Civ 4

[vulture]

Yet another civ 4 thread - but this one is just to point out to anyone who missed it that there is a "Civ 4 Seemingly confirmed" link at the top of the page now.

Time to start another list?

[Asmodean]

Originally posted by vulture

Time to start another list?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=103218

Asmodean

[Alex]

it seemed obvious that they would work on a new civ game, apparently civ3 sold millions of copies and they will not put all their money on Pirates!, which may or may not sell...

[alva]

So, does that mean, no more expansions?

[vmxa1]

Maybe not, it will be be a long time before civ4 hits the stores. They have Breakaway that canbe working on addons right now, if they have anything in mind.

[Theseus]

This is awesome!!

[Tiberius]

How would you like civ4 to be different from civ3?

[Konquest02]

I'll answer this one for Theseus: Marine + Berserk armies should be amphibious!!!

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by Alex
it seemed obvious that they would work on a new civ game, apparently civ3 sold millions of copies and they will not put all their money on Pirates!, which may or may not sell...

I have no doubts that Pirates will sell. In any case, it's Atari who will be publishing them (i.e. it's their dime).

[Admiral PJ]

CIV 4... wow if this is true, lets help them make the ultimate civ.

I think civ4 could be a lot bigger than civ3 in terms of scale and development.
With the success of civ3, they should have time and money to put more resources into civ 4. Better graphics, sound/music as well , hopefully as more unit variety and strategy depth.

We should have a look back at what we wanted out from civ3 before it was made, and see what still seems cool.

Things i'd like: 1. Scenario Editing: Hopefully they'll have an events engine, to allow 'plots' where for example, when you research Navigation you have to go on a mission to Explore the world and prove its round. You are given orders to make a trade route with India, by safely sailing around the world with one ship of cargo, and bringing back the map of your voyage, and in return you also get a special leader or scientific age with the character Magellan.
Civ has always been missing a true mission based system.. it would be nice to have more specific short term plots. The United Nations and Spaceship winning strategies are long term goals, which are very vague missions.. without enough detailed story/plot. I like the nonlinear style of civ, but it could be even better with a plot narrative.

2. Main game:
There could be lots more improvements on the combat /war strategy system. Turn based combat still lacks combined forces combat, where say 4 tank uints and 2 infantry units form a pincer movement to surround and crush 2 tank movements in a city .. all firing at the same time. Army unit style combat could be used.. its something worth working on.
Air power seems to be far too underpowered currently.

The trade system is still pretty simplistic, which is good to make the game easy to play but it would be great to have quantity of resources , whereby each unit needs 2 lots of Iron perhaps.. you can either find more iron deposits, or wait 2 turns till your 1 source stores enough iron.
Other things to thing about adding:
Religion (religious allies - religious cultural assimilation, splitting into christian church or muslim church ... state religions etc)
Trade routes.. which can have pirates stealing the goods, defended by your navies.

Proper Colonisation, where colonies become independant.
New transport roads and railways which get better with advances in technology.
More cultural types, splitting cultures and peoples into Upper class aristocracies, working classes peasants etc . Different governments could work better if you have more Aristocrat classes.. monarchys for example, otherwise your peasants will revolt. Its just an idea I dont know if it would be worth doing.


Basically, civ3 was great, continue those ideas to develop them into a realistic and fun deep strategy game for the next 10 years.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by Konquest02
I'll answer this one for Theseus: Marine + Berserk armies should be amphibious!!!

Thanks Kon!!

[Wittlich]

Civ 4: Bring back the Animated Advisors and Wonder Movies!

[vmxa1]

Wittlich you left out Elvis.

[Alex]

Originally posted by WarpStorm


I have no doubts that Pirates will sell. In any case, it's Atari who will be publishing them (i.e. it's their dime).

Precisely. That's why I said that they would develop another civ game: because they're funded by Atari, and Atari wants money, and there are few games that can generate money like civ does.

[Thoth]

Bring back April Cantor as the Foriegn Advisor :doitnow:

[Oncle Boris]

EDIT:
*OK, this has been posted in a more appropriate thread.*
END_EDIT

*Short* Wish list:

1. Order phase + Resolution Phase
A system à la board game Diplomacy, in which everyone issues orders simultaneously, which are then compared and resolved. This would allow for combined forces, and some interesting strategy twists: for example, someone who has achieved superiority in military doctrines could be allowed to change his orders during the resolution phase, thus simulating his superior maneuvrability and tactics. I'm thinking about Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Rommel, and the likes.
This would also makle MP much more enjoyable.

2. Give some use to naval power
Instead of useless and agonizingly slow ships who take centuries to circumnavigate the world, you build navies that are docked in. Each turn, you can assign them a mission, such as escorting merchant ships, conducting an amphibious invasion, blockading an enemy port, or exploring (the list is obviously not restrictive).

3. Social engineering!!!
What was a brilliant innovation in AC has been forgotten in Civ3. They could even create a "social simulation", in which, instead of having the leader choose for his people, your nation evolves with your decisions. If you're a warmonger, your people is going to like war; if you build universities, they'll tend to want a democracy; if you don't, they are more likely to support a fundamentalist state. If your country is rich, with banks and stock exchanges, citizens will support a free market economy; and so on.
Instead of being an absolute thing, happiness would be calculated by comparing your people's desires with your own politics.

4. Fix culture!
Culture is a brilliant idea, but it was flawed in its implementation. Instead of being an absolute number, it should be a yearly production that compares with other countries. The basis number would be 0; if you are above average, your value will be more than 0, while if you are under average your cultural worth will be negative.
This way, we can avoid successful nations in the ancient age dominating for the rest of the game.
I mean, hieroglyphs were nice in the third millenium BC, Greek was neat at the time of Plato, French was à la mode and refined in the 19th century; but it took at most 75 years for English to overcome French as the most widespread international language. No culture has ever achieved the kind of perpetual supremacy that is possible in Civ3.
Wonders and cathedrals should produce lots of culture when they are built, and their influence should gradually decrease with time, not increase.

With a system like this, we could also link social engineering and culture. At any given time, values and morales supported by the most influential culture would slowly affect the views of other nations. This cultural intoxication would increase with the discovery of cinema, radio, TV, and computers. Dictatorships could also impose a cultural embargo against any nation... From now on, though, I'm leaving the rest to the game designers. The possibilities are endless.

5. Trade!
Trade is another feature that was improved in AC but went backwards in Civ3. It should naturally increase with bordering nations with whom you are at peace. If you invest in a navy and build docks, it should also increase with other maritime nations. It should also benefit from railroad and road connections, and from some technologies: currency, trade, navigation, economics, the corporation, market globalization, etc.
Again, trade would come into play with culture: nations who trade together gradually share their culture and their values.
Custom fees, embargos, free trade agreements would be part of diplomacy.

6. Science
Civ3 introduced a great idea with scientific research: the more nations know about something, the easier it is to research it. This concept sould be further expanded. Research is conducted automatically, and again based on social engineering. Warmongering nations give priority to military techs, peaceful ones give priority to civil ones.
Free-thinking nations research faster.
The government could conduct research itself on some high-profile projects, such as a space program, nuclear weapons, dreadnoughts (like in WW1), stealth aircraft.
Countries who trade together also exchange techs.

7. Politics, diplomacy, spying and others
Spying needs a huge rehaul. The importance of the Secret Services to stage coups in minor nations or create evidence in order to get population support should not be underestimated. Uprisings should be frequent. Keeping your throne is a challenge!
Governments should be different in their inner functions. Dictatorships can use the ressources of the nation as they see fit, without care for the people (as long as the soldiers are well paid!), but at the expense of trade, free-thinking, and efficiency. Democracies produce more ressources, but they can't be directly allocated by the leader.

Democracy does NOT bring wealth; wealth brings the need for greater social justice, and thus, unions and human rights. As Ford understood, it is in everyone's interest that the workers can afford to buy what they produce.

I can also imagine a new kind of victory: the Perfect Government. Either a perfect, unbreakable Big Brother-esque dictatorship, in which everyone has to share the same morals, or a perfect, unbreakable cyber-democracy defended by Robocops that force everyone to share the same morals. Either could be similar to the "material perfection state" described by Marx.

Ok, I've told enough. Whaddya think of my ideas?

[vmxa1]

Don't forget that lots of people do not want deeper trade or diplomacy (me for one). So if they do make those things happen, it may hurt sales more than it helps.

[Oncle Boris]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Don't forget that lots of people do not want deeper trade or diplomacy (me for one). So if they do make those things happen, it may hurt sales more than it helps.

Hmmm...

I guess the challenge is to make the game both deep and accessible. Just like Clash of Civilization is doing.
In my humble opinion, AC was better than Civ3, yet it was not a lot more complex. Most of what I suggest is more a rehaul of the game mechanics than a "complexification". I'm thinking about two-phase simultaneous turns here, social engineering, or unlimited range fleets.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by WarpStorm
I have no doubts that Pirates will sell. In any case, it's Atari who will be publishing them (i.e. it's their dime).

I'm not the least bit interested in Pirates and don't know anyone who is. (I can feel a poll coming...)

[rendelnep]

What about better NUKES?

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Admiral PJ
Better graphics, sound/music as well

I'd rather see better gameplay. Graphics should be a secondary concern. Sound/Music? If I want music I'll pop in a CD.

Originally posted by Admiral PJ
Civ has always been missing a true mission based system..

Because it doesn't need it. This isn't a mission or plot based game. The game is open, not path driven. I wouldn't want anything to distract me from the joy of crushing someone. A Conquest is the closest I would want to get to that.

Originally posted by Admiral PJ
2. Main game:
There could be lots more improvements on the combat /war strategy system. Turn based combat still lacks combined forces combat, where say 4 tank uints and 2 infantry units form a pincer movement to surround and crush 2 tank movements in a city .. all firing at the same time. Army unit style combat could be used.. its something worth working on.
Air power seems to be far too underpowered currently.

Sounds like you want a tactical combat map. Might be a good idea. I agree that airpower is vastly underpowered. I can get through a game largely without aircraft.

Originally posted by Admiral PJ
The trade system is still pretty simplistic, which is good to make the game easy to play but it would be great to have quantity of resources , whereby each unit needs 2 lots of Iron perhaps.. you can either find more iron deposits, or wait 2 turns till your 1 source stores enough iron.

Interesting idea but may make things a little difficult.

Originally posted by Admiral PJ
Other things to thing about adding:
Religion (religious allies - religious cultural assimilation, splitting into christian church or muslim church ... state religions etc)
Trade routes.. which can have pirates stealing the goods, defended by your navies.

Religion: May add a whole new dimension to the strategic level. Difficult to implement well?

Trade routes: Like to see this simplified. It is one of the things that greatly slows the game between turns. The pirates idea reminds me of CtP2.

Originally posted by Admiral PJ
Proper Colonisation, where colonies become independant.

Okay, but Colonisation sounds like the title of another game. Having parts of your empire break off through civil war would have the same effect (a part that was culturally part of another empire you assimilated for example).

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Ok, I've told enough. Whaddya think of my ideas?

For the most part they look great.
Random Comments:

1. An initiative system would work great here.
2. I see some similarities to air missions here...
4. Culture definitely needs fixing. Don't want to make it too complicated.
5. How about implementing a real stock exchange?
7. Too much of this can quickly become ridiculous (as in MOO3).

[JesseSmith]

The idea of having the map scale to the Era could be a lot of fun. IE: During the Ancient Era the entire map is actually just a small piece of the eventual game world. When entering the Middle Ages/Industrial/Modern the map expands to encompass a larger portion of the world. By the late Industrial Age (Flight to Satellites) with the growth of technology the entire world (game map) is available. To use the Conquest maps as examples, it would be like going from Mesopotamia to Middle Ages to Epic Game.

By expanding the map for each Era the game world is suddenly dynamic and mysterious. As with RL, as technology advances Distances quickly becomes smaller and smaller. I'd love to see the expression on a time warped Ancient Era humans face as they flew across a continent on a 747. More so I'd love to be on a ship traveling faster than the speed of light across our galaxy!!

Not to mention the possibilities this would allow for modders. IE: After battling for dominance of the post-apocalyptic caverns you emerge with the desire to rebuild humanity with your vision! Multiple scenarios/ mission based Conquests all on the same Map File! The possibilities are truly endless...

[Dis]

I don't have many ideas.

I just want them to design a cool game.

That's all.

To Firaxis: Make a cool game.

edit: okay I have a few ideas after all . These may have been mentioned but oh well. Events in the scenario editor. Better scenario and multiplayer interface when starting those types of games. And more disasters and other massive events (maybe make them toggleable for those people that don't like those things)

[dexters]

I think advanced diplo can be made into a toggle-able feature.

But I think Civ games need to evolve, and it's pretty much hit the limit as a war game. I don't want Civ 4 to go back to becoming a TBS command and conquer with 3 different kind if destroyers and 5 different kind of knights just to satisfy the warriors in all of us.

Deeper diplomacy does not mean more complicated diplomacy, it just means more options. A casual can understand how to play around in a UN, and that's always been missing in a Civ game. A working UN where players can jostle to pass "legislation" is I think quite acceptable within the Civ framework. And this can become a true UN victory where passing certain amount of legislation coupled with being elected secretary-general triggers a win.

Also, it's been requested many times, but an option to intervene in wars would also be welcome. Again, not complicated. Most players understand exactly what they want when they want to stop 2 civs from going to war.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by JesseSmith
The idea of having the map scale to the Era could be a lot of fun. IE: During the Ancient Era the entire map is actually just a small piece of the eventual game world. When entering the Middle Ages/Industrial/Modern the map expands to encompass a larger portion of the world. By the late Industrial Age (Flight to Satellites) with the growth of technology the entire world (game map) is available. To use the Conquest maps as examples, it would be like going from Mesopotamia to Middle Ages to Epic Game.

By expanding the map for each Era the game world is suddenly dynamic and mysterious. As with RL, as technology advances Distances quickly becomes smaller and smaller. I'd love to see the expression on a time warped Ancient Era humans face as they flew across a continent on a 747. More so I'd love to be on a ship traveling faster than the speed of light across our galaxy!!

Interesting. I would guess the AI civs are undergoing the same process in their own little corner of the world before they even become known to our civ.

I also can see this improving turn processing time, especially early on.

Thanks for posting. Please continue to float ideas here.

[Peter Triggs]

LDiCesare will be pleased about this:

See this post

[Slax]

All I ask is:

IT MUST REMAIN TURN-BASED!

[vmxa1]

Slax in addition to staying TBS, I would want it to not be 3D.

[LDiCesare]

JesseSmith, all I can say is YES! (Peter, thanks for the link.)
Having the world scale as the game progress would prevent a conquest of the world with knights and provide room for exploration when the explorer units come to be...