AU mod: The ToE - Hoover beeline

[ducki]

The analysis, however, assumes a certain percentage value for the virtual city improvement. We should be able to modify it to suit our needs.

Instead of limiting our expiration based on assuming free Labs or Universities or even Libraries, why not find the best position in the tree for expiration and then tailor the improvement so that getting there provides the approximate benefit we're shooting for? Can we not, for example, have our virtual labs proved a 10% science increase or 15% instead of being locked with 50%? Doing so allows us more flexibility to make it interesting and strategic instead of trying to shoehorn it into the existing structure. If it's not possible to tailor the new city improvement this way, then, well, bugger.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by alexman


Why is avoiding one certain industrial age tech better than avoiding a modern age tech? Expire the Wonder with Motorized transportation and the ToE player will always go for Flight before Tanks. Expire it with Flight and he will always go for Tanks before planes. 'Always' is a bad thing for this mod.

My original hope was that we could target a tech that's normally not researched until very late in the industrial era so any deliberate deviations to avoid making the wonder obsolete would be significantly smaller than what could happen in the modern era - especially if only one modern tech made the wonder obsolete. If one modern tech made the wonder obsolete, players could research seven or more extra space race techs (depending on which tech) by delaying discovery of the tech that makes it obsolete. With Computers, it would be eight, includng the techs needed for Modern Armor. Rigging things so both Computers and Rocketry make it obsolete reduces that to four, which is still a bit high.

But with Radio removed and Advanced Flight still optional, I doubt that we could do much better in the industrial era, and the impact on gameplay would be likely to be even more serious. Expiring it with Flight would hurt AIs if they happen to get the wonder because they tend to prioritize that tech, while expiring it with Motorized Transportation or Electronics would do nasty things in terms of human players' choice of whether to prioritize Tanks or Hoover. Further, detours of as long as three or even four techs in order to avoid rendering the wonder obsolete would still be at least theoreticlly possible.

I'm starting to think the Computers/Rocketry combination might be the least undesirable option. Another possibility would be Computers/Ecology, which would tend to undercut players looking for a quick MA blitz a bit more but give players pursuing the space race a bigger advantage. However, the advantage players get in the space race from being able to research a couple extra techs before ToE becomes obsolete would be smaller than it might seem at first glance becaue getting research labs online earlier would help later techs almost as much as having ToE expire earlier would hurt earlier techs. Also, waiting so long to get MechInfs and MAs (complicated by the fact that infantry upgrade to MechInfs rather than to TOW Infantry) would make fending off a foreign attack a bit more difficult if one comes.

Computers/Fission (to make the U.N. an issue) would be interesting in close games, but if a player has enough of a tech lead to make it safe not to make Fission a high priority, it would allow players to get MAs and research up to five space race techs before the wonder becomes obsolete. Being able beeline full speed ahead to MAs is a warmonger's dream.

[nbarclay]

I just thought of another angle that makes the idea of having ToE expire in the modern era less of a problem. Over the course of the space race, the real advantage of using ToE but getting research labs later compared with targeting Computers first and pushing research lab construction hard would be relatively small. Either way, sometime in the space race, the player will have to go through a period of relatively slow research while building labs. Thus, even though it might look at first glance like allowing the wonder to continue operating a few techs into the modern era would dramatically increase its power, the real impact would be a good bit smaller.

With that in mind, I'm inclined to shift my support in favor of either a Computers/Rocketry or a Computers/Ecology expiration.

Edit: One other point: delaying construction of labs to keep ToE useful longer would mean delaying the cultural advantages labs bring. Thus, the research advantage of using ToE longer would be offset to a certain degree by a cultural disadvantage.

[alexman]

OK then, under consideration:

Yes/No: Change the ToE so that it gives +50% science in every city until Computers/Rocketry (whichever comes first).

Unless someone feels strongly about including other proposals for consideration, voting on this one will start in a week.

[Theseus]

I don;t know what happened... I thought I posted a thought on this last night just before bed, but I was pretty wiped so maybe not.

While I think the discussion leading up to and about this concept has been great, I am highly AGAINST taking away the 2 tech benefit of the ToE.

It's funny, but, with the exception of the GLib, game-breaking *events* never really came up in the Seven Pillars discussions, or in other similar metagame discussions.

I think however that, in general, they are good. Whether it's allowing the player or AI civs to catch up, or allowing for the emergence of a KAI, they are, in fact, crucial.

Resource disparity. The GLight. The GLib. The Industrial Corridor.

And yes, I realize that this 'catch up' or 'break away' opportunities also provide for the flaw trying to be addressed: that better players will take advantage of same to lock up a game.

Well, I say, keep'em, including 2 techs from the ToE!

Let's just nerf that one a bit, like we did to Philosophy, not change it so drastically.

Again, great ideas and a great discussion, but let's be conservative.

[nbarclay]

Theseus, if you can come up with ideas to "nerf" ToE a bit without a major change in its nature and within the scope of what the editor makes possible, I'm sure we'd all be interested to hear it. So far, we haven't had much luck coming up with ideas.

I can see how human players can use ToE to catch up under certain circumstances by giving it a higher priority than AIs tend to and probably using a prebuild. But it seems like cases where competent players would allow an AI to use ToE to catch up would be so rare as to be almost nonexistent.

[ducki]

What if ToE required some resource within the city radius? That would still allow it to be a game breaker like Theseus describes while not giving the human a lock on it - if it ends up being in buildable only in a rather corrupt area of your empire, that's gonna be one helluva prebuild.

I think this would also give the AI a slightly better chance at it for the same reason - not in every game, but occasionally enough that it's not a case of "I always build ToE then Hoover".

I know not everyone likes required resources, but I think making the ToE a bit more like the Ironworks in frequency might help.

I've got my asbestos keyboard hooked up, so fire away.

[alexman]

I hope asbestos can protect you from the argument given to weaken the SoZ (among other things): any game breaker based on luck is not desirable.

[ducki]

SoZ was actually the reason I mentioned asbestos.

[Krill]

Change the ToE so that it gives +50% science in every city until Computers/Rocketry (whichever comes first).

Would'nt it be possible for this to make ToE more powerful? I know that it is possible to sell the techs you get now straight away, for more gpt, but isn't it possible to research 25~30% faster, over more than 20 techs?
The tech lead could be made so large that the problem gets even worse.
Here is my idea : move ToE to NATIONALISM.

Advantages: the AI already loves this tech, so we have the choice to research/trade for it, and it would give the AI Communism and Fascism alot quicker. Hoovers would not be so easily attainable, because you have to research every tech to Electronics.

[Krill]

And I just had another thought: If you use a prebuild to get it the turn/s right after you researched Nationalism, the only techs you can get are Steam/industry or electricity that are worth anything

[nbarclay]

While I think Krill's concerns reflect a somewhat exaggerated estimate of the revised wonder's power (at least in terms of what is at all realistic), they got me thinking about exactly what would be possible if a player would truly beeline to ToE. Under those circumstances, especially for players with a big tech lead who use a prebuild, the revised ToE could indeed be more powerful than the standard version. In many cases, the extra power would manifest itself in extra gold for rush building rather than in extra tech (since the player could have done a lot of four-turn research anyhow), but it would be there. And since four-turn industrial research is harder in C3C than in PtW, the advantage often would manifest itself in faster research.

On the other hand, that very power comes with enough tradeoffs to make for some interesting strategic choices. Do you delay techs that would increase production (Industrialization and, less directly, Replaceable Parts) to get Scientific Method as early as possible? Do you research Medicine yourself in the hope that faster research after Scientific Method will make up the time it takes, or do you wait in the hope of trading with an AI in an effort to reduce the number of techs you have to research yourself by one? Do you take advantage of the faster research to grab optional techs you wouldn't pursue otherwise, or do you stick to your normal research path? (Note that if ToE causes a shift in priorities, the fact that the new priorities are less intrinsically valuable to the player than the old ones makes the wonder's benefit smaller than raw costs might seem to imply.)

One way to help the situation might be to move ToE from Scientific Method to Atomic Theory. That would force players to give up more opportunities if they beeline to ToE, and would reduce the maximum value of ToE by its share of the cost of the most expensive industrial tech.

On the other hand, are the benefits of changing ToE really big enough to justify a major departure from the stock rules? I don't know.

Nathan

[ducki]

From a game mechanics viewpoint, I like the idea of the ToE wonder at Nationalism.
From a "flavor of stock" viewpoint, it's a hard sell, and likely to trip up an undue number of "new students". Moving Longevity to the industrial is not as radical, even though it's a different age from stock because Longevity was largely seen as pointless, particularly at that stage in the game.

I agree ToE at Nationalism would help the AI and would be willing to try it out there - heck, if we never got any new AUers, it'd be great - but I wonder how confusing it would be. Good "out of the blue" thought, though!

[lockstep]

Originally posted by nbarclay
One way to help the situation might be to move ToE from Scientific Method to Atomic Theory. That would force players to give up more opportunities if they beeline to ToE, and would reduce the maximum value of ToE by its share of the cost of the most expensive industrial tech.

Regarding the 'cost of the most expensive industrial tech' issue, I'll just quote myself from the very first post of this thread. (Note that this was before the removal of Electronics as a prereq for Motorized Transportation, but maybe my original idea is still viable.)

Originally posted by lockstep
Possible Solution

Reduce the cost of Atomic Theory and Electronics by 60 each (A.T. from 200 to 140, El. from 180 to 120). Correspondingly, increase the costs of The Corporation and Replacable Parts by 60 each (C. from 100 to 160, R.P. from 140 to 200). This makes The Corporation (which gives stock exchanges) and Replacable Parts (which gives Infantry, Artillery and double worker speed) the two most expensive techs that a player can get for free with ToE. Now going for A.T./El. because of Hoover means wasting free research.

[nbarclay]

My idea of possibly moving ToE to Atomic Theory was really intended in connection with changing how it works rather than as a standalone change.

What would it do to the AIs if Replaceable Parts were almost one and a half times as expensive as it is now to research or trade for? We've already increased the chances of being able to attack riflemen with tanks by removing Electronics as a prerequisite for Motorized Transportation (and Firaxis seems to be following our lead). Making Replaceable Parts more expensive seems like it could increase that opportunity even further.

[Theseus]

What about knocking it back to just one free tech? It would still represent a critical opportunity for catch-up, but wouldn't provide for locking the game up as we do now.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Theseus
Again, great ideas and a great discussion, but let's be conservative.

I agree 100% with this.

With the constraints of this mod, we may have to leave the Theory of Evolution as it is. We should not be trying to find "a solution at all costs".

Theseus, if you can come up with ideas to "nerf" ToE a bit without a major change in its nature and within the scope of what the editor makes possible, I'm sure we'd all be interested to hear it. So far, we haven't had much luck coming up with ideas.

There's nothing wrong with putting this whole issue on the back burner for now.


Dominae

[Krill]

What about knocking it back to just one free tech? It would still represent a critical opportunity for catch-up, but wouldn't provide for locking the game up as we do now.

Not possible. You can have one free tech for a tech (if that makes sense), or two with a GW.
This was discussed ealier in th thread. 3 (or so) months ago

EDIT: Maybe we should as Dominae says.

[ZargonX]

With the constraints of this mod, we may have to leave the Theory of Evolution as it is. We should not be trying to find "a solution at all costs".

Agreed. Forcing a compromise solution that no one is really happy with is no solution at all.

[Ision]

Gentlemen,

How about a solution to ToE by making it 'STRONGER'. Give ToE a GL effect. Owner gets any advance already known by 2 other CIVs - obsolete with Corporation. Below is my rationale:

If you’re playing catch-up: it works. If you’re playing from far behind, no one can rationally argue with a Wonder that provides you with an instantaneous means of being at tech parity – this is far from being too severely ‘nerfed’. In some cases this new GL type ToE would actually be stronger than the present ToE. Imagine a game where you stumble into Industrial Age without the Middle Age optional techs – the new ToE would provide you with a far greater reward than previously.

If you’re at approximate tech parity (a little less - a little more) it would still provide you with some combination of the typical AI tech choices of Nationalism/Communism/Fascism and at times even Steam Power and Sanitation… this is far from useless (access to: riflemen, police stations, drafting, and alternative Govs, maybe even hospitals and railroads) – at the same time it will not work as a ‘catapult’ to Hoovers, or a game breaking 3 tech lead used to bankrupt the AIs, or a springboard to total tech ‘disparity’. The degree of ToEs value would then be directly tied to the degree of you’re ‘approximate tech parity’ when you nailed the wonder. In this sense the degree of its value is similar to the GL. In the best-case scenario you were slightly behind in tech – and gained Nationalsim/Communsim and 2 or 3 other techs – in the worst-case scenario it provides you with at least 2 free techs. In either case ToE would still be a highly valuable Wonder – while not so valued that you automatically choose to pursue it. The obsolete with ‘Corporation’ concept is to ensure that that ‘boost’ is more incremental in nature and less of the ‘game breaker’ than ToE is at the present. Also, by expiring with Industrialization, a ‘0 –research slider amass huge gold amounts strat’ will not go on deep into the Industrial era and thus over-power the Wonders value. Yes you can still beeline to Hoovers – but you will have to research your way there.

If you’re already the dominant CIV, ToE will allow you 2 different options ‘0 research slider’ or beeline x,y,z without worry. In either case, your dominance will simply become far more pervasive – however, is this not as it should be? This example assumed you were already dominant and just nailed a Great Wonder – in this context, the ‘game breaking’ aspect of ToE should be expected.

Assuming the typical game scenario of ‘approximate tech parity’ during the early Industrial Age, my solution is basically an attempt to have ToE provide 2 to 3 free techs NOT of your choice and that are already known to another CIV – while also ensuring that they are not merely 2 un-researched Middle Age optional techs.

Ision

[Ision]

Okay, let me say it before someone else does –

It is possible for the player, the AI, or both to have already researched up to Corporation prior to a ToE build and therefore gain – nothing. About as possible as my wining the Florida lottery – lol

The exact tech at which ToE should expire may or may not be Corporation – but I think you get the general idea of my post.

Ision

[ducki]

It's interesting and it also doesn't guarantee Hoover's.

[nbarclay]

I routinely research Corporation and beyond before building ToE when I have a significant tech lead because I'm waiting for AIs to research Medicine for me. I think I've even had a game or two where I researched Flight while building ToE.

I see two main gameplay issues with turning ToE into another Great Library. First, expiring it anywhere on the Combustion branch of the tech tree would tend to push players to research Atomic Theory and Electronics before researching the tech that causes the wonder to expire (while expiring it with Atomic Theory or Electronics could lead to extremely long delays in researching those techs). With Education, the tradeoff of having a wonder that gives free techs expire with a technology that provides a major research advantage is an interesting one. But no corresponding tradeoff exists in the industrial era.

And second, Great Library style wonders can, under the right conditions, be a lot more valuable captured than they can possibly be for a player that builds them. Unless the bug/quirk has been fixed, a civ that hasn't researched Education yet can capture the Great Library and get techs considerably beyond Education the next turn before the wonder becomes obsolete. The same phenomenon applied to ToE could catapult a civ from early indstrail all the way into the modern era. Unless that bug/quirk has been fixed, I think providing a way players could instantly catch up in tech that late in the game would be too powerful - and would undermine the importance of keeping up in tech as best possible through the course of the game.

Gameplay issues aside, there is also a major conceptual problem involved. Having the Great Library be a place that accumulates knowledge from throughout the world makes perfect sense, but ToE fits better conceptually as something that helps a civ in original research than as something that brings in techs learned by others.

The more I think about it, the more I think we haven't found a solution yet that has sufficiently clear and significant advantages to be worth changing the game for. Giving a library/university-style effect was an interesting idea, but would be too strong if players make ToE their top priority to be clearly preferable over the standard rules (and too radical a change to adopt in the absence of a clear and significant advantage). I think we should stick to the standard rules for ToE for the next revision of the mod and keep thinking about the issue.

Nathan

[alexman]

Time to vote. We have 48 hours:

Yes/No: Change the ToE so that it gives +50% science in every city until Computers/Rocketry (whichever comes first).

I'll vote later. I'm still thinking about whether the benefit in game play is worth the change.

[lockstep]

NO

I'm still hoping that Firaxis adds a 'yield one tech' option to the editor in a patch. For now, no changes to the ToE.

[alexman]

Another 'No' vote from me.

It's a big flavor change, but the real reason is that I think that the new research priorities for the AI will make it harder for the human to catch up by getting the ToE. I would like to play a few more games to see if that's true or not. I think we have not yet seen evidence of the AI getting the ToE in practice because in AU501 most players were already in the tech lead by the Industrial Age.

It's true that all for tech parity it will be easier for the human to get the ToE than for the AI, but that's life when you're the AI. Next time try to get a bigger head start!

[Dominae]

No. 50% Science in every city?! Sounds like a Modern era Wonder...

[ZargonX]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall reading over at CFC that ToE was being changed in the patch to produce 2 random techs for the builder. Any word on this as being confirmed or not?

[alexman]

I'm pretty sure that's wrong information, at least for 1.20.

[Theseus]

No.