sorry, but you can't do that Solver. If you wait that long, the 1st patch will be out, and you will miss out on all the corruption/FP bugs.

If you miss out on the unpatched game, you will lessen your joy of the patch!