China and free speech

[Ned]

In another thread, I noted the obvious free speech being exercised by a number of resident Chinese members of Apolyton. I asked whether this freedom of speech was normal for China or whether it was a privilege accorded only to "foreigners" resident in China. I never got a clear answer on that, but it does appear that all resident Chinese posters here have citizenship other than mainland Chinese.

Am I right?

And, just how would the government distinguish between its own citizens and others in granting freedom to join discussion groups such as Apolyton?

[Ned]

Still no responses, not even from our members from the PRC?

What does this mean? They can't talk about this?

[Nubclear]

< EDITED BY THE CHINESE INTERNATIONAL POLICE FORCE : ”ü�‘™âš*�B >

[Japher]

If Ned is right don't post...

[Ned]

People from outside China are not qualified to answer this question. People from inside China have avoided answering - to date.

This is very interesting.

[Urban Ranger]

You have to PM mindseye, then.

[Drake Tungsten]

You have to PM mindseye, then.

I agree, as mindseye seems to be the only decent source of information on these boards for finding out what is going on in China. He manages to avoid the obvious propagandizing that plagues the posts of certain other posters.

[Bereta_Eder]

I knew Drake had the know thyself

[mindseye]

Ned, I am sorry I have not replied earlier, I don't have time to surf 'Poly every day. I have been very busy working of late, what little writing time I have had free has been spent on the gay marriage thread ...

Anyway, your question confirms the worst fears I have about perceptions of China by those in the west. In China's big cities, people don't worry about the police knocking on their doors and dragging them away in the middle of the night. The daily life of urban Chinese is much freer than you would guess. To put it in perspective, let me note two milestones in my Shanghai life from last week:

* I noticed a male pin-up magazine for sale at a number of street newsstands.

* I purchased a bong at a store (it was a teenager funky clothing store which had a head-shop section, the first I've seen since moving here)

There aren't many police in Shanghai, quite a bit less than on the streets of San Francisco (sorry!). Most of the ones you see are traffic cops, very few are armed. The only guns commonly seen are on armored car guards, and I think those are sandbag guns. There are supposed to be more plainclothes cops than in the US, but how many, I do not know (how could I spot them? ) The only instance I know of in which plainclothes cops were actually seen in action was on a street that as a lot of rowdy bars and hookers. Shanghai in general has less police than other cities, because even though it is China's largest city, it is paradoxically also its safest (I won't go into the reasons why in this post).

I discussed some of this with adult students from other cities, who say other major cities have more crime, especially in the south, but China's police force is not much smaller than comparable ones. To give you an idea about how Shanghainese think of police, some adults I have asked can’t think of a negative slang word for "police" (some could only report a term that translates as "wife's brother", a Shanghainese slang term for a person who traditionally arbitrates family arguments, I am told) .

Adult Chinese I speak with feel the biggest problem with the police is not fear of thuggery or oppressive "police state" type activity, but rather rampant corruption. Businesses, for instance, often need to buy "tickets to the policeman's ball" in order to keep up good relations. The cops I have dealt with personally have ranged from indifferent to friendly. I have never been hassled or treated impolitely by an official, however white foreigners are usually granted slightly special treatment (e.g. in the local Carrefour French supermarket/department store they usually don't care if I fail to park my backpack in the lockers at the door).

As for general exercise of free speech, there are definitely limits in China. There aren't many protests (they do happen occasionally), and when there are they are usually quickly broken up. However, I did once witness a handful of old people block the traffic to a construction project across the street from my apartment. The police on the scene weren't doing anything at all, even as dozens of trucks sat idling. The protest (I'm not sure what it was about) quietly ended a few hours later, I'm not sure how. If there had been violence I would have heard it or heard about it. There was a major protest downtown about three months ago, by people who were being unfairly compensated for being ousted from their gov't-subsidized homes. It was part of a local real-estate corruption scandal. The protest was quickly shut down.

I've seen cops (actually, a special kind of "street inspector" officer) cracking down on illegal street vendors. They don't play games, they just pick up the food or DVD cart, toss it onto a truck and split. Usually the cart operator is left standing, fuming and cursing on the sidewalk, as the truck drives off, although I have seen an operator or two taken away with his cart. I have seen these confrontations lead to heated arguments, but I have never seen one of these officers physically assault anyone. I have asked foreign friends (including friends who have lived here for ten or more years) if they have ever seen anyone being beaten up by police, they hadn't. I have seen people in shouting, finger-ponting arguments with cops (dramatic finger-pointing is a favorite argument tactic here), but the policeman didn’t touch the citizen (in San Francisco the shouter would have been eating pavement while the cuffs were slapped on). Again, this is Shanghai, I am eager to hear from posters about other cities.

I know in smaller towns the local police can be worse (especially more corrupt). "Small" (by Chinese standards) towns in the less developed provinces are the places where the worst kinds of abuse from public officials can take place. Typically, the horror stories of forced abortions and the like take place in this type of setting, farther away from the central government's influence. In other big cities I think the worst kind of typical police abuse takes place between officers and illegal (usually unemployed) immigrants from the countryside. I did read of a case of two young professionals who were arrested (in Guangzhou?) for regularly discussing politics in a café, but that seemed wildly out of the ordinary. My friends (Chinese and foreigner) will speak openly about politics in restaurants and bars, but there are less of these conversation with Chinese, not out of fear, but out of utter indifference to all things political (Shanghainese are notoriously politically apathetic). Students (adults and teens) in class sometimes make negative remarks about the Party. I got a feel for this shortly after I arrived, when I was studying Chinese at a local university. An older teacher started describing her terrible experiences at the university during the Cultural Revolution, and about how she thought Mao was a great leader up until the late 60's, after which he developed trouble with his head.

As for communication, I was shocked once when a Shanghainese friend started openly talking about marijuana on the phone (something I wouldn’t do in San Francisco, where my friends and I always used coded language). He told me not to worry, that the police did not monitor the phone. He said "Shanghai is an open city."

Regarding the internet, Chinese internet providers are asked by the gov't to maintain logs of all traffic, so that if the police want to check someone's email, they can. However, this is easily avoided, if desired, by using web-based email from a "net bar", where you can remain anonymous. There are tens or hundreds of thousands of these bars across China, they are a very common sight in big cities, even people in remote provincial cities have access to them.

Local friends seem to be free in their use of email, although I avoid using blatantly drug-related terms (just as I would avoid such email references in the states). Here again, it's hard to get an accurate feel over just what is permitted because Chinese friends are seldom interested in politics at all, so I'm not sure how much they would write if they were interested. About the closest thing to complaining about the gov't that a local actually wrote to me was "f*ck the post office!"

Chinese-based bbs' are monitored for discussion of what the government considers sensitive issues. For example, posts related to SARS were deleted during the early days of the sickness, when it was stupidly being covered up by officials. You won't be able to chat about an independent Taiwan, Falun Dafa, or other such topics on a Chinese-based web site (unless it is some kind of secret chat site I don't know about). If Chinese want to chat about these topics they have to use a board based in another country, like ... Apolyton!.

The topics considered sensitive are always changing, there have been encouraging signs. The gov't has, for example, opened up over the last few months about the nation's AIDS problem. President Clinton (still very popular with many Chinese), spoke on the topic at a major national university, and appeared on stage with his arm around a young AIDS activist. (I'll post the photo). Up until that time, no Chinese public official had ever been seen publically touching an AIDS patient. Since then, Premier Wen Jiabao has appeared on television visiting AIDS patients, a sign of a sea change on the topic.

There is still some blocking of web sites, although the number of sites blocked seems to have declined in the three years I have lived here. The only ones I know of import I can think of are bbc.com and geocities.com. I have no trouble reading any western newspapers online (not true when I first arrived).

Regarding the general press, some privately-owned papers have shown a surprising independence of speech, but their number is still quite small and the examples limited. However, they seem to be getting bolder and more frequent. Earlier this year there were noteable front-page protests when a Beijing health official, at a press conference, tried to minimize the role of a famous whistle-blower doctor. The health official backpedaled the next day! It is difficult for me to relay much more about the general Chinese press - my Chinese reading ability is so poor, I must depend on second-hand word on this topic.

Before I came here I sold any books I had which I thought the government might object to (e.g. an unflattering biography of Mao written by his personal physician). I thought customs officials would inspect my books and CDs (they didn’t, I don't think they ever check personal belongings of foreigners anymore). Once I realized what the situation was like, I re-purchased some of my favorites via Amazon (no problems with shipping or customs). I brought in a copy of Orwell's Animal Farm in my suitcase, I thought Chinese friends might like to read it. Imagine how stupid I felt when I saw it for sale at a local bookstore (by the way, you can also easily buy the bible).

Freedom of religious speech is restricted. There is a state church that has services just like Catholicism, alothough their "pope" is based in Beijing. I recently visited Shanghai's largest cathedral, a breath-taking French gothic number. From what I could see from a close inspection, (I didn’t stay for services) mass was not celebrated any differently (they had the stations of the cross, full-on altar, etc). However religious activity by western-based Christian churches is forbidden. People caught conducting illegal Roman Catholic ceremonies may be treated very harshly. There are temples and synagogues of other religions here, I really have no idea if there are any restrictions of the practicing of say, Islam, or the Jewish faith.

Shanghainese (and I think Chinese in general) absolutely love tv, even more than Americans! TV here in Shanghai usually comes from apartment satellite dishes, only mainland shows are transmitted. You sometimes see foreign movies and tv shows dubbed in Chinese. There is a clever Japanese game show, and two years ago a dubbed "Family Ties" was very popular. I have also seen The Jeffersons (!) and the Three Stooges dubbed in Chinese, as well as contemporary films from UK, US, Italy, and other countries. On the streets and in small shops you can find just about any recent (and many classic) film on DVD (with Chinese subtitles)

Small, personal satellite dishes are starting to become popular. They are illegal, but that doesn’t seem to stop anyone. The latest ad slipped under my door even advertised the Playboy Channel. Anyone with one of these can, of course, watch anything. The price puts them out of the reach of the typical blue collar family, but white collars could pretty easily afford one of they desired.

You can buy pornography here, but there are no porn shops like home. Here, "yellow disks" are sold on the sly in small DVD stores, and are occasionally seen being sold by hawkers on the street or in parks. You can also easily buy porn over the web, or ovf course download it over broadband. Broadband, incidentally, is pretty cheap and readily available directly from the phone company. Incidentally, state-run sex shops are pretty common. They sell a surprising array of sex toys, including all kinds of dildos and even those face-shaped blow-job things, however they sell no kind of porn. These stores are staffed by matronly women wearing nurse-like outfits.

On a somewhat-related topic, there are something like fifteen or twenty gay bars that I know of, they are not at all secretive - one is in the city's largest mall, another I have been to has a large window facing the sidewalk through which passers-by could easily see inside. These bars range from small neighborhood watering holes to multi-level affairs with dance floors and DJs. There are none as big as the largest straight dance clubs (which are many in number and sometimes quite large). One is apparently next door to some kind of police facility.

I hope that gives you a general impression. If you have any other specific questions, I'll do my best to answer them. I am eager to hear what posters in other cities think - I can only think of one other Apolytonite living in mainland China at the moment (DaShi). I think Cali frequently spends time here, in the Beijing area I believe. UR lives in Hong Kong, which is in many ways different from the mainland. Other Chinese posters are hua-ren (Chinese living abroad), e.g. Q-Cubed (USA), PhoenixCager (not seen in a long time, from Singapore), etc.

edit: clarification re: email, forgot "Family Ties" name

[mindseye]

Here's that photo of Clinton, just for you, Ned (teehee! ) ...

[Nubclear]

"State-run sexshops" in China?!

Anyway I've heard rumours that every Chinese house is required ot have a picture of Mao. Is this true?
Why do you livein China when you can't read Chinese?
What percentage of Chinese people have unrestricted access to foreign news outlets?
Whats the "general chinese sentiment" in regards to...

...Bush
...Americans
...Japan
...North Korea
...Taiwan
...South Korea
...Communism
...It's economy
...India

?

-How many Chinese people speak English?
-How many Chinese people speak Engrish?

[mindseye]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Quote:

You have to PM mindseye, then.

I agree, as mindseye seems to be the only decent source of information on these boards for finding out what is going on in China. He manages to avoid the obvious propagandizing that plagues the posts of certain other posters.

I really try to be objective. My politics are left-of-center, but I really don't like communism. When I moved here I thought that dealing with the government would be the worst thing about living here, but I have since come to understand the situation a lot better. Don't get me wrong, I still don't like the government, but it's not as bad as I feared, and some of the leaders seem remarkably good (within the restrictions of the world they operate in). For instance, I really liked recent Premier Zhu Rongji, and I have a growing high opinion of President Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabao. For one thing, both keep mentioning the d-word (democratic reform) in public speeches, something unimaginable not long ago.

I suspect some here (Dinodoc! ) think I'm some kind of PRC cheerleader. I will openly admit I prefer writing about the positive things I think others aren't aware of, for the simple reasons that (1) the negatives already get pretty good coverage in western press, and (2) my evil twin DaShi handles the bad news stories pretty well.

However, I do try to write about China as honestly as I can, including the many things I don't care for. In other threads I have listed the biggest problems as I see them, including those relating to the forms of oppression that you really do find here.

[DaShi]

A friend of mine's SO just got admitted into the Communist party here. Here first duty was to take notes on what some students said to the Beijing official who came to inspect the school.

[Drake Tungsten]

I will openly admit I prefer writing about the positive things I think others aren't aware of, for the simple reasons that (1) the negatives already get pretty good coverage in western press, and (2) my evil twin DaShi handles the bad news stories pretty well.

I'd have to agree with this. You and DaShi do make a good team.

[mindseye]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
"State-run sexshops" in China?!

Anyway I've heard rumours that every Chinese house is required ot have a picture of Mao. Is this true?
Why do you livein China when you can't read Chinese?
What percentage of Chinese people have unrestricted access to foreign news outlets?
Whats the "general chinese sentiment" in regards to...

...Bush
...Americans
...Japan
...North Korea
...Taiwan
...South Korea
...Communism
...It's economy
...India

?

-How many Chinese people speak Engrish?

I'm out of posting time and can't answer all that tonite, so I'll just answer these:

Anyway I've heard rumours that every Chinese house is required ot have a picture of Mao. Is this true?

Not for at least twenty years now. You still see them in some small stores or neighborhood restaurants. I don't think I've ever seen one in anyone's home. Mao worship is long-gone, even the gov't says that 20% of his actions were "mistaken". I wouldn't be surprised if you saw his picture more often in rural towns I haven't been to many of these yet.

Why do you live in China when you can't read Chinese?

Well, speaking Chinese is much easier than reading it. I can now speak something like conversational Chinese, but my reading/writing vocabulary is much smaller, certainly far smaller than that requried to read a newspaper. However, many foreigners living here speak little or no Chinese, you can get by without too many problems.

What percentage of Chinese people have unrestricted access to foreign news outlets?

See what I wrote about the internet and satellite tv above. I can't guess at the perentage, but most of the urban population can at least use the internet through net bars or home pcs (which are owned by about 25% of the urban population, perhaps closer to 50% here in Shanghai).

By the way, it's important to keep in mind that most international news is in languages other than Chinese, which I think is effectively a greater restriction than any government censorship. As for Chinese-language news, I would be shocked if any on-line Taiwanese newspapers are accessible, I have never checked because I cannot read them.

"English" changed to "languages other than Chinese" to correct glaring cultural-centrism

[mindseye]

Originally posted by DaShi
A friend of mine's SO just got admitted into the Communist party here. Here first duty was to take notes on what some students said to the Beijing official who came to inspect the school.

I get the feeling that kind of thing is not common here in "Hu-town" (Shanghai). Please write more about life where you are. Your experiences are different from mine, you have first-hand experience living in a much smaller city.

Gotta go, g'nite!

[DaShi]

Actually, I like reading mindeyes' positive comments. Many of them ring true for me, and the others I can't comment on as I've not experienced them.

Also, I work for a rather strict college that wants to acheive university status. Last week, was "Impress Beijing Week," which meant that everyone does things they don't normally do. Students have to get up earlier, teachers have to wear their badges, and the administrator's assistants have to stay on campus all week. It was kind of cute. They placed these posters around campus a week before telling the students how they should behave during the inspection week. They said things like, "Arrive at class early," "No cheating," "No sleeping in class," and "No public displays of affection." The amusing part is that these posters seem to imply that it is ok to do these things again after the inspection.

My students would say that they have free speech when they are trying to impress China's greatness on me. Otherwise, they comment on how disappointed they are with their school and there is nothing they can do about it. For my writing class, I have given them an unintentional outlet. Their main essay for this semester is about their school. I asked them to simply choose a topic about their school and write their essay on it. The majority of papers contain lists of grievances and despondence over the inability to do anything to change it. The main source of their complaints seems to arise from the school's spending habits, or lack of. They have few options and those that they have are not good. After reading a few papers about their inadequate Chinese teachers, I found myself working a little harder to give them a better education, as if I could make up for it. They certainly grabbed my sympathy.

[DaShi]

Oh, and I did post a positive thread about China. But no one cared.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by DaShi
Oh, and I did post a positive thread about China. But no one cared.

Sure we care, and we really appreciate both of your descriptions of the life in to-day China.

[Ned]

Mindseye and DaShi, Thanks for your posts. Many thanks. I am sure the whole of Apolyton has read them with fascination.

Free speech may be the most critical of human rights. Once a people have it an exercise it, all other rights will follow.

It appears that the Chinese people have free speech in languages other than Chinese. But this may be sufficient for the time being as the people who learn about events from outside China apparently can communicate to others inside China through e-mail and the phone.

Just one more question. Does the open issue of Taiwan prevent the Communist party from allowing other political parties in China? I suspect they fear that if they allowed such political parties to be formed, Tawianese parties would be quickly established, would flourish and soon Taiwan would be running things in China.

[DanS]

I have to say that even with Mindseye's rather even-handed emphasis of the positive (and which I enjoy reading), I'm still pretty disappointed on the whole with the state of China's freedom of speech and association.

Why does China continue to supress Falun Dafa, for instance? This is just one indication that it's tough for the communists to change their stripes and they continue to waste time on stupid sh!t. As a Roman Catholic, I couldn't go to a Roman Catholic church in China (the real ones, not the fake ones), no matter that I'm a foreigner. What a state of idiocy (that's why I enjoy reading DaShi's posts too). Even the communists gain nothing by suppression.

I remember the saying that you know you're in a police state when there are no cops on the street. Don't know if I agree, but appearances are sometimes deceptive. Sometimes I think that the Chinese only show the building fronts with respect to human rights, like on a Hollywood movie lot. Even if rights were at western standards in the cities -- which they aren't -- then that would leave out the countryside, where most Chinese live.

[Drake Tungsten]

Oh, and I did post a positive thread about China. But no one cared.

I did.

What was it about again?