Civ Choice - Discussion

[Beta]

As this is probably the most important thing to decide - I will start a thread to get the discussion going.

I know it depends on the map we are using, but having been through a couple of these now, it seems the map always boils down to s standard continent start. I would choose accordingly.

The best post I have read on this recently comes from Dominae at the MZO game - from a closed forum. I hope he does not mid if I recreate it for discussion purposes. But as with most things civ related - he is pretty much bang on.

So - with all credit and kudos going to Dom, I post thge following:

First, a brief overview of the traits with a PBEM environment in mind:

Agricultural

Very strong. Probably the strongest trait. Many teams know this and we'll just be stepping over each other to pick it. However, depending on how generous the map maker is (if at all), Agricultural civs could get a start with no fresh water access. This severely hurts the trait, since you have expand and/or switch out of Despotism for the trait to work. Not much we can do about this, though.

Seafaring

Another one that is map-dependent. Will the map maker give us realistic crossing points between continents? We have to assume so if we pick this trait. Seafaring civs start with Alphabet, which is super-important now with the new Philosophy rule (it also happens to be my favorite MP starting tech). If we do pick this, we have to be prepared for a diplomacy-intensive game.

Militaristic

Bleh. I like building up a superior economy, not rushing the closest civ and praying. The new rules for Armies is the only thing that makes this slightly attractive, but I would rather not base our entire strategy on that.

Commercial

Pretty strong. A good complement to any of our top choices. Another one that provides Alphabet at the start. The only annoying thing thing is the lack of half-cost improvements.

Scientific

Stronger than before, but still not that great. If we do pick a Scientific civ, however, we have to make sure we're actually going to research in this game, and not just buy stuff from other civs. The possibility of SGLs is too important to ignore, but as with the Militaristic trait, I would not like to put half our eggs in that basket.

Expansionist

Ok. Needs a strong UU to justify its existence, though.

Religious

Top pick for sure. The Culture game is more important in PBEMs than I had previously thought. The ability to switch in and out of Republic will surely be a game-winner.

Industrious

Not a top pick anymore, but definitely nice to have. Just as it should be!

---

So, my ranking of the traits:

Agricultural, Religious
Commercial, Industrious
Seafaring
Expansionist, Scientific
Militaristic

---

Assuming we do not stray away from my tier 1 and tier 2 traits, our choices are:

Celts
Iroquois, Mayans; Egyptians, Indians
French

All of these are fine choices. I would prefer not picking the Mayans, however, because 1) they do not have any half-cost improvement other than Aqueducts and 2) their UU is not very handy against humans, and Barb farming is not always possible. War Elephants are quite strong now, in case you were wondering.

---

Going outside my tier 1 and tier 2 trait picks (but not straying too far down!), the follwing civs are playable based on the power of their UUs:

Dutch
Persians
Sumerians

We'll have to fight over the Dutch. Frankly I'm tired of the Persians. This leaves the Sumerians, which are a very strong civ. Many teams will be afraid of the early GA, which is why Sumeria will be open for us if we choose not to be as squeamish. What Enkidu Warriors grant is a guaranteed position in the Medieval era, where (conveniently enough) the Scientific trait begins to shine (the Agricultural trait is not such a slough mid-game either).

The other civs with strong UUs I've not mentioned either due to personal preference (I've never had good luck with Arabia), or gameplay considerations (Sipahi come too late, Cossacks are not superb against humans, etc.).

---

SO, in conclusion, here are my top three picks:

1. Celts
2. Iroquois
3. Sumerians

All are Agricultural. All have dominant UUs.

The one update to this is that Enkidu warriors do not upgrade as spearmen do - which greatly deflates their value.

Also - I do not feel militaristic should be that lowly rated.

Me personally - I like the Celts. I like the Chinese. Heck - I like lots of civs.

Let the debate begin.

[Hot_Enamel]

I tend to play differently in personal PBEM's but the Apolyton play style seems to focus on Gold accumulation & Population growth.

= Commercial & Agricultural

= Iroquois.

And the UU is powerful enough for the war mongerors to have fun. And even if we dont use them to dominate the age, they still have enough kick in them to take down a weakened unit and start a GA later in the game.

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
I tend to play differently in personal PBEM's but the Apolyton play style seems to focus on Gold accumulation & Population growth.

= Commercial & Agricultural

= Iroquois.

And the UU is powerful enough for the war mongerors to have fun. And even if we dont use them to dominate the age, they still have enough kick in them to take down a weakened unit and start a GA later in the game.

The Iroquois were a hotly contested Civ as the canucks know from the C3C DG at MZO.

I would think we would have to have 3 choices as well.

But I would be happy with Iroquois.

[Tassadar500]

I do like the Iroqouis. And if we get a lucky start we could dominate the Acient Age.

[GhengisFarb™]

I like Scientific simply because having a edge to generate Scientific Leaders due to your speed of science research.

But depending on the map some traits have more advantages. If theres a lot of water and it isn't a hand made map Seafaring is ultra valuable with the delayed contact and map trading.

[Kloreep]

Agri definitely would be nice. I think it, com, and rel are my favorites. So my list:

India
Iroquois
Celts

India lacks Agri, but on the other hand, it might actually be the strongest UU. The bonus HP is nice, and being early UUs, Gallic Swordsmen and Mounted Warriors run the risk of not being buildable in time due to resource scarcity & clumping.

Of course, this is assuming standard map settings. On an archipelago we'd probably want to go with Seafaring.

[Beta]

Originally posted by Kloreep
Agri definitely would be nice. I think it, com, and rel are my favorites. So my list:

India
Iroquois
Celts

India lacks Agri, but on the other hand, it might actually be the strongest UU. The bonus HP is nice, and being early UUs, Gallic Swordsmen and Mounted Warriors run the risk of not being buildable in time due to resource scarcity & clumping.

Of course, this is assuming standard map settings. On an archipelago we'd probably want to go with Seafaring.

Hmmm - India. Interesting idea.

[GhengisFarb™]

But I hate their leaderhead.

[Beta]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
But I hate their leaderhead.

Agreed! We should use the Ghengis leaderhead.

[Donegeal]

You wanna hear something stupid?

I have been playing alot as the Koreans. Their trait combo is excellent (Ind/Com) but their UU has been knocked as useless on many occasions. I, however, believe that the Hawa'cha is not only very useful, but borderline unbalancing. Why? Lethal Land Bombard. Look at both the PTWDG and the ISDG. Stacks of catapults running around making HUGE differences in the game. Now imagine a Lethal bombard stack. Who needs offensive units? Imagine a stack of 15 Hawa'chas covered by 5 Muskets. A stack of 15 knights would be hesitant to attack such a stack. Additionally, we would have to remember that if a civ can't build a unit, it can't capture it. So even if someone did manage to capture the Hawacha's, they still wouldn't be able to use them against us.

Hmmm.... its just a thought.

[GhengisFarb™]

I have a large breasted India Princess leaderhead also.

[Dominae]

Some thoughts here:

The problem with Korea is that you have to get all the way to Metallurgy for your civ choice to make sennse.

Scientific is not so great because tech trading is at its worst in PBEM play. It's not wise to expect a SGL from the ~10 techs you get to research before the Industrial era.

Commercial is really really good in light of the Corruption problems with the release version of C3C. Perhaps this game should wait for the first patch?

With Agricultural the no-brainer trait, and Commercial unusually powerful due this Corruption thing, Iroquois are the default best civ.


Dominae

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by Dominae
Perhaps this game should wait for the first patch?
Dominae

Well the consensus thus far is that we are going to start pacth or no patch. But there has not been an official vote on this however.

We can make a case to wait and I sort of tried to do that but most teams just wanted to set a date and get going.

My guess is based on my MZO experience, it is going to take us longer than 31 Dec 03 to finish all the preliminaries and be able to start.

And with rumors the first patch (that will suppossedly correct corruption issues) will be out around mid January, it maybe a mute point anyway.

But I can bring this up again if the group wishes it.

On a side note, I think Commercial is strong even if corruption is fixed, combine thats with the power of agriculture and you have the perfect IDG Civ, the Iroquois, but that is just MHO.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Dominae
Scientific is not so great because tech trading is at its worst in PBEM play. It's not wise to expect a SGL from the ~10 techs you get to research before the Industrial era.

The reason Scientific is powerful is because you can concentrate on specific tech routes and get way ahead of everyone else on your own. No longer are you regulated to taking 40 turns for your first few techs regardless of your research rate, you research faster.

True, you can't bank on getting SGLs but the mere fact that being a intellectual powerhouse grants you that possibility is a good plus.

[Donegeal]

[Rant]
Dammit! Why on earth does the Hawa'cha come with mettalurgy? Wouldn't it make more sense if it came with gunpowder?
[/Rant]

[Dominae]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
The reason Scientific is powerful is because you can concentrate on specific tech routes and get way ahead of everyone else on your own. No longer are you regulated to taking 40 turns for your first few techs regardless of your research rate, you research faster.

Why do Scientific civs research faster in Conquests?


Dominae

[GhengisFarb™]

Everyone seems to research faster in Conquests, and I don't know why. I haven't had a 40 turn or greater research time in any of the pbems I've played.

Scientifics get a free tech at each age and I think they get reduced cost research improvements.

Seafaring can be a big advantage if there is a good amount of water to accumulate contacts and research quickly through a contact edge but there is no guarantee you will be coastal even with Seafaring (already seen a Seafaring civ get placed in a landlock start with non seafaring civs placed on coastal starts).

Just researching fast isn't the priority, its researching the techs you research BEFORE anyone else researches them. Thats when you have a shot at an SGL. I see taking the science lead and maintaining it as a very powerful strategy with the new rules.

[Rhothaerill]

I definitely agree with the majority that the Iroquois are a very powerful civ choice now (damn Canucks and their coin flip winning ways took it from us in the MZO C3CDG ). The Celts are also a very powerful choice for multiplayer now. I'd definitely rank them 1-2 for our civ choice.

[Togas]

I agree on the Iroquoi, but I don't want us to forget the Dutch.

Starting off with Corraugh (sp?) building allows you to quickly (move 3 thanks to Seaf.) seek out new civs and get contacts. Contacts, trading, and good diplomacy are (in my rather biased view) the keys to successful play.

They start out with Alphabet, giving us a jump towards Philosophy (free tech!)

Seafaring gives bonus commerce.

Agricultural (obviously).

AND ... who doesn't love their 4 defense UU?

--Togas

[Rhothaerill]

In response to Togas, the Iroquois are commercial and start out with alphabet as well for the immediate curraghs and jump on philosophy. The Dutch are certainly a civ to consider, but I think the Iro's are better for the simple reason that the commercial trait is better in the long run than the seafaring trait. With regard to UU, we either have a middle of the ancient age attack unit or an early medieval age defense unit. We'll have to figure out what our general war philosphy will be.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Everyone seems to research faster in Conquests, and I don't know why. I haven't had a 40 turn or greater research time in any of the pbems I've played.

Unless people are using Scientists more than they used to, I see no reason in the game rules to confirm your observation that people are researching faster. In particular, the Scientific trait does not speed up research more than it used to.

(Actually, Agricultural could be the reason why you're seeing a faster tech rate. Sigh.)

Just researching fast isn't the priority, its researching the techs you research BEFORE anyone else researches them. Thats when you have a shot at an SGL. I see taking the science lead and maintaining it as a very powerful strategy with the new rules.

That's exactly why I'm arguing against. In PBEM play there's a lot of tech trading. Therefore, even if you do get a tech lead, you'll not research more than 10 techs first in the entire critical portion of the game (before the Industrial era). At 5% chance to get a SGL, that gives you a 40% chance of seeing at least one (before the Industrial era). Personally those are not the kinds of odds I'm looking for in a trait.

I'm not saying it's a bad choice, I'm saying it's not the best choice. Commecial and Religious both strike me as better options than Scientific.


Dominae

[GhengisFarb™]

But Seafaring gives your Curraghs +1 movement to allow for faster civ contacting.

[Donegeal]

Ok, what about proposing to the other teams an idea similar to my "Create-A-Civ" idea. Instead of using default civs, we use costom civs.

How would you like to play an "Apolyton Civ"?
Traits: ???/???
Starting Techs: ???, ???
Unique Unit: ??????
Color: (I will always push for the second Korea color) ???
Leaderhead: ???

Come on guys. If we are going to play a civ, then lets play a civ we can call our own.

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by donegeal
Ok, what about proposing to the other teams an idea similar to my "Create-A-Civ" idea. Instead of using default civs, we use costom civs.

How would you like to play an "Apolyton Civ"?
Traits: ???/???
Starting Techs: ???, ???
Unique Unit: ??????
Color: (I will always push for the second Korea color) ???
Leaderhead: ???

Come on guys. If we are going to play a civ, then lets play a civ we can call our own.

I dont disagree but I think this will be a tough sell at the UN. I know it WAS a tough sell at the MZO DG and most of the teams there are composed of Apolyton refugees

[Hot_Enamel]

I would rather keep it vanilla C3C as much as possible, so no to "create-a-civ".

From memory, the ISDG had everyone nominate their favorite civs (2-3 per person) then there was a poll on every civ mentioned.

I have already nominated the Iroquois as my first choice.
Given my gold/pop/shield maximisation theme, I think the Maya & the French should also be considered.

Both of their UU's could take down a weakened unit later in the game to start our GA. (But not too much later for the Maya)



And a question for Dominae on why he believes culture is important in PBEMs ? (Per Beta's topped post)
1 turn anarchy ... but why culture ?

[Vlad Antlerkov]

Iroquois. Barring that, anyone else Commercial will do. (Okay, maybe not the English. )

OK... my top 3:

1) Iroquois
2) France
3) India

Color choice: Same as in the PTW ISDG--Spanish Light Blue.
Leader name: Markos
Leader title: Proconsul (keeping in with the government titles in the PTW ISDG, what with the people actually playing the game being Consuls)

[Dominae]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
But Seafaring gives your Curraghs +1 movement to allow for faster civ contacting.

This only reinforces that tech trading speeds up the tech rate, not the Scientific trait. But I assume from your winkey/smiley that you agree.




Dominae

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
And a question for Dominae on why he believes culture is important in PBEMs ? (Per Beta's topped post)
1 turn anarchy ... but why culture ?

A bunch of reasons:

1. Peaceful border expansion. Most players consider border expansion via Culture to be a fair way of grabbing more land, that is, they do not consider it an act of war. The ability to do this cheaply means that you get an edge in the real estate game.

2. Culture flips. By this, I do not mean actively trying to flip cities...that is too random to base a strategy around. Rather, just the threat of having a higher Culture than a neighboring civ, including Temples in your border towns is a serious "threat" in psychological warfare. It is often difficult for a non-Religious neighbor/opponent not to build their own Temples (at considerable cost) in order to prevent disasters.

3. War-time border expansion. An extra couple of tiles in the right direction can often mean a great strategic advantage in war (mainly because you can only use Roads in your own territory). Gathering Storm and Vox know this all too well.

4. Cheap and useful improvement (not a Culture-related advantage, mind you). Against human players, it's often good to keep your cities "on their toes" with respect to military production. Most improvements at the beginning of the game take too much time to complete; you do not want to switch production on an almost-complete 60-Shield Temples when your friend becomes your enemy. 30 Shields, on the other hand, fits into most city queues quite nicely. And the effect is rarely wasted (as opposed to 20-Shield Barracks).

Note that only 1 and 3 make sense in SP.


Dominae

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by Dominae
A bunch of reasons:

1. Peaceful border expansion. Most players consider border expansion via Culture to be a fair way of grabbing more land, that is, they do not consider it an act of war. The ability to do this cheaply means that you get an edge in the real estate game.

True in most PBEM's.
But in Demo games, where you have an entire FAM department, borders and alike are usually negotiated well in advance.

Originally posted by Dominae
2. Culture flips. By this, I do not mean actively trying to flip cities...that is too random to base a strategy around. Rather, just the threat of having a higher Culture than a neighboring civ, including Temples in your border towns is a serious "threat" in psychological warfare. It is often difficult for a non-Religious neighbor/opponent not to build their own Temples (at considerable cost) in order to prevent disasters.

Maybe.It never worried me... I would be more concerned about a fort placed next to a capital during a war.

Originally posted by Dominae
3. War-time border expansion. An extra couple of tiles in the right direction can often mean a great strategic advantage in war (mainly because you can only use Roads in your own territory). Gathering Storm and Vox know this all too well.

Yep, in that situation, it was a boon. Using a temple to stop Vox's immortals from healing was ingenious. But in that situation GS already had the upper hand, and could afford to build a temple. If I have units within my borders, I am usually too busy building Pikes.

Originally posted by Dominae
4. Cheap and useful improvement (not a Culture-related advantage, mind you). Against human players, it's often good to keep your cities "on their toes" with respect to military production. Most improvements at the beginning of the game take too much time to complete; you do not want to switch production on an almost-complete 60-Shield Temples when your friend becomes your enemy. 30 Shields, on the other hand, fits into most city queues quite nicely. And the effect is rarely wasted (as opposed to 20-Shield Barracks).

Dominae

Quite True.....


Thanks for the response Dom.
All valid points.
I was all for Religeous Civs in my first PBEMS. But eventually stopped using them and found other traits far more useful and fun (even militaristic).

You ranked it a lot higher than I would.
1 turn anarchy is certainly great.
Especially when you do only one turn per day.
As a non religeous civ, it could take an entire week of anarchy. Nothing is more disappointing that opening a save after 6 days, and still find anarchy.

[Beta]

Ok - my top 3:

1. Celts
2. Dutch
3. India