Babylon and On - Spoilers and Strategy

[Velociryx]

Here's the thread to discuss the trials and tribulations of getting our small island nation from where it is now to glory....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Spoiler....sorta
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I've not played the game beyond 1570 yet, and am not sure when I'll be able to, but I've already got a plan in my head for how I wanna proceed, and will outline that here.

First, gotta plant some spies, so espionage acquisition will be priority numero uno....spice trades, here we come!

Second, gotta start building a military...will hold off on doing that till I get tanks, and then build like a demon. Until then, I'll be happy to continue to improve my infrastructure, and flesh out that rail network.

Third, *IF* war breaks out between several parties, I'll assess the situation, and throw in my lot with the biggest side, making sure I get my piece of the action.

Fourth, that island to the northeast of us WILL BE mine! No particular reason...'cept that it'd look much better red than multi-colored! Not sure how just yet, cos there are cities from several different nations on it, but sooner or later....

Fifth, I'll let the game decide. Soon as I have an army and a Navy, I'll start refusing demands from people who wanna take my spice without paying for it. If somebody tries to bully me, we'll hit back.

Sixth, if that doesn't work, then I'll resort to global terrorism, and use a ROP-Blitz to take China out in a single turn. That should get their attention.

-=Vel=-

[Aeson]

I decided to try my hand on this map, it's an interesting game for sure. Trading really is the key here, so I kept a log of all the trades up to the time I received Integrated Defense and finally caught up. It took until 1802AD. I'd guess the AI had gotten there 5-10 turns before I did. There was no war at all during this time, just a lot of building up.

-----------------------------

1570AD

F: Refining
B: Incense 17gpt 14g

R: Sanitation, Steel, 4gpt, 22g
B: Oil

A: Combustion, Dyes
B: Incense, 31 gpt

C: Mass Production, Furs
B: Incense, 35gpt 6g

1585AD

I: Flight
B: Incense, 33gpt 6g

1650AD

A: Atomic Theory, 71gpt 512g
B: Oil

F: Ivory
B: 240g

1670AD

F: Electronics
B: Incense 247g

A: Motor Transportation, Dyes
B: Incense 546g

C: Radio, Furs
B: Incense, 49gpt 17g

1675AD

I: Ecology
B: 91gpt

R: Fission, Espionage, 8gpt, ROP
B: Ecology, Iron

1690AD

I: Synthetic Fibers
B: Incense, 95gpt

J: Computers
B: Synthetic Fibers, 11gpt

R: Amphibious Warfare, Communism, 55g
B: Synthetic Fibers

1762AD

F: Stealth
B: Incense, 37gpt 1295g

J: Miniturization
B: Stealth, 8gpt

I: Nuclear Power, 338g
B: Oil

R: Recycling, Space Flight, 8gpt 55g
B: Stealth, Miniturization

C: Genetics, Furs
B: Incense, 124gpt

J: The Laser
B: Incense, Genetics, 53g

A: Dyes
B: 300g

G: Satellites
B: Stealth, 18 gpt

1764AD

I: Robotics
B: Incense, 128gpt

J: Superconductor
B: Robotics, 10gpt

G: Wines, 20gpt 107g, ROP
B: Robotics

1778AD

R: Advanced Flight, Horses, 21g, ROP
B: Genetics

G: 5gpt 47g
B: Advanced Flight

F: nothing
B: Coal (my only one on accident )

1788AD

F: Ivory, Smart Weapons, 15gpt 360g
B: Oil

G: 9gpt 80g
B: Smart Weapons

J: Spices, 20g
B: Smart Weapons

1802AD

I: Integrated Defense, 310g
B: Oil

A: Dyes, Saltpeter, 18g
B: Oil

R: 11gpt 20g
B: Nuclear Power

C: Furs
B: Incense, 90g

F: 480g, ROP
B: Incense

G: 7gpt 38g
B: Incense

[Aeson]

I haven't done much else besides trading and building up military/improvements. I decided to go with a (un)conventional military, lots of aircraft carriers, battleships... I've even built some nuclear subs, stealth bombers , jet fighters, an aegis cruiser, and tactical nukes. It's my very first time building any of these units. I almost built a stealth fighter, but that would just be insane.

Shortly after I caught up in tech, the whole world went to war. The main targets were the Americans and Japanese, but only the Japanese really took any losses. I sent a couple transports of MA's, MI's, and settlers up to scavenge some land, claiming a large portion of former Japanese territory. I claimed a few luxuries; 2 silks, 1 wine. Also claimed a lot of resources; 2 aluminum, 1 rubber, 2 uranium, 2 iron, 1 coal, 1 horse. All without a fight.

I'm just in the process of setting up my battle groups, no real plan on how I'm going to use them yet though. 3 of the AI are dependant on me for oil, or without it as I only have 2 spare. So 1 of them will be my first target. After the initial breakthrough they should fold quickly, not being able to build any MA's or MI's.

I think I'll try for a cultural victory, without taking everyone else out (leaving the AI with the most culture at least). Probably will need close to 200k by 2050AD, not sure if I can do it. It's 1844AD, and I'm not quite to 30k yet.

[FrustratedPoet]

That is very impressive Aeson.

I feel I should tell you, however, that the only victory conditions enabled are Conquest and Domination.
(See the bottom of Vel's first post in the original thread).

No cultural victory for you I'm afraid. Sorry.

[Aeson]

Oops... I read that Diplomatic and Spaceship were turned off in another post, didn't notice Cultural was too. That's ok, Cultural victories tend to be a bit boring.

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Aeson
That's ok, Cultural victories tend to be a bit boring.

Hehehe ... I know what you mean, my most recent game (my top score too, a little over 2,000 on Regent, not quite 65,000, eh? ) ended 2 turns before I was due to finish my Spaceship.
Suddenly I got that boring ... "oops, you've won by accident .. erm ... well done!" pop-up telling me that I had won a Cultural victory.

[DeepO]

Well, this is an interesting game for sure. I started the game, and was doing relatively well, but as I screwed up my first attempt of war I'll have to go back, and replay. But, no problem, it was the goal of this game to learn, and play in a situation that doesn't normally occur, and I can savely say this is the first time such a situation occurs in one of my games.

The key, I think, to this game is combined arms. This is exactly where I failed. I thought that MAs would be enough, well, think again.

Two things defined my play so far: trade (as Aeson pointed out), and 2 40-turn tech researches. As the continent had enough space for 2 additional cities (one below Babylon, as a money machine, the other next to the iron with 5 free tiles), I had put the iron city to a scientist as fast as I added a worker to it to get to size 2. This allowed me to research first radio, and then syn. fibers without paying for it.

The home continent was of course RRed asap, I built a few extra workers, and changed quite a few build orders to granaries. In those cities where I would lose shields, granaries were the first thing to build after the current build finished. Further, all cities received coal plants (the first time I actually have built those, normally I always get Hoover), and recycling centers once available. As the continent had no fresh water, nuclear plants were not possible, however I did build one of them in the southwestern city. I think it was a bug, as none of the other cities could build one.

Around 1800, I managed to create a beachhead on the largest continent, as the whole world was bashing the Russians (and razing their territory). I rushed an airport and a temple, and to my surprise the next city flipped to me a few years later! Not that it mattered, I could reach it with a MA in one turn, but still, it saved me the trouble of fighting for it.

In 1834 I thought I was ready to launch an attack on the Germans. I just researched syn. fibers my self ( and upgraded a few tanks), bought integrated defense, was one turn from completing Star Wars, but had no stealth yet. I had a moderate navy (4 BS, one nuke sub with tactical nuke loaded, one transport, one carrier with 2 bombers, 2 fighters). My goal was Berlin, as it contained 4 wonders (including Universal Suffrage) and controlled 6 wines. I had about 45 MAs, and a few MI standing by. More refinforcements were rolling in.

So I MPPed with both the Americans and the Indians (both at their own request), as they bordered the Germans. I slipped in a spy in the hopes of a war declaration, but it infiltrated Berlin without a sweat (why do spies always succeed when you want to trigger war?) So I renegotiated peace, let the negotiations fail, and was hoping to bash the 35 German MIs and 12 panzers in a few turns.

Boy, was I wrong.

Berlin is built on a hill (which I failed to notice the first turn), and even under constant barrage from my BS, it didn't lose pop fast enough to lose the metropolis defense bonus. I finally got it when they starved to pop 11, but those 10 MIs and a few riflemen costed me my whole attack force. I lost over 50 MAs there, and when I took it I had nothing left to continue the fight. Meanwhile, the Indians were happy to relieve the Germans from their spice city (which was a secondary target for me), I didn't get a leader, and the Russians were attacking me from the other side. As the whole world was chasing the Russians and Germans by now, I feared I was going to lose the domination to either the Indians, French or the Chinese. So, a replay was in order, this time a bit better thought out.

When I go back, these are the things I will pay more attention too:

• Combined arms: this is one of the few times you really need either lots of bombers, lots of BSes, or lots of radar artilleries. MAs alone are much too costly, you never are able to reinforce your troops at the rate you're loosing them
• more MAs: 45 MAs is a joke when you're fighting 35 MIs. Especially when one city is protected with 10 MIs, it takes way too long to gain anything. This war was dragging from the start. You need those extra MAs as you can be sure you lose them in a 2:1 ratio, sometimes even worse. Next time I'll need at least 150 MAs or I won't start a war.
• look out for defensive bonusses! When your MAs are fighting infantry, maybe a few MIs, you just roll over them. Not so when the majority of defensive troops is MI, it changes the game a lot
• multiple invasion points: as I had a beach head, I figured a traditional invasion on a choke point was not needed. Now I realize it would have helped tremendously if I had blocked off Berlin from the East of the German territory. The attack was too slow, a blitzkrieg tactic was not possible. So you have to counter reinforcements.
• mobilization: I did mobilize, but only in the year I started my attack. Next time, a few turns earlier would have helped a lot. Okay, no rushed temples in the new territories, but you have to out-produce the AI, which is hard when you only have 13 cities (of which 3 were still producing libraries)
• GA: I did built one bowman to trigger the GA, but was too late in using it. After you take Germany's aluminium and oil (which I was trading to them), longbowmen appear. Ideal for a bowman to win from, and I had planned this, but forgot all about him until I figured I needed a replay.
• trade: looking at Aeson's list, I was still a little late acquiring all techs. I think the difference was that most of the times I took the cheapest tech, without being able to trade it to anyone, as everybody allready had it. Paying more for a tech which still had some trade opportunities would be better. But still, apart from Stealth I was only some 10 turns behind Aeson, which I consider good enough. After all, I'm no Civ-god
  Another reason might be that the AI research was a bit slowed, in my games the AI started to fight a lot amongst each other when I was entering the modern age. I was only a few turns behind for SDI, and a few AIs didn't had it yet.
  What did surprise me was that Aeson did not research anything on his own, which was possible for at least radio and syn fibers. So it is possible to improve some more...

I hope I will be able to replay this evening, it is a very nice game. Thanks Vel for the challenge, I loved it!

DeepO

[Aeson]

MA's against purely MI's in large cities is very hard without an initial army or two. No previous army means no heroic epic for more leaders to turn into armies, no building armies yourself with the military academy, and no pentagon for bigger armies. MA armies are the key to breaking through a Modern AI's MI defenses without high casualty rates.

My combined arms forces were pretty ineffective themselves. I could take several cities, but only at very high loss rates. My Stealth Bombers didn't do much good, Radar Artillery is going to be the key I think, at least until I can get a couple of leaders. My whole plans were really messed up when one of my 3 oils moved to India, which was the one AI that hadn't had oil and I wasn't trading it to them. I realize now why I never built most of those units, as they are less than useful. A pure MA, Radar Artillery (with a few MI guards per stack), Transports, and Battleships force is probably what is called for.

I think most trading schemes would end up about the same date, even though they will take paths slightly different from each other. The biggest trade IMO is to get refining on the first turn, and trade away your oil sources, that really gets the ball rolling. In my game I did try the 1 researcher 40 turn ploy too, but always ended up having to trade for the techs well before the 40 turns were up. I think I was at 22 turns or something like that when the AI got Synthetic Fibers on my game. This is probably because the AI's weren't warring at all, so overall tech rate was a bit faster. If I had gone for recycling (instead of Synthetic Fibers) myself I think I had enough time to research it. This type of trading situation is something I've never had to try before (even OCC spaceship tries are usually much closer to the lead in tech), definitely room for improvement still!

A lot of good points in your post DeepO. I'm thinking about playing this again from the start myself. Germany would definitely be a better first target than India. I'm too used to the MA slaughters (led by MA armies) that happen if you get them about the same time the AI gets Computers, and thus hasn't done much to modernized their forces.

[DeepO]

Aeson, I agree completely regarding the MAs versus MIs. I was thinking radars as well, but there is one downside to this: for several turns I was not producing much useful in my cities, except BSs. As this is an archipelago map, they can reach nearly all cities, and can be built at a time that no radars are available yet. I fear that when they get available, I'll like MAs or tanks (to be upgraded) more... however, radars have a better chance of actually hitting a MI. I'll give it some thought before I build masses of them

About the tech: you might be right that refining would be a better first choice. I beelined my trades so I could start on radio right away, buying electronics from the start (first couple of turns had a scientist from another city, until I built the iron size 2 one). But, this left me no option to buy refining, it was too costly. I think (but am not sure anymore) that I bought sanitation instead. And, I had to wait a couple of turns before radio completed to get to the modern age, turns that might be used better as well. Perhaps it is possible to first buy refining, and using oil buying electronics in the same turn, that would still make radio a nice one-researcher tech.

What syn. fibers is concerned: my AIs were as fast as yours to get it, I think I was lacking some 20 turns too. But I didn't care, I was not going to war that early, so I was building tanks, and saving some cash to upgrade them. In the mean time I could still buy the rest of the tech tree. And, the more tanks I could build, the faster my attack was going to be: with so few cities, building a tank and upgrading seems to be a lot better than building an MA, as it will take longer.

BTW, my last few trades, like yours, were just gold, not gpt trades. And in 1834 I could cancel all resources and incense trades if I would have wanted that (some of the incense was being traded for other luxuries). I wanted to keep my options open.

It always is nice to see the difference in evolving games, I too lost an oil early on (I don't know to whom, I didn't pay attention), and lost my uranium as well. The first time it just shifted a few tiles, but a few turns later it was gone completely. I didn't use it for much, as I had already built 2 tacticals (just in case, not planning on using them)

In attach the minimap of 1850, the year in which I decided this was not going the right way. You can see that the Japanese are destroyed and some of the Russian cities, which became German first, are now French. The Germans are about finished (I did take one further city that turn, and they lost another to the Indians before I could get to it), and Babylon is relatively speaking still the smallest civ around

DeepO

[Velociryx]

Glad you guys are enjoying it!

I played to 1979 so far...yowza...I'm not sure if I can win via domination before the clock runs out!

Unlike you guys, who seem to have had a long stretch of peace, the whole world went ape$hit shortly after I took the game up again!

I started cranking out the tanks, and while I was doing that, loaded two settlers and two of my infantry onto a Galleon (I know I was the only wooden ship on the water!).

My settler transport paid off....Japan and The Rus had formed an ill-fated coalition against Germany, India, France, and the USA, and were both getting ground into dust. Germany graciously asked me if I wanted to give my army some combat experience by joining in the party, and before I even had my first tanks online, I readily agreed (got ROP and Alliance). So basically, I bottom fed.

Founded two new cities on the German/Indian mainland, had the distinction of removing Japan entire from the game (captured one city on the island to the far north of German/Indian holdings (America was an island hopping HOUND tho...got all the rest), and one on the German mainland (which flipped to Germany about three turns later, taking my two tanks with it). Did some island hopping of my own and reduced The Rus to one stinking, miserable city in the far southern polar regions, and Babylon was officially on the map.

No sooner had that war pretty well wrapped up when a new coalition formed...America and India vs. France and Germany....the battle of the titans with poor little Babylon swept along for the ride. My entire attack force consisded of some thirty MA's, 4 BB's and 4 trannies. One airport rushed on the German mainland and the fleet near home....MA's about evenly split between the German continent and home.

So....taking a lesson from my native south, we did what Robert E. Lee would do when hopelessly outnumbered.....we kept our force divided and attempted to outflank our opponent, striking toward Deli with one group, and smashing onto the island that France and India were battling over (the one to the north and east of Babylon proper).

That's when the nukes started flying.

I didn't outright SEE any nukes, mind you...but as my army approached Deli, I saw that it had been reduced from size 23 to size 4, and had OCEANS of pollution around it. No dice, then....we re routed our German contingent to the southern portion of India...it looked as though the Germans were well on their way to reducing northern india to rubble anyway.

America booted me off of the island north of my German mainland holdings with ease, and, using their burgeoning naval might, kept me from even trying to get it back. I watched in horror as a lone Aegis cruiser of theirs munched FOUR attacking German battleships (which amounted to my entire attack fleet!). Considering that America had nine of those puppies...I kept my lil' navy closer to home, and prayed that none of those big bad wolves decided to come hunting.

The US also landed forces in India near Deli in a splended moment of AI strategy, in an effort to relieve their allies.

They and the Germans got into a TITANIC MA/MI battle, which was great for me...while they were slugging it out, I plodded along and kept capturing Indian cities and/or raze and replant my own settlers (brazenly walking them on German railways right through the thickest parts of the fighting).

When the dust settled, Babylon had truly become a world power, with significant holdings on the German mainland (eight cities, counting the two I founded at the start of the last war), and a smattering of cities on various islands.

There was one point that left me a little concerned, when my French and German allies stopped talking with me, and suddenly got annoyed. They promptly made peace with the US, leaving me to fight the beast alone.

America easily captured one of my german cities, and it took everything I had to get it back. Afterwards, I begged for peace (parting with 230g for the pleasure) and the American giants grudgingly accepted.

Time to consolidate.

Nope...strike that...no time to consolidate. France declared war on China, who had been peacefully sailing along in the sea of war.

Well....not in my backyard! So...here we go again....to war.

America jumped in with both feet and they and the French had some really quite classy naval battles. France built the HELL out of some subs! Fortunately for me, aside from bombing all my terraforming efforts to nothing, the Americans left me alone, and I sailed my entire navy (which had grown to 5bb, 5 trannies) 'round my homeland and landed thirty MA's and 10 settlers on China's doorstep.

China's culture wasn't great, but was bigger than mine, so I figured I'd slash and burn most of it, and keep the minnows, and that's what we did.

Three cities captured on the first turn, we basically ran through China like they weren't even there. Oh sure, we were losing lots of MA's, but with a rushed in airport, we could get reinforcements there very quickly indeed, and thus, we stole France's attempt at becoming a globe spanning empire. They snagged three of China's cities, but we got the rest, and truly carried the bulk of the fight.

China had a couple cities in the far south, near where we had relegated the Russians to living, and I had loaded transports to head that direction....and then I thought about....balance.

So far, I had been reacting to events, rather than creating them.

That was no way to win the game, especially with time running short.

What was needed was something decisive.

The USA had to go.

*GULP*

So....I brazenly asked for German assistance against the powerful Americans, and got it! They started slugging it out with the mighty American navy, and my small fleet inched its way northward.

Blessedly, aside from assorted bombing raids which tattered us, and one pesky destroyer that sneaked in a kill of one of my damaged bb's, we arrived safe in our northern Germany holdings (where an airport had been rushed, and 40 ma's stood ready).

Loaded up thirty nine ma's and a settler, attacked the american mainland and burned...I forget which city to the ground. Withstood a half decent (about ten mi's) counter attack, got a leader!!!! Built a city the following turn, made an army, and braced for the real counter attack.

47 mi's and 18 ma's struck my force on the following turn. I don't know if I'd have survived or no if I hadn't made an army there. Not sure. But that was a very tense turn indeed, watching a seemingly endless stream of American hardware plow into us.

Airport rushed, reinforcements pouring through just as quick as we could....and considering America's cultural dominance, I dared not risk keeping many US cities, so most were burned, and German immigrants brought over to resettle. We lost....oh God, I shudder to think how many MA's we lost taking the American mainland, but in the end, we got all their cities save one (Germany snagged it), reducing America to the islands north and west of its former home, with Babylon large and in charge of the American and Chinese heartland, with scattered holdings elsewhere.

Now the question....1970. Not much time left.

Germany or France? Germany would be both easier and harder, but I dunno.....

-=Vel=-

[alexman]

I have played only up to 1770, but can someone take a look at this save and tell me why I am suddenly at war with Japan next turn? Am I missing something or is it a bug?

[DeepO]

Vel, any idea on how many MAs you burnt? If you are doing it without any radars, it has to be huge...

Don't blame me for having a relatively long peaceful buildup time, I had to give in to demands a few times, but as I tried to rotate whom I traded techs from, everybody was happy, and both Americans and Indians were graceful. I was considering joining the modern wars to try to catch some crums falling off the big boys' table, but I thought I was much too weak. I know that I should be more bold, but even now, while waiting for Star Wars and MAs, I was not performing good.

The difference of course is that I had an ambitous goal: Berlin seemed to be perfect for a palace, and even if Aeson is right in the power of armies, still my first leader would go into a palace. I wanted to enter the world with a bang, instead of waiting for the crums and building it up from there. And I still plan to do so, if the AIs will leave me alone in my replay, Berlin is my target again. But you can be sure I bring massive force this time around, up until the point that I don't care anymore if I lose 50 MAs on it.

Another reason why I wanted to remain peaceful is my fear of nukes. I really don't like them, but love the tension (kind of like irl). Waiting to complete Star wars seemed to be a good, all be it tense, solution. If anyone tries to nuke me after that, they are going to regret it.

One question though, I guess that your BB means the same as my BS, but how do you get to that abbreviation? I always thought BB meant Brigitte Bardot. It sure makes reading your post interesting, if you mentally replace madame Bardot each time you encounter BB

DeepO

[DeepO]

alexman, I want to, but my ISP has other plans... Internet has been an on/off thing all day. Tomorrow I'm going to ask my ISP what they are doing to their servers. It took me half an hour to post last post, so I hope this gets through

DeepO

[Aeson]

I just checked the 1570 save and you can do quite nicely trading for Refining, Atomic Theory, and Electronics.

France: Refining for Incense, 17gpt 14g
Russia: Atomic Theory, 1gpt 17g for Oil
China: Electronics, Furs (renegotiate) for Incense, 41gpt 4g

Also it's best to get one more luxury, and trade away the 3rd spare Incense.

India: 327g for Incense
France: Ivory for 12gpt 12g

This allows all the workers to be working, except for the one scientist researching Radio. I also disbanded all but 2 of the riflemen to rush the Coal Plants and Factories in the bigger cities. Ended the turn with 516g and 113gpt, which will get over 1000g nicely by the time the Wall Street is finished.

Alexman -

That is very weird, I can't see any reason why you go to war with Japan. I tried renegotiating the peace treaty and nothing seems to work. My advice is to load up some settlers and send them to claim some of that Japanese land that is opening up. It looks like they are losing ground, and having their cities razed. Should be an easy way to claim some resources, one Uranium is already there for the taking.

[Velociryx]

Sorry for the confusion, DeepO....a holdover from the days of regularly playing Starfleet Battles...BB is the SFB designation for a BattleShip...but I must admit, I liked reading my post better with your interpretation...lol!

-=Vel=-

PS: Best guess...prolly some 200 MA's lost in all....YOW!~

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Velociryx
4 BB's and 4 trannies.

The word 'trannies' is rather open to alternative interpretations too.

Combined arms Brigitte Bardot and Transexual attacks on the enemy Civs?



Is this part of your new strategic thinking, mate?

[Nakar Gabab]

Just a sweet transvestite from transexual Babylonia, as it were?

How has naval combat wound up playing out here? Was it a major force, or just an inconvenience? It's kind of a watery map, so I'd figure you'd NEED it... but the way the AI is about poor sea management, I suppose it could wind up being a letdown.

[DeepO]

Alexman, I can't find anything either. It seems a bug, this shouldn't happen. You might want to send that save to Firaxis...

Vel, 200 MAs seems to be reasonable for the territory you gained. But still, aren't the massive losses what makes you think that you could have trouble finishing before 2050? Wouldn't combined arms, for instance with radars, be worth the extra effort?

Aeson, thanks for trying that tech path, trading refining first. I will surely do it like that, putting 1 scientist on radio from turn one. Maybe this means that discovering radio is going to be the bottleneck for entering the modern age again, but if so I'll use the time to build up my treasury...

It's interesting to see you disbanded the riflemen, I was playing with the idea myself. Maybe it will be beneficial, but I'm not sure about the effects in the long term. I kept most of my riflemen to provide some happiness bonusses when I started the war and changed govs. I didn't want to build MI for the homefront, as you can be more or less sure no AI will launch a big invasion on your island. Do you intend on leaving these cities undefended, apart from a mobile defense force? Or do you want to build modern defenders for all cities once you have the spare production?

I stroke bit of luck today: I caught a cold (yeah, I know, not really a logical thing to have in this summery weather) But for once I don't mind: what can a man do when he is not allowed to leave the house? Right. Fire up the engines, Hammurabi, here I come

DeepO

[jshelr]

Third World Country Does Zero Extra

Sizing up Babylon's plight, I took a bridge players' approach and assumed factors beyond my control would turn our favorably. If anyone attacked, we would be toast. So, Babylon forgot building a defense and concentrated on the economy and tech. There was no other way to even think about winning. Strangely, everything did go right.

„« Set research to zero
„« Traded spices for refining, steel, combustion
„« Traded oil for mass production and atomic theory
„« Upgraded riflemen and then traded the only rubber for electronics and two other techs that I can't decipher in my notes. (The second thing that goes as you age is your handwriting.)
„« With the only rubber out on loan, Babylon turned to building a blue water fleet and adding city improvements, except no universities since there was going to be no research.
„« Artillery defense strategy was initiated by putting the capital build queue enitrely on artillery. (Really, there was no defense strategy except hoping they would leave me alone for awhile)

Being Lucky Is Better Than Being Good

All the other civs started a huge war with each other. The left hand side of the trading wheel was at war with the right hand side (including Joan on the right). Nothing could have been better for Babylon's chances.

In 1650, traded an oil to Russia for flight and radio. This kicked Babs into the modern era, so we also got rocketry. Had one aluminum and traded that away immediately for more tech. It was too soon to use the aluminum.

No uranium. Intend to buy our way to modern armor and bypass nukes entirely.

Population was growing. So, traded for two lux.

First hospital in 1700.

When rubber came back, started a round of tanks and then resold zero-extra rubber for nuclear power.

GDP is still only 481 in 1740.

In 1762, we're building transports, bombers, artillery, and battleships.

Eureka! Uranium is discovered -- a new source -- in 1768. Traded for space travel and satellites. (The small land area was rich in lux and strategic resources.)

By 1774, Modern Armor and nukes are being built. Babs passes Russia on the score page.

With a round of nukes started, traded zero-extra uranium to France for gold used to buy laser.

GDP 638 in 1788.

By 1832, covered mountains and hills on the coasts with defensive units to block invasion to "safe haven" tiles.

1818 -- more uranium is discovered!!

1820 -- America temporarily takes a city on Chinese mainland. (Triggers a meeting of my general staff.)

1848 -- invade China. Goes smoothly. Japan has also taken a Chinese city. We overrun all the cities in four turns. Japan then demands "furs." We politely sign off. They declare war.

Bribe America, India, France, and Germany (all cheaply!) to declare war on Japan. Japan never darkens Babylon's door. We take this opportunity to capture Japan's "Chinese" city. They have a MA army inside and one heroic Babylon MA nearly takes it out single handed. Second MA finishes the job.

By 1862, conquest of China has been completed with temples being built everywhere. More culture buildings to follow. Bonehead move with leader used to build a nuke.

Babylon has the top GDP in 1876. We're still in democracy they've been at war forever.

We acquire all the remaining techs, having extorted some old, bypassed ones from China, and build out manufacturing plants and nuclear power where possible. Next we tool up to invade either India or America.

Frankly, the leadership was getting tired at this point and lost focus on the art of war. Poor decision to invade America because it was what we wanted -- not what was easily available. Quickly capture the lux city on the south end. But then attack neighboring city with too few MA, getting turned back by 4 artillery and MI stack. Abe attacks with a few MA. (Best AI defense I've seen.) Bogged down. Need to import some bombers and radar arty.

Probably should have targeted India. Abe has a reasonably modern defense.

It looks very likely that the game will end with Bab the largest civ. It look less likely that we can reach that stage soon enough to win. It will be fun to try. Starting well into the game like this has been a good idea and the setup was cleverly done. (Thanks to Vel. There was some fresh water on the Southeast end. I always use governors to manage moods and so was a bit steamed when disorder appeared on the second turn.)

[DeepO]

This looks like a succesful combined arms approach as well, together with some good planning. I surely hope that by tonight I also have some good results to post.

A few questions:

• do you have an idea how many MAs it took to conquer China in 4 turns?
• Could anyone explain to me how you can trade away a rubber that you don't have in reserve? There were lots of times I wanted to do something like this, but I'm missing something, I can't select it during negotations.
• Did you use those nukes? or were they just a deterrant?

Spending a leader on a nuke seems to be a very strange decision. I can imagine you don't need a palace swing, but an army is always a very welcome thing...

DeepO

[jshelr]

_________________________________________
This looks like a succesful combined arms approach as well, together with some good planning. I surely hope that by tonight I also have some good results to post.

A few questions:

do you have an idea how many MAs it took to conquer China in 4 turns?

Could anyone explain to me how you can trade away a rubber that you don't have in reserve? There were lots of times I wanted to do something like this, but I'm missing something, I can't select it during negotations.

Did you use those nukes? or were they just a deterrant?

Spending a leader on a nuke seems to be a very strange decision. I can imagine you don't need a palace swing, but an army is always a very welcome thing...
__________________________________________

China had been at war with both America and Japan. They were a bit depleted. As I recall, there were 8 transports with MA, MI, a settler, because sometimes you just want to build instead of using Aeson's recycling blitz, and 8 arty. So, probably 50 MA. An even larger stack did much worse against the better prepared American homeland later.

You can trade your only resource by clicking on it and asking what they will give you for it. I think this is how it's done. If that doesn't work, play around a bit, because you definitely can select the resource somehow. There is a recent thread on "the meaning of zero extra."

I try not to use nukes. Moral problems, etc. Anyway, if you do use nukes, be prepared to have everyone declare war on you immediately. When the fleet embarked for China, there were just three turns left on the missle defense small wonder. Babylon is too small to survive if hit successfully, so I actually waited a while to get close to finishing that wonder.

The palace in China would have been a good idea, no question. Spending a leader on a nuke was stupid. It was not my fault, however. It was USAIR's fault. My 6 pm fllight home on Sunday left at 11.30pm. Sleep deprivation was taking over. If this had been my own game, it was a definite reload. I have no idea what I was thinking.

As for using the leader for an army, I'm pretty much alone on not using armies with MA. I like to move them one at a time, and with stacks as big as they get at this stage, who cares about armies? Answer, everyone else. But I don't really get why??

[DeepO]

jshelr, thanks for the answers. I just tried giving away a resource I had in use, and was much surprised it worked this time! I have tried to do it like that before, but was not able to trade it. I don't know what was wrong.

I'm also morally against nukes, and try not to use them. In the few games I used them, it was a last ditch attempt to not being out-spaceraced by 1 or 2 turns. But lately a space race has never been close on emperor, so no need to nuke the AI.

And in this game, I guess you will be the only one who doesn't like armies full of MA. When fighting infantry you are right that a MA army is not very useful, because some of the MA rarely get used due to a lack of movement points. However, when facing multiple MIs it's a completely different story.

For Berlin, I lost over 50 MAs for 10 MIs, and if I had 10 MA armies I would probably have lost one army at most. The reason is that if you can't get a MI the first turn, you have a chance of it promoting. If you don't get it the second time, you can be sure it promotes (or it has promoted the first time). If you don't destroy it in the third attack, it will promote again. So, nearly all Berlin MIs were elite buy the time they died, while only a few of them started out as vets. It is very frustrating to see a conscript MI surviving 5 MAs, dying as an elite when the 6th MA is down to one HP. With an army, it wouldn't had the chance of promoting, and only one three-unit-army would suffice for a conscript MI.

Add to this that with an army, the whole army only dies after you lost all HPs of all units, instead of dying MA per MA, and you gain a lot when using them. Sometimes it means your individual MAs in the armies are underused, but I'll gladly take that disadvantage over having to replenish my troops every single turn.

And of course the last thing is that a succesful army means you can build the HE (and the academy as well, but if you don't like armies that doesn't matter), which leads to more GLs.

DeepO

[jshelr]

Deepo

Thanks for the army comments. You may be correct for the kind of game we have here. Usually, I'm fixated on blitzing with MA. The arithmetic gets pretty daunting.

Suppose you have 15 cities to blitz and anticipate 4 units defending each city. Then you need 60 armies to take over in one turn. (They don't attack repeatedly do they?) However, at least normally, most of those 60 units would turn out to be sub MI, many infantry and even some riflemen. A stack of 80+ MA would have a reasonable chance of taking the whole civ out and would certainly take out most enemy cities.

In this game, where it looks like we will be knocking heads with MI for the most part, conserving units in armies may be the smart strategy and a calmer, multi-turn strategy for an attack may be the only realistic way to proceed. Give me some bombardment, please.

[DeepO]

jshelr, you wouldn't need 60 armies, if even something like that was possible. Just use a few of them to take the hardest defenders. For Berlin, I lost so many MAs because it was a metropolis, built on a hill. If only I would have had 3 armies, it would have saved me tens of units... and yes, they can attack multiple times, but in many cases that doesn't happen because you either run out of movement points, or you don't want to risk a half-beaten army and want to let it heal first.

Oh, a stack of 80 MAs was not enough to conquer the Germans in 10 turns, and they had some 10 cities. I lost more MAs then that for the few cities I took. The same reason: the defense bonusses were too big, and they had 35 MIs (a lot of them not even on the main continent, but divided over several islands) I needed artillery, and it was my mistake I didn't bring any. Armies were not possible, as it was the first military conflict for the Babs, so you need loads of combined arms... indeed, give me some bombardment

DeepO

[Txurce]

FOREWORD

I played up until 1830 before reading any spoilers. Thanks to not getting any help from Aeson, my trading for techs has been relatively abysmal. (I’ll have to replay down the road to see why I didn’t get as good deals… and had forgotten how to sell single resources. People also quit trading me techs for anything I could take back, because I declared war on Russia with a deal ongoing.) That said, I’m not sure it’s going to matter, because there’s more than one way to win in Civ3. We’ll see.

RETOOLING

Before taking on the world, 1570 Babylon needed to appraise where it stood, and how best to advance from there. In a nutshell, Babylon lacked the benefits of population and technology, as well as a credible defense.

Determined not to build units that were already outdated, the more advanced cities started to build artillery and some naval units, while the rest strove to complete their infrastructure.

Population increase was addressed by building three coastal cities, and granaries everywhere; later, the more populous cities would contribute workers to increase the others’ populations.

Research increased in a hodgepodge manner, as Babylon traded for some with incense and oil, paid for others, researched still more and – taking advantage of one beleaguered country unlikley to fight back, declared war on the doomed Russians in exchange for a good deal on motorized transportation. But Babylon had no intention of actually fighting for centuries.

GEOPOLITICS

Because the world was an archipelago, and the AI is notoriously bad at modern-era overseas invasions, it was unlikely that any other civ would come to dominate the world before Babylon could rise to its feet. But the likeliest candidate to do so would doubltess come from one of the four civs on the largest continent. And already a future behemoth was emerging: Japan, which took the lion’s share of the Russian cities.

In 1758 Babylon entered the modern era, still ranked last on the histograph despite Russia’s demise, but already up to second in manufactured goods. Its cities pumped out tanks that would later be upgraded to modern armor. They neglected air units, which would be postponed in a calculated risk until the advent of stealth technology. And in perhaps the biggest risk of all, Babylon’s hawks decided to begin its expansion without waiting to research SDI for the protection of their cities.

Babylon’s generals had predicted that their own first action would come against China, a relatively weak nation just to the west. But when Japan invaded France – a battle of behemoths - Babylon felt that it couldn’t afford to let Japan get too far ahead. The Babylonian transports were built on the east coast and… one turn after the French sued for peace after losing three cities… the Babylonian task force set sail in 1824 for the four cities on the French island southwest of its home continent. Babylon was counting on the just-completed Japanese war to have devastated the French military enough for its eight transports (52 MA, 12 MI) to establish a beachhead, with more transports being built.

THE FRANCO-BABYLONIAN WAR (1830-1842)

In 1830, with Japan already at war with neighboring Germany, the Babylonian armor landed on French soil. In one turn, its forces took the island, capturing the three smaller cities, and abandoning the large one in the north. (Babylon replaced it a few turns later.) Resistance consisted of a few MI and even fewer MA – no aircraft or atillery… a sign that France was indeed spent after its defeat at the hands of the Japanese. Babylon decided to go for broke, and invade the mainland.

In 1834, the Babylonian armor landed on the aluminum hill next to Lyons. In the next turn, armor took Lyons (which was looted and abandoned, and then Paris, in a bloody fight. One turn later, little Besancon fell, Babylon built a city on the aluminum deposit, and our armor poised to strike out. In 1840, our units took Tours, Rheims and Grenoble, leaving France with two small cities in the east and southeast, while its two northern cities fell to the Chinese.

Two turns later, the French were no more. A few units were lost in one culture flip, and our MA losses in the war totaled 39 out of 66 units. As expected, no GLs were generated. This was acceptable given our lack of artillery or aerial support. Babylon now planned to rebuild its armor, and supplement it with an effective air force. This would take a while, but it had achieved its primary objective: critical mass before 1850. While its population was still small, Babylon now ranked third on the globe in land, manufactured goods, and GNP. Its leaders saw no reason why, with research maxed out after France was culturally pacified, it wouldn’t become the #1 power in the next hundred years.

[vulture]

I posted the start of my story in a different thread 'cos I couldn't find this one. So a brief recap:

Like most other people I started mass gpt trades for techs, and also trading oil proved very lucrative (even when I needed it, it turned out to be profitable to trade *all* my oil away and then import some from another civ - I actually made a big profit by being the middle man in the oil business this way, buy buying oil from A and selling to B rather than letting A trade to B directly). I reached the modern age in 1670, and hit the end of the tech tree in 1824 (took longer than necessary 'cos I decided to research the last two techs myself, since I could get them in 8 turns).

I managed to engineer a golden age in 1772, thanks to the Russians leaving Novogrod defended by only a spearman, while an infantry wandered around the territory. Bombardment and marines took out the infantry, leaving the bowmen to take down the spearman (plus a few MA in case Russia drafted some extra defence in the interim).

Things were pretty quiet on the war front until the end of the tech tree was reached. France and America had a brief war, which cost France two isolated cities. Then I kicked off against Russia, and everyone else joined in. Russia was way down the tech tree and easy pickings for everyone, mostly Germany. I took 3 cities in total. As mentioned in my other post, my plan was to take out China next and shift my palace there to give me two productive islands.

The best laid plans of mice and vultures go astray however. Just when my convoy was on its way back from the Russia war (I got the small island with 2 cities way up north), and passing through German territory, Germany declared war and sunk my convoy. Scratch 8 artillery, two battleships and a few MA. This rapidly lead to a world war as we both used MPPs and alliances to bolster our side. It was Babylon, France and Japan against America, Germany, India and China (Russia being extinct).

I'd just like to take a moment to laugh at anyone who thinks cruise missiles are useless. When you've got cities that can churn out 1 a turn to give you a decent supply, there is no better way of keeping your shores clear (combined with artillery and bombers to soften the target up first). China must have lost 4 fully loaded transports and escorts for the price of 8 missiles, which is pretty cheap if you ask me. I rebuilt my military after the German disaster until I had enough to stage an invasion, and meanwhile had sunk pretty much the entire Chinese navy (the joys of having spies in every other civ).

A stealth bomber blitz seperated the southern four Chinese cities from the rest to slow down the MI stack response. Then I landed a few armies, lots of artillery and plenty of MI and MA on the mountains by the southern most town. It fell before the response team turned up. A turn later the 45 MI arrived on the mountains to reclaim their city. I didn't much like my odds, so I made my big mistake of the game and hit the stack with a tactical nuke.

What I overlooked was the fact that the AI would all launch a massive counterstrike. The combined nukes of all four nations at war with me came raining down - over 20 of them, not exactly sure how many. Thanks to the SDI only 6 of them hit, but still, having 6 of your 10 productive cities whacked is pretty nasty. So I responded i nkind (belatedly) and launched my entire ICBM arsenal (kept the tac nukes in reserve 'cos they're great for taking down stacks). It turns out that my allies had responded in a similar manner, and that no-one else seemed to have SDI, so the other civs took a serious mullering. Will try to get around to posting the screenshot of the radioactive empire of the Babylonians.

Tempting to give up at this point, but I decided to struggle on to the bitter end for the comedy value. I'll admit to doing a quick reload shortly after this. I changed government to Communism, and then instantly regretted it when I remembered just how long it would take my workers to clean up the 37 tiles of pollution I had. So I reloaded from just before I switched govs (and as a fringe benefit, the change in sea levels that changed Babylon from a port to being entirely land-locked failed to re-occur). I churned out a pile of workers and set to a massive clean up and rebuilding my lost city improvements effort. Not to mention replacing the lost MI's from the cities (fortunately I made it a policy a long time ago to always stack excess units well away from all cities just to avoid nuke damage if a city gets hit).

By the time I got down to 20 polluted tiles I'd gone from 6th to 1st in the pollution stakes. The AI just doesn't clean up well. As you can imagine global warming was wiping out usable land at a rate that wasn't even funny.

I struggled on through China, and completed the takeover in the 1970's. By this point I'd finished the rebuilding of the mainland, and was actually 1st in terms of current score and power. The other civs just couldn't do the rebuilding infrastructure thing, and all of them were lacking either oil, rubber of aluminium, meaning that they just weren't producing any more modern units. So now I'm waltzing through India, takng 7 cities in 4 turns of war. Everyone is at war with everyone else most of the time (aided I suspect by the bug where you end up at war without either side wanting it - I can'y stay at peace with America for more than four turns before I get the "We've lost out supply of dyes" message (no decleration of war from either side) and once again we're fighting and America is waiting longer each time to bargain for peace and I regain my dyes supply). In 1984 I'm the only one with any nukes left (I've rebuily a good pile of ICBMs) and my militay is the only one adding modern units to it. I'm still way behind on the histograph because of the long period of being so far behind, although I'm the big dog on the block now. I don't think I'm going to have enough time to eke out a victory. With constructive use of nukes I might be able to cripple everyone else enough to boost my histograph score enough, but I doubt it.

[vulture]

A screenshot of post-apocalyptic Babylon from 1876 AD. As you can see, both China and Babylon are in a pretty poor state right now.

[vulture]

Now the minimap from 1986 AD, when Babylon is beginning to expand at a nicely increasing rate.

[vulture]

And the power graph for the game to 1986 AD. The nuclear strikes don't appear to have had any dramatic effect on the relative powers at the time, so everyone must have taken pretty similar levels of damage. Babylon is gaining power at an exponential rate (as ever) so I might just manage to pull out a victory...