AU mod: The ToE - Hoover beeline

[Stuie]

YES to "the removal of the Electronics requirement from Motorized Transportation."

Obviously the overpowered ToE still needs to be addressed. In the absence of any better ideas, I'm still in favor of swapping it with Longevity.

[lockstep]

YES to the Electronics / Mot. Transport change.

Let's leave the ToE alone for now.

[Theseus]

sabrewold, we've messed about with tech tree stuff since the beginning, although I admit this is probably the biggest change.

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Theseus
sabrewold, we've messed about with tech tree stuff since the beginning, although I admit this is probably the biggest change.

iirc, these "messings" were just stuff to change the AI emphasis slightly - like giving many later age techs "allows communication trade", changing research prices (map making +4, maths -4) or making stuff like printing press mandatory etc.

those were all minor and medium changes. the TREE structure itself wasn't changed. that would be a major change.

i really would prefer to see other - less drastic - solutions. at least something were the mod comes on it's own and not with a new industrial age tech background file.

[ducki]

What if ToE had upkeep? Like 5 or 10gpt, maybe more?
Make the free tech cost cold hard cash.

And if that's done, would it be possible to expire the upkeep at a later date/tech? I know we know how much tech costs, surely we could figure out a way to make this actually balance out the books. Maybe it adds unhappies due to the rapidly changing times(quick tech advances) - the old fogeys just get cranky about all these new-fangled inventions and ideas. Say, add 2 unhappies per city or something.

Make it a serious tradeoff without having to jiggle the tech-tree around. Serious enough that the player might consider letting the AI build this one sometimes.

[alexman]

So I can save a leader, build it in a crappy city to get the free techs, and then raze it to avoid the consequences?

[ducki]

That's what house rules are for, no?

[lockstep]

You could also gift the ToE city to the AI.

Seriously, I don't like the idea of balancing a specific wonder by adding a disadvantage.

[ducki]

Yeah. Just trying to think of ways to make it not a forgone conclusion.
Are there any research/science related buildings that come at about the same time that we could require 5 of as a pre-req? I guess that wouldn't really help the AI, would it? Argh.

[ducki]

Originally posted by alexman
The Industrial Age is different because you need both branches to get the era's warmongering tool (Tanks). So even if you are planning a Tank blitz, you don't lose anything by taking the lower 'builder' branch first.

I would really like it if we removed Motorized Transportation's Electronics requirement.

I'm sorry to dredge this up again, but I was just looking at the custom graphic and I don't see how the solution actually solves the problem.

You want to break the Warmonger path away from the 'builder' path, but this only removes 4 techs out of the original 14 techs required to get to tanks.
2 of those 4 are free if you take the lower path and nab the ToE, so now you're only 2 techs ahead. Now if you factor in the effects of Hoover(including saving 3 gpt/per city in addition to the production boost) and that 2-tech advantage towards a tank rush looks pretty slim. Finally, if you consider the trade value of Scientific Method, Atomic Theory, and Electronics and I'm not completely sure that the Warmonger path actually has _any_ advantage where all other things are equal(meaning that the warmonger path-chooser has the required water and a high-shield city for producing ToE and Hoover).

You could argue that by removing AtomicTheory and Electronics from the path to Motorized Transport that the player could build ToE and take the other path, except that means researching a tech off of the warmonger path and building a wonder to gain back 2 techs of the advantage(but having researched one, you only gain 1), putting you up by 3 techs and missing out on a wonder that can save a lot of money and help you crank out tanks like nobody's business much sooner/faster than building power plants individually.

In my experience, I have rarely found it worthwhile to attack an opponent who has Infantry, with Tanks. Even if you beeline to Tanks, Modern Armor is only 5 techs away (Flight, Radio, Ecology, Rocketry, S.Fibers).

I think this further weakens this change. That's 5 more research cycles in which the Hoover-builder can catch up the 2 or maybe 3 techs that he is "behind", giving at the very least 20 turns for the benefits of a more productive empire (free power plants everywhere) to make up a 2-3 tech(maximum) deficit.

Just thoughts that hit while looking at the custom industrial era tech-tree graphic. I just really don't understand how this change accomplishes the goal.
I wonder how many folks will opt for Tanks over Hoover in The Power Of Seafaring(assuming we're not on a teeny tiny island).

[Myrddin]

Working through a 1.01 mod game, the changes to cavalry make it far harder to roll over an opponent by getting to Military Tradition first - you will take high losses in taking Musketmen defended cities

However it makes Replacable Parts a key military tech as it gives you

Infantry - defence 10
Guerrillas - attack 8
Artillery

vs Best attacker 5, best defender 6

So instead of a cavalry blitz, you have a SOD rolling over the cities 1 by 1, almost immune to counterattack. It is slower but inevitable; at least a cavalry blitz could suffer from counter-attacks

Replacable parts is on the Builder path, and so can be easily incorporated into the ToE beeline

Should Guerillas (and possibly artillery - which needs toning down anyway) be moved to the upper path on the tree?

[jshelr]

I don't want to be overly tiresome, but, hey, why change my pesonality now?

We were down three or four techs to the Dutch in the ToE race in the AU game, lacking physics and metal when our banks finished and gold per turn shot way up. At that point, we traded using the lux that wars had brought in over time.

The upshot is that we now have medicine and nobody has any other techs on the way to ToE. The Dutch are wandering around in the Nationalism tech swamp, probably researching facism and commie.

As far as I'm concerned, the game is broken at this juncture. Something has to be done to turn ToE back into a race. After all, my Byz civ is winning the race and we've not researched any tech to completion since philosophy

We will now opportunistically buy techs until we can sprint to scientific method, adding a few libraries in core cities to make the sprint faster. The only trick is to start the prebuild at the right time.

[ducki]

Has ToE ever been a race if the human is at or near parity?
Maybe it's my usual level of play, but I never saw this item as a return to good AI behavior. I saw it as us trying to fix a fundamental flaw.

One thing I don't think we can ever tweak to be "right" is once an AI has Nationalism, I doubt we can do anything to make them not go after Government-enabling techs.

I do think we can make the first rank a bit more "random", though.

And my first question is serious, not rhetorical - I just don't ever recall the AI giving me a run for my money on ToE if I have parity. It's nearly never a race for me, though I do agree it is broken.

[jshelr]

I wrote, "Something has to be done to turn ToE back into a race."

I agree with ducki that the ToE race idea is a non-starter. On reflection, what bothers me is that winning the non-race is both easy and game-over. It's the game-over part that is a bummer.

[ducki]

Ok. I was afraid maybe I'd missed something.

As far as turning it into a non-game-over situation, alexman mentioned on one of the AU:501 DARs moving it to the Modern Age.

Since we're considering moving Longevity to the Industrial, I think it would be ... sensible to just let the two "problem" wonders trade places. 2 freebies in the Modern Age is, I doubt, nearly as overpowering as in the Industrial, especially since it would no longer guarantee Hoover's.

Just a thought. Maybe it'll spark someone else's imagination and we'll find something less.... extreme.


Another idea I had was to severely reduce the cost of Nationalism, Communism, and Fascism, transferring the cost to Scientific Method - The AI is likely going to go for those top techs(and with a human cavalry running about, it's probably not such a bad idea to get rifles), and if we can't deter them, why not make it just take a lot less time? If the human still wants ToE and Hoover, they risk letting the AI get a sizeable branch lead, and with the longer research time, maybe it would be more difficult to time a prebuild, giving the AI a better chance.

Or maybe not.

I, like jshelr, do wish that the race for ToE-Hoover's was actually exciting/dramatic, or at least not "the best" strategy.

[smellymummy]

maybe this is a little late, although the motorized transport not requiring electronics is a great idea!

the longevity in early industrial age i think is wrong. won't that make way too much pop for just one civ? well since it was played/tested in previous mods then perhaps its fine.

as for the TOE, this needs big change. I've only played a few C3C games where the AI actually beats me to the TOE and then beats me to hoover.

unless the AI has a huge tech lead (eg, it already knows communism/facism/etc) it will go for the TOE. All I can think of for that is to nudge the AI towards the medecine branch after nationalism. Cheaper costs or flavors? Not sure how exactly except through lots of play testing ....

Otherwise, the 2 free techs of TOE should get axed, and replaced with a 50% research bonus in the city.

[Buckets]

This may be late as well, but what the hey...
Remove the prerequisite of Electricity form Scientific Method and add it to Atomic Theory.
This has the effect of allwoing SM earlier, but also does not guarantee that AT and Electronics will be available upon completion of TOE. In other words, you can 'hurry' to TOE but you'll give up an immediate route to Hoover.

[JimiD]

I have read all the above, and still cannot help thinking that it is not that ToE is too powerful, but that the Hoover Dam is.

I sugest Hoovers be omitted, as it is disproportionally powerful, and, at present only really used to its full advantage by human players. I hope I have clearly explained below why. This may be too much for an AU mod, but these are my thoughts on this problem.

A hydro plant in every city on the continent! - given the extents people go to in MM to save a single sheild, this seems to give too great a bonus. I could go on with the hyperbole on the advantages here, but assume the implications are clear.

Other wonders, since Civ2, have been toned down so that now they are no longer 'must haves' (Adam Smiths, Leonardos etc). They remain beneficial, but are no longer game deciders.

The reason that the industrial corridor is a 'no brainer' and a problem, is that we humans recognise this, but the current AI does not. It wants riflemen (short term solution to prevent rampaging Cavalry), over the long term benefit of a massive increase in productivity. Also then needs governments techs to offset less effective MM, again, against investing in Hoover.

Essentially, at this stage we have a different strategy to the AI, and one that remains constant in all but the most extreme circumstances. The AI can be designed to play well through the previous eras, but if we are not too far from contention, we can still turn the game round, and not with good strategy but a 'no brainer'.

If the AI is reconfigured to beeline for ToE and Hoovers as we do, then we still have a problem:

The first civ to the Industrial era (tech leader) beelines ToE and Hoover, gets a further two tech lead (and tech trading advantage), AND a massive production boost.

Result - the current leader at the start of the Ind era gets a massive boost further ahead of their competitors.


Omission of a GW may be too much for an AU mod, but at present there is a reduction of stategy (choice) at the start of the Ind era - go down this route at all costs!

The loss of a GW, while to be mourned, is only the loss of a bonus part of a game, not a fundamental, and could potentially be toned down and kept.

ToE is remains intesting, as it is a required tech, so will be researched (traded) evetually, and provides two additional techs for the sheld investment (good trading potential). It provides an alternative for the builder / peaceful / physically isolated, and the potential to 'catch up' if behind in research.

I hope I have not left this topic for too long gathering my thoughts to get others opinions on this.

Too extreme a solution or just plain wrong?

[nbarclay]

The power of Hoover is mitigated at least somewhat by the fact that core cities have to either build a coal plant anyhow (thereby losing much of the wonder's advantage in those cities) or do without a power plant until the wonder is completed. Cities that don't suffer that delay tend to be ones with lower production, either as a result of having few land tiles to work or as a result of as a result of corruption, and so get less benefit from that wonder than core cities can. It's still a very powerful wonder for a civ with enough cities on a continent to get good advantage from it, but not quite as overwhelming as it appears at first glance.

Of course the situation changes dramatically on a big continent under a communist government. With communism, what started as highly corrupt cities conquered from distant AIs can gain the potential to become a civ's most productive cities due to the looser city spacing AIs generally use. Under those circumstances, the power of Hoover can indeed be a bit absurd.

Nathan

[ducki]

Good points Nathan, but I think perhaps the Pirate makes points we haven't fully explored - that the free techs are not the overpowering problem with the ToE-Hoover beeling, but that the head start on Hoover's itself is the problem.

In a way we tinkered with the idea by allowing for a separate military beeline in addition to the Hoover one by splitting the tech tree a bit, but it might be worthwhile to pursue this in debate.

Two free techs, IMO, is plenty of reward for ToE, perhaps too much(one would be more in line) but tacking on the near lock that it gives a player for Hoover is getting two wonders for the price of one, plus huge tech-brokering leverage.

So, what if Hoovers reduced waste(corruption) instead? Or was a small wonder instead of a large? Then all civs could get a nice production booster in time for tanks and spaceship parts(assuming they have fresh water). Or acted as an SGL-induced Science Age trigger? Or acted as another FP? All of these would still yield similar results as the original, but in a toned down fashion(except for the Science Age thing, which might actually be a better replacement effect for ToE.)I think I saw the science age thing in the editor as an effect, could be wrong, though.

If could somehow decouple ToE from Hoover's, I think that would go a long way to fixing the issue, more than giving the human another tech path to choose from as we've done so far.

In AU501, I still went straight for Hoover's even with the small "continent" because a)I didn't want the AI to get it and b)tying up one city to build Hydro plants for all cities allowed me to keep the other cities on different builds instead of needing to build a a plant instead of troops/improvements. The game would have to be in a fairly "odd" state for me to not choose Hoover's.

[MqsTout]

Perhaps, should the decision be made to cut the power of the Hoover, the power of the hydro plant could be altered:

Coal plant, 2 production, 2 pollution, req: coal (default)
Hydo plant, 1 production, 0 pollution req: river (default is 2, 0)
Solar plant, 2 production, 0 pollution, req: none (default)
Nuclear plant, 4 production, 0 pollution, req: water and can melt down (default)

If these were to be tinkered with, I'd say let Coal be 3,2; Nuclear 3, 0 or 4,1. The only problem with this is that, if the Hoover wonder is lost, noone would ever build a hydro plant in lieu of a solar plant. Perhaps an offset of -1/-2 pollution (should it actually work; it is settable in the editor) would make it choosable, and the pollution effects probably wouldn't be a 'game breaker' like the 50% production is now.

Though, 25% instead of 50% production bonus on the hydro might not be enough of a change to fix the Hoover (always the most broken wonder in the Civ series, as I've played).

How would this fit with the AU mod? It REALLY generates choice! Which power plant to build is no longer a default option. Even if you build the Hoover, you might want to build a better (in terms of production) power plant. I doubt the AI would have a problem with it, while at the same time an only 25% instead of 50% production bonus would limit the human player's edge it usually gets on the AI. And, it doesn't seem (to me) to be all that big of a change.

(Oh yeah, I'm still in favor of removing Electronics as a requirement for MT.)

[nbarclay]

Even the player who gets Hoover may want to build hydro plants on another continent, especially under Communism. I'm not fond of the idea of weakening hydro plants so that the only pollution-free power plant before the modern era is less valuable.

With the standard design, the choice of whether to go ahead and build a coal plant, wait until the technology is available to build a hydro plant, or possibly even build a coal plant and later replace it with a hydro plant is already an interesting one. I think weakening hydro plants would push in the direction of players' always favoring coal plants over them when Hoover is not in effect.

There might be another twist we could use, though, assuming the editor would cooperate. If we could define a new, less powerful power plant type that is usable (or at least useful) only as the free result of Hoover, that would let us weaken the free power plants without altering genuine hydro plants. Ideally, we could keep the new plant from showing up as something players could build separately at all.

That approach would, for better or for worse, largely take away the question, "Do I go ahead and build coal plants or wait for Hoover to provide free hydro plants?" In any situation where a player is even considering building a coal plant before Hoover, devaluing the power plants from Hoover would make building the coal plant a no-brainer. In some games (AU 501 for example), especially on archipelago maps, building Hoover on the home continent would become pretty much useless because at least most of the the cities would already have a more productive power plant. (Note that even hydro plants, available with the same tech as Hoover, could generally be built more quickly than Hoover can be built.) But the wonder would still have significant value on most maps.

Another twist would be if we could give Hoover a second effect of reducing pollution. (I don't know the editor and game mechanics enough to know how practical that would be.) Assuming it's practical, that would make the wonder at least a little bit useful even on a continent where all the cities already have conventional power plants. And the reduction in micromanagement for pollution clean-up would be a nice bonus (or at least would offset the pollution penalty of being stuck with coal plants instead of having them replaced with free, non-polluting hydro plants).

Nathan

[Vlad Antlerkov]

Something about the new beta patch:

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/...eid=1077832512

Originally posted byT-hawk

v1.18 Changes:
* Game Rule: Enable Scientific Leaders (ON by default)
* Railroads will always appear under captured cities if you have Steam Power.
* Histograph keeps tracking defeated Civs
* Electronics requirement removed from Motorized Transportation
* Radio Tech removed
* Advanced Flight now requires Electronics
* Radar Towers require Advanced Flight

We continue to exert an influence on Firaxis again!

[pvzh]

Making Hoover a small wonder would be a logical thing to do, no advantage to single country. After all, country-wide power-line networks exist not in just one country: USA and USSR had them for sure. At least in USSR all power plant were synchronized to be run int the same circuit and electricity could be transfered wherever it was needed.

A nasty thing thing would be to make ToE small wonder. Every AI will be able to build it and at least either get ahead or undercut human cash flow from tech sales. A very very promising thing. Very in line with alexman's evil way of thinking.

Side effect that industrial age will be very fast. Especially fast with altered research priorities when AI's will take different tech's.

Edit: What about removing requirements of 5 hospitals from Battlefield Medicine and placing it under Medicine (or just place it there with a requirement).[list=a][*]it will encourage it to research it[*]it will benefit AI more because it will build it and let AI units heal in enemy territory (AI is horrid tactician)[/list=a]

[nbarclay]

The idea of Great Wonders that provide interesting and unique powers is rooted in adding flavor to the game, not in realism. But from a realism perspective, the wonder itself can be viewed as an outward manifestation of a deeper national priority.

For example, it is not the Great Lighthouse itself that provides ships with an advantage in movement. After all, the curvature of the earth makes it theoretically impossible for a lighthouse to illuminate lands hundreds of miles away no matter how great it is. Rather, the Lighthouse is an outward manifsetation that the civ that built it has dedicated itself to improving its seafaring skills beyond those of any other nation. Similarly, the building of the Hoover Dam wonder is a manifestation of a nation's unmatched dedication to and skill in improving its productivity.

The game would be more even if all of the great wonders were transformed into small ones that every civ could build. But it would also lose a lot of its flavor. Since we moved Longevity into the industrial era, I wouldn't be particularly opposed to transforming Hoover into a small wonder as a compensation to keep the number of great wonders in the era the same as in the stock game, but it's not something I particularly favor either. Making ToE a small wonder instead of a great one would change the entire character and pace of the tech race too much, and I'd rather eliminate the wonder entirely if we want to keep it from benefitting one civ more than the others.

Nathan

[ducki]

That was a wonderful illustration of the source of the effects of wonders, Nathan. Seriously.

I don't think the imbalance stems from the effect of either one of these two wonders, but rather from their (warning, marketing buzzword) synergy.

Initially, we removed a pre-req tech that had strengthened the tie between ToE and Hoover, and that seems to say to me that the strength of the production boost combined with the "Advance to Go, Collect $200" power of ToE is, indeed, one-sidedly gamebreaking.

I also dislike the idea of weakening the Hydro plant although it would give some incentive to "upgrade" to Solar in the modern era.

We're also in agreement that ToE is, and should be, a Great Wonder. It is a Scientific Great Wonder, and looking the editor, there's a fair amount we could give to ToE while removing the Free Ticket to Go nature of it.
Possibilities:
-Gains in Every City: Library (in keeping with both Scientific and boosting research)
-Gains in Every City on Continent: University
-Doubles Research Output
-Gain Any Advances Owned by 2 Civs

As for Hoover's, I think making this one less obvious would be good. Maybe require Democracy as the Government?

I dunno. We need to do a little bit more to make the synergy of these two less, well, synergistic.

[nbarclay]

Under the default rules, coal plants are the earliest plants available, hydro plants give a chance for something that doesn't pollute a bit later but only for cities with rivers, and solar plants give all cities a non-polluting option even later still but at a relatively high price for non-agricultural civs. Nuclear plants work even better in terms of both production and pollution for cities with access to fresh water, but only as long as they don't suffer a meltdown. Thus, all four types of power plants have a useful niche in spite of the fact that a city can only have one type of power plant in operation at a time. I view that balance as very nice as it is and don't want to tamper with it.

[ducki]

Thanks for the rundown - I've never really thought about the plants that much, mostly I think because I really want to hit the ToE-Hoover jackpot every time. Failing that, I want Hydro plants in any town that can get them asap, failing that, Solar(a bit late for this, eh?), failing THAT, coal. I've never felt like tempting the gods and playing with nuclear("It's pronounced nuk-yuh-ler") power.

Like I said, though, I also dislike the idea of weakening the Hydro plant although it would give some incentive to "upgrade" to Solar in the modern era.

The I-also-dislike part of that was the important bit, although I was less clear about it than I should have been. I think it far more important to find ways to break the bond between ToE and Hoover's(I think we made a good first step), even if it means ToE gets something other than 2 free techs. Best, IMO, would be a SGL-style Science Age, but I was wrong, I don't see that in the editor tonight(maybe tomorrow ) but I do see the city-specific research boost and the option of putting libraries/unis in all cities/all continental cities.

[Aqualung71]

Can we make the AI more likely to go down the Scientific Method branch by tweaking the flavours somehow? This may help it get to ToE and then Hoovers more quickly.

Alternatively, what about going back to the old Civ2 idea of a 50% shield penalty for switching production? I know this would be immensely unpopular, but it would severely limit the effectiveness of pre-builds....which after all, are a human-only toy.

[nbarclay]

The only time prebuilds pose a really serious game balance problem is with wonder races. Solving that problem would require only a few lines of code to the effect that if the thing the player changes production to is a great wonder and the thing the player changes production from is not a great wonder, the city's shields are reset to zero (or cut in half if the preference is to weaken prebuilds without eliminating them entirely). Of course an "Are you sure?" dialog box would need to be displayed to make sure the player really wants to give up all the saved shields to switch. That way players could keep Civ 3's normal flexibility regarding changing one's mind about what to build but could not take advantage of anything but other great wonders as prebuilds to win wonder races.

Regarding having AIs emphasize Scientific Method more, pushing hard makes sense if and only if a player has a good chance of winning the race to ToE. Otherwise, other techs are more valuable. Since most of the AIs will not be the one that wins the race to ToE, I seriously doubt that making Scientific Method more attractive to them would do more good than harm unless someone can find a way to make the AIs smart about when they push hard for Scientific Method and when they don't.